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I always thought of a 'carbine' as a shorter, handier, version of a shoulder-fired firearm, which in full-size format would be a 'rifle'.
So, to me a 24" barreled levergun would typically be one I'd call a 'rifle', and a 16" one would be a 'carbine'.....regardless of the type of barrel-band(s) it had.
Is the real definition of 'carbine' more along the lines of 'a short rifle' or does it depend on the barrel bands...?
If the latter, then are all the leverguns using the same convention/build for their short versus long guns...?
And if it is based on the 'band', what about 'carbines' that are bolt-action or semi-auto...???
I'm [often ] confused...........
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
AJMD429 wrote:I always thought of a 'carbine' as a shorter, handier, version of a shoulder-fired firearm, which in full-size format would be a 'rifle'.
So, to me a 24" barreled levergun would typically be one I'd call a 'rifle', and a 16" one would be a 'carbine'.....regardless of the type of barrel-band(s) it had.
Is the real definition of 'carbine' more along the lines of 'a short rifle' or does it depend on the barrel bands...?
If the latter, then are all the leverguns using the same convention/build for their short versus long guns...?
And if it is based on the 'band', what about 'carbines' that are bolt-action or semi-auto...???
I'm [often ] confused...........
I'm blissfully ignorant. They are "all" rifles to me and some are just shorter, and lighter.....
I'm pretty sure no one sez, Just a second, Paw, let me get my carbine before we head out.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First
Proud Life Member Of:
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Howdy Doc,
I guess I'd call the shorter ones "carbines" lever, bolt, whatever...
I , in most cases, prefer carbines to longer stuff because of maneuverability...
YMMV,
Paul
"Pain plants the flag of reality in the
fortress of a rebel soul"
I'll go with whatever the manufacturer calls them. For instance Marlin calls the short barreled 1895 a Guide Gun. So although iris generally classed as a carbine to me it's a Guide Gun.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
Old Savage wrote:Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV
but... but... my 20" AR is called a rifle, and my 16" AR is called a carbine... it seems... there are NO hard and fast rules. Hmmm... wonder what I should call my 24" AR? Besides "Accurate"?
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Griff, these things were decided by Winchester ... ARs do not count. Now you know that. And this is Leverguns.com. not EBR.com Now just go look at those 30 some 94s and fresh yourself as to the source of truth. Maybe you better say some Hail Marys and Our Fathers while you are st it.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...
So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO!
We've argued (gentlemanly discussed for the fairer sex), the difference. But no one's got it right. Doc, the difference lies in use. And it is military in source, as all weapons were originally developed for military use... civilian use was a fall back when the military failed to pick up the latest and greatest development.
Rifles are used by the infantry. Carbines by mounted. Same weapon, just different lengths. Generally speaking, the shorter length are developed for use in specialized (cavalry being among the first of these), units.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.
But Winchester marketed my 20" '66 Centennial" mdl 94 as a "carbine"... even tho' it has their traditional "rifle" furniture on it. And to make matters worse, they marketed the 7-30 Waters mdl 94 with it's 24" barrel and traditional "carbine" furniture as a "rifle"...
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.
Yep, the rifle vs carbine designations run like Old Savage's post;
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO
And both of Griff's guns have barrels over 20" so, yep they be rifles...
P.S.; A lot of thing's names were determined many, many years ago, but in today's world tradition and history does not matter, it's what something is called today...
Mike
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit...
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
mikld wrote:Yep, the rifle vs carbine designations run like Old Savage's post;
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO
And both of Griff's guns have barrels over 20" so, yep they be rifles...
P.S.; A lot of thing's names were determined many, many years ago, but in today's world tradition and history does not matter, it's what something is called today...
And while that may be true for "MOST" of Winchester's guns, it is not universal... for my Jager is a "carabiner", or carbine.
ri·fle1
/ˈrīfəl/
noun: rifle; plural noun: rifles
1. a gun, especially one fired from shoulder level, having a long spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.
car·bine
/ˈkärˌbīn,-ˌbēn/
noun: carbine; plural noun: carbines
a light automatic rifle.
•historical
a short rifle or musket used by cavalry.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.
This is the best answer and how the term "carbine" originated. You need two versions of the same gun and the carbine version (shorter of the two) differentiates the difference.
The ATF calls any long gun with a rifled barrel longer the 16" and an overall length of (I can't remember) a rifle long gun. The word "carbine" is not discussed.
All of the other BS made by manufacturers and what they call their guns is just marketing.------6
Old Savage wrote:Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV
but... but... my 20" AR is called a rifle, and my 16" AR is called a carbine... it seems... there are NO hard and fast rules. Hmmm... wonder what I should call my 24" AR? Besides "Accurate"?
Long rifle?
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.
This is the best answer and how the term "carbine" originated. You need two versions of the same gun and the carbine version (shorter of the two) differentiates the difference.
The ATF calls any long gun with a rifled barrel longer the 16" and an overall length of (I can't remember) a rifle long gun. The word "carbine" is not discussed.
All of the other BS made by manufacturers and what they call their guns is just marketing.------6
I agree. There is no hard and fast rule. The only across the board definition of a carbine is a shorter version of a rifle. Every other interpretation is just that.
Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.
That's what I go by, rather than type of sight or barrel band or whatever (though I realize that differs from Official Winchester jargon). So pretty much any gun I have that is longer than my Marlin 1894, I consider a 'rifle' and the rest 'carbines'.
Old Savage wrote:... ARs do not count. Now you know that. And this is Leverguns.com. not EBR.com Now just go look at those 30 some 94s and fresh yourself as to the source of truth. Maybe you better say some Hail Marys and Our Fathers while you are st it.
THAT however is my favorite 'answer'....
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Lever actions changed the playing field and created a new firearms culture. For for one thing, for the first time civilians had more fire power than the military. The light portability of repeating power created a new era. One cowboy for instace could stand against a group of Indians. The revolver created a similar change enhanced by cartridges.
The M16 I used in the early 70s was a carbine in handling characteristics. What they have now in some formats qualifify as Trappers or almost subtrappers.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...
There are all sorts of exceptions, or later marketing ploys done by manufacturers. So it might be prudent to look at the era of a gun, and how that maker played with the categories then. There are also cases like the Savage 99 that even in early years are tough to tell a carbine from a short rifle, unless you know them well enough to note the barrel weight, sights, and era.
Go back far enough and everything rifled is a rifle. I am using terms as they applied to leverguns as developed early on. Seems clearest at this point.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...
rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
rodeo kid,
Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Old Savage wrote:Go back far enough and everything rifled is a rifle. I am using terms as they applied to leverguns as developed early on. Seems clearest at this point.
Yep, back to before there were carbines... you're right. But, for purposes of Leverguns, I use the furniture as the determination... AFTER barrel length. Ergo, my 20" '66 Centennial Commemorative is a "short rifle", and the 24" 7-30 Waters is a "rifle"...
and it's 20" carbine version:
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
rodeo kid,
Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day
Joe
No "stamped" aluminum in the AR-15 or M-16. It is forged aluminum... unlike the post '64 Winchester 94s! Or the stamped tin of the AK or it's derivatives. We didn't say it was a Mattel "toy"... we called it the gun made by Mattel.
And Kid, back then it was far from the "...most popular rifle in the country"... That didn't happen until more than 20 years after it's introduction. And happened only with the generation that grew up with it...
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
rodeo kid,
Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day
Joe
No "stamped" aluminum in the AR-15 or M-16. It is forged aluminum... unlike the post '64 Winchester 94s! Or the stamped tin of the AK or it's derivatives. We didn't say it was a Mattel "toy"... we called it the gun made by Mattel.
And Kid, back then it was far from the "...most popular rifle in the country"... That didn't happen until more than 20 years after it's introduction. And happened only with the generation that grew up with it...
and they've even got that all messed up with all those weird acronyms like RECCE, SBR, SPR, M4 SOPMOD, MK12, etc. My head hurts. Can't we just call them bang sticks?
I know a whole lot about very little and nothing about a whole lot.
marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.
That's what the Brazillions call their 20" 1892s...
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
So... There are rifles and short rifles, and some short rifles are/were used by Trappers.
I don't think anyone knows the etymology of the term "Trapper" as coined by Winchester in choosing that term over some other word.
Old Ironsights wrote:
marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.
That's what the Brazillions call their 20" 1892s...
Really, read the description:
The Rossi R92 Round Barrel delivers shorter, lighter versions of their big brothers with 16 or 20 carbine models. Available in .38/.357, .44 Mag., .45 Colt, .44-40 Win and .454 Casull. The R92 Round Barrel comes in two finish options - Blue and Stainless. All R92 Round Barrel models feature crescent buttplates and an extended front sight. For brush hunting and wilderness packing, Rossi R92 carbine .454 Casull features optional magazine-tube loading and recoil absorbing butt pad.
(emphasis added)
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"? ----6
Sixgun wrote:Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"? ----6
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Sixgun wrote:Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"? ----6
That map ain't no good for me. Since I retired I took the insurance off of my 89 Jeep and the Rubicon Jeep stays in the garage with the cover on it. My wife takes care of all of my needs.
I need a map with a foot print trail with weeds, trees, small stones, etc.----6
The term carbine has been around for centuries, since wheellocks were in use.
The Musketeers of fame and legend and many many Disney movies, before they carried muskets as the Mousquetiers du Roi (Royal Musketeers) were the "Carabiniers du Roi", carrying wheellocks, not flintlocks.
The Italian Carabinieri (military police among other things) get their name from carrying carbines as opposed to rifles, similar to many of the other federal police in Europe, most of whom now carry submachine guns.