OT: Range Report-Original Springfield Trapdoor-photos

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 13, 2008 6:32 pm

Well men, last week I received my original Springfield Trapdoor Model 1884 45-70 rifle (with retractable round bayonet) that I won in the Kull & Supica auction. The cartouche on the stock says 1891. The bore is shiny, with sharp rifling and no pitting. I have a real weakness for bores like that. This is going to be my black powder rifle, but I was very curious to see what it would do with smokeless. Here's a couple pics of the rifle, with its 32 & 5/8" barrel ...

I loaded up 19 rounds using 24 grains of 5744 and a single sheet of 1-ply toilet paper under a 405 grain plain base cast bullet, sized to .458. I wasn't too optimistic about the accuracy since reading Mike Venturino's Shooting Buffalo Guns of the Old West. He said that it is common for the trapdoors to have oversize bores. I haven't slugged this one yet. He also mentioned that the 405 grain cast bullets were not all that great for accuracy in his gun, but the 520 grain bullets shot great. I'm ordering a 520 grain mould for this rifle.

Well it was off to the range. I set a target up at 50 yards to adjust the sights. Talk about shooting high! I stuck a second, smaller target on the bottom of the paper and adjusted the windage. Now I was ready for 100 yards. I shot the first 5 rounds .... high and a little to the left. I adjusted the windage and aimed lower for the next 5-shot group. The dadgummed rifle shoots 14" high at 100 yards, and I have the rear sights down as low as she'll go! Looks like I'm going to have to install a higher front sight. I don't know what the 1800's US army was thinking when it came to close-combat (i.e., closer than 150 yards). Maybe you aimed for the fellow's crotch. Anyway, here's the more on-center, second 5-shot group ....

The five-shot group was 4 & 5/16" at 100 yards. The bore had no leading, so far as lead deposites go, but there was a thin, grey lead wash on the walls of the bore. This tells me my .458 bullets are probably a bit undersize for the groove diameter.

Chrono results for 24 grains 5744, 1 sheet 1-ply TP & 405 FP, PB bullet: 1,278 fps, E.S. = 53 fps, S.D. = 16 fps.

I figure that black powder will bump up this soft cast, plain base bullet a bit better, so that's my next project. The 500 grain bullet mould could take a month or so.

For my final 5 rounds, I figured I'd try some offhand shooting. I have to say that the boys back in the 1800's must have had one strong trigger finger. I practically had to throw a rope around the trigger and hitch the other end to the pick-up truck just to pull the trigger. That's a bit of an exaggeration, but that durn-tootin' trigger and that massive hammer time makes for some interesting offhand shooting. I decided I will not post a photo of the results. There is a limit to how much a fellow should humiliate himself on the web, and that target was past the limit. All I'll say is that at least all five shots were on the paper, and that was about it. Obviously, I'm going to need a bit more offhand practice with this old girl.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue May 13, 2008 6:41 pm

Actually, you did aim at the fellow's crotch...

Neat gun though!

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Tue May 13, 2008 6:44 pm

Great report, cant wait to hear how those 520's shoot.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue May 13, 2008 6:55 pm

Great one!

Paul Jenkins · Post by **Paul Jenkins** » Tue May 13, 2008 6:57 pm

Sir,
That is one beautiful rifle. I also would like you to post resuls using the 520 gr. Good luck.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Tue May 13, 2008 7:03 pm

Excellent report Kirk! Being an affectionado of the Springfield Trapdoor makes this all the more interesting. Don't be surprised if the BP has just the opposite effect in regards to bumping up the bullets, I've just cast up some hollow base bullets from a Lee 405-459HB mould that actually dropped at .4615 nominal. Hopefully this will stop my tumbling in the TD's. Smokeless has never been a problem, I use 28-29 grains of H4198 for an average of 1270 fps over the course of a year. on my 32 5/8" barrel, my front sight is .250" off the barrel (I believe standard height is .187"), the blade I received from Lodgewood Mfg. It helped tremendously. My carbines have them from .375 to .673.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Tue May 13, 2008 7:04 pm

Great looking rifle! I've seen some of your other post so I'm sure you will figure it out.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 13, 2008 7:23 pm

Old Time Hunter, glad to hear you are familiar with these old rifles. I'd like to take the wood off just to clean up the crud a bit. Besides taking off the rings, and the upper and lower tang screws, what other screws do I need to remove. I don't want to pull a screw and cause a bunch of things to fall apart inside, if I can help it.

Marlin .35 · Post by **Marlin .35** » Tue May 13, 2008 7:30 pm

That sure is a fine rifle Kirk. It must be a blast to shoot. 520gr report please!!! Art

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Tue May 13, 2008 7:35 pm

Kirk I don't know why you keep messing around with them ol' dirty, nasty guns. I mean if you save up your money, you could get yourself something nice!8)

Good report.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:07 pm

Kirk - Add my name to the list of guys who want to hear more as you experiment with your new acquisition. Very Cool ! I hope you find some loads that lift your point of aim a bit !! Good luck. - DixieBoy

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:12 pm

Kirk.. You have to be VERY careful if you pull the lock out of it's mortice..The fit is so tight that the wood at the edge of the mortice will chip out very easily.. You can reduce trigger pull by thinning the trigger sping...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:14 pm

Nice Kirk. Seems last time I saw you (only time

) we were standing in Cody admiring something very similar for a very long time. I recall your lovely wife peeking around the corner a few times, then finally sending one of your kids to tell you where they would be.

I figure Kirk must be rich, cause he sure didn't get that beautifull wife of his with his looks.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:16 pm

Kirk, so much to say here for once! First off, I'm thrilled for your purchase. I've had my eye on Springfields since I bought my 71/84 Mauser in 11mm. It is the German equivalent of your Springfield!

IMR 4198 does seem to work well as a smokeless load using bullets of 20-1 or made from wheel weights. I don't use a filler of any kind myself, but I have been tempted to try it. The loads are bit position sensitive, but when I tip the barrel back before shooting are very consistant.

Obviously you need to slug the barrel to see what size bullet you need.

You may want to check with Buffalo Arms for your 500 grain bullets. I suspect they already have something available, but shipping to Canada may make it financially undesirable.

What were the battle sights regulated to and using what load? My Mauser is 200, 300 and 400 meters + for the various fixed and fold up sights using a 400 grain bullet at 1400 fps. It shoots about 10" high at 100 but is spot on for everything else. You really need to find out what the original load was for your Springfield and duplicate it as close as you can with a similar weight bullet. I'm wondering if its the legendary 500 grain round nose. Your sights should work better when you know what load they were calibrated for.

For some reason, a roll crimp really destroys accuracy in the Mausers. I suspect the same with your rifle, but you will have to experiment and see. Try a light taper crimp to push the brass back to its original configuration before belling and no more. Works wonders on the Mauser.

If your going the BP route, I could probably refer you to a nice fella who can routinely hit the 1500 yard targets at Billy Dixon. I think he would have some good advice for you.

Please keep me informed on your progress. I look forward to hearing more about it!

-Tutt

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:25 pm

A couple of other thoughts. If your going to disassemble the gun, and it hasn't been done in a long time you will have to be very careful with the screws. One crafty way of removing stuck screws is to place the gun in a vise or just a pad on a drill press. Using the right screw bit from a gunsmithing kit (exceedingly important!), place the bit in the drill chuck. Lower the ram into the screw slit, and SLOWLY rotate the chuck by hand. It will loosen the stuck screw without damaging it at all. A reall neat trick that was shown to me.

While you have the action out of the rifle, you can probably remove and take apart the trigger assembly if you have some brass punches. Then just polish the trigger mating surfaces and put a bit of grease on them. You could probably put a lighter spring in their too, but that will take a bit more work. I'm sure that trigger can be much improved upon.

Well, if I think of anything more, I'll post it.

Again, congrats!

-Tutt

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:25 pm

sore shoulder wrote:I figure Kirk must be rich, cause he sure didn't get that beautifull wife of his with his looks.

I'll say! I still can't figure out why she married me, cause I sure ain't rich. She thinks I'm the best thing that ever happened to her and I just scratch my head and figure she must have a highly unusual and extremely rare form of insanity.

Ben: Thanks for that tip, Ben. I'm kinda waiting until I've collected some good advice like that before starting to take it apart.

Cowboy Tutt: I had an old 11 mm back when I was a teenager. Bought it for $2 from a local farmer and had a ball with it. Dominion still made ammo for it at that time. (just goes to show just how old a geezer I am.)

P.S., Tutt, thank you for those additional tips.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:30 pm

KirkD wrote:[I had an old 11 mm .

My shirt sleeve conversion says that would be around .433 calber?

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:34 pm

Kirk, no problem. I didn't invent any of this stuff, just passing it along. I'm currently working on a "heavy bullet" load for my Mauser as well. I hope to have all the components to test the loads for accuracy by the end of the month. I'll report back when I do.

-Tutt

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:34 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
KirkD wrote:[I had an old 11 mm .
My shirt sleeve conversion says that would be around .433 calber?

Yes, the cartridges made by Dominion were labelled 43 caliber, if I recall correctly. The factory bullet was cast and weighed around 385 grains and chugged along at something like 1,198 fps (Cowboy Tutt probably has more accurate info .... I'm remembering back about 35 years ago.)

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:46 pm

Frank, Kirk is correct. The 11mm is commonly refered to also as the 43 Mauser. The bullets are actually .446 in diameter. Original loads actually were at 1400-1425 fps using the 385 grain bullet that Kirk mentioned out of a 31 1/2' barrel. These were BP loads using paper patched bullets. I actually have a box:

What I think is so neat is the original cartridges were stamped with the month and year of manufacture. This was reportedly common practice for BP military loads as the shelf life was reletively short.

Anyhow, Kirk has a whole new world to explore here. He can get into BP and paper patched bullets, or go the smokeless route, or both. Different bullet weights and designs are available for the venerable 45-70. This will keep you busy for a long time, Buddy!

-Tutt

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:52 pm

That sir, is a fine lookin piece. It's not shootin high, you're just standin waaaaay to close

As mentioned before I encourage a try with hollow base bullets and H4198.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:55 pm

Kirk, yes as it has been stated, be very careful, the wood is tight around the lock and trigger guard plate. I loosen the screws about one turn and tap the heads with a plastic hammer lightly until the lock starts to move. Here is an exploded view of a Trapdoor. Since yours is a 1888 model your nose cap and bayonette are differnent, but the rest is the same. When you get the lock off, check the tumbler screws, if they are too tight they create quite a bit of tension on the sears.

Kirk, you also have a Buffington sight in rear and with it laying flat in point blank/battle configuration it is generally set for 250 yards! Flipping it up and you will get about 150 yards out of the lowest peep.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:04 pm

It's not shootin high, you're just standin waaaaay to close

Ha! What he said!

Also, remember that these old military rifles were probably designed for "minute of chest" or "minute of pork" and not "minute of angle".

-Tutt

Ram Hammer · Post by **Ram Hammer** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:08 pm

Great post and really nice rifle. I have had one for about 15 years or so and really like making smoke with it. I discovered that they shoot high when the front sight from an earlier model is mixed with a later model Buffington rear sight (which you have). There are a few places on the web where you might order a new front sight to get it to shoot to point of aim.

On another note if you slug the barrel you are going to have a challenge measuring the bullet. These rifles have three groove rifling. I managed to measure mine after making a jig out of a machinist v-block and applying some geometry. I still have a headache from that exercise

Finally, I read a while back where someone took the predecessor to this rifle and modified the trigger to remove some of the creep and reduce the pull. It amounted to placing a shim between the sear and sear engagement on the hammer. It was epoxied or attached with a variety of lock tight. The modification is not permanent. It took my rifle from 8 pounds with a lot of creep to a crisp 5 pounds. I cant find the website that posted that info right now but will look around.

Good luck and please keep posting range reports.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:16 pm

While we're sharing..1884 mfg 1887 ..1863 Peabody 43 Span cal mfg about 1877

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:19 pm

Tutt, are those old kraut cartridges still any good? Or are they too valuable to shoot?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:28 pm

Ben, very fine old rifles you got there.

Ram Hammer, I didn't realize it had three-groove rifling. That will be a pain to measure, alright.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:31 pm

Ben, you forced me to have to get out my "drool bucket". This thread is getting so good! Again, Kudo's to Kirk for such a fine purchase and another fine post. So much interesting information being shared.

Frank, too valuable to shoot I am told. I doubt they would shoot well, but they might actually go bang. I will never know....

P.S. Frank, you can call me Andy if you like, or Tutt. Tutt is my Dad's nickname that I took on a long while after his passing. I'm partial to it, but you can call me either. You've been around a while, and you live in one of my favorite places in N.A. While we may not always agree, your all right in my book.

P.S.S. Same to you, Kirk!

-Tutt

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:34 pm

Ram Hammer, interesting info about the 3 groove rifling. I had to look at my slug again, and it appears the 71/84 Mauser's used a 4 groove design. Fascinating.

-Tutt

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:38 pm

Ben, should have been a drool warning on that Pearson. Nice piece.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:05 pm

Thanks guys..I felt real lucky to get aT D with the pistol grip accesory.. also has the front sight cover(not pictured)..The rat sling I have on it came from DGW years ago for $15.00..Ones like it now days go for a Hunnert or more.. The Peabody has 3 groove rifling too.. The trick to measure 3 groove rifling after you've made a slug or chamber casting.. Wrap shim stock around the slug.. hold the shim firmly with pliers..& measure with your Mikes..The shim stock has to be fairly stiff because it will go flat where it crosses over the low spots if the shim is too thin..as always YMMV..

It does have a lever..Well sort of..

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:21 pm

congrats on a beautiful purchase. I wish you much luck and success with wringing it out. Another one of those rifles I have always loved but never owned.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:12 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:Frank, too valuable to shoot I am told. I doubt they would shoot well, but they might actually go bang. I will never know....

P.S. Frank, you can call me Andy if you like, or Tutt. Tutt is my Dad's nickname that I took on a long while after his passing. I'm partial to it, but you can call me either. You've been around a while, and you live in one of my favorite places in N.A. While we may not always agree, your all right in my book.

Tutt suits me if it suits you

, and most people aren't sure what to do with a Libertarian, especially when they've already assumed I'm a Republican. Hell, took me some getting used to when I figured it out.

Kirk, have you verified that 3 groove thing yet? I'm quite curious about that.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:09 am

Tutt suits me if it suits you , and most people aren't sure what to do with a Libertarian, especially when they've already assumed I'm a Republican. Hell, took me some getting used to when I figured it out.

Frank, I didn't know that and it explains a lot about you and helps me to understand you better. All good. I'm the lifelong "middle of the road" Democrat who no longer has a party to adhere to. I "wrote in" Lieberman for President during the Democratic party primary last election if that helps to understand me better. I don't expect you to agree, just looking to develope some understanding. I recently changed to Republican to vote for Thompson, but he didn't survive long enough to vote for. I'm not quite to the Libertarian viewpoint, but I respect it none-the-less.

Thanks for the kind words. What are you doing in CO on July 26th? I may have to change the proposed date for an event in CO. Do you have any rifles in 45-70? Even Leverguns? I would love to meet you in Hotchkiss, CO at the Billy Dixon Range if your not doing anything.

-Tutt aka Andy

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Wed May 14, 2008 1:41 am

Kirk, Congratulations, that looks like one fine old Trapdoor.
A fellow at the range gave me a few shots with his at 200m, I was very impressed. I do not remember what load he was using but it felt and shot great!

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed May 14, 2008 7:34 am

Kirk -

Another wonderful range report and great (as always) photos. These always pick up my day! Thank you for the report and congratulations!!!

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Wed May 14, 2008 11:57 am

Thats a bueat Kirk, I think you should send it to me cos our rabbits and fox's are getting tough. Any time over summer don't rush

Nath.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:51 pm

CowboyTutt wrote: What are you doing in CO on July 26th?

Unfortunately I have a booked summer between mil training, vacation to MT, and building a house. My mom lives in Delta and would love to see me.