Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
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- AJMD429
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Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
I always thought of a 'carbine' as a shorter, handier, version of a shoulder-fired firearm, which in full-size format would be a 'rifle'.
So, to me a 24" barreled levergun would typically be one I'd call a 'rifle', and a 16" one would be a 'carbine'.....regardless of the type of barrel-band(s) it had.
Is the real definition of 'carbine' more along the lines of 'a short rifle' or does it depend on the barrel bands...?
If the latter, then are all the leverguns using the same convention/build for their short versus long guns...?
And if it is based on the 'band', what about 'carbines' that are bolt-action or semi-auto...???
I'm [often ] confused...........
So, to me a 24" barreled levergun would typically be one I'd call a 'rifle', and a 16" one would be a 'carbine'.....regardless of the type of barrel-band(s) it had.
Is the real definition of 'carbine' more along the lines of 'a short rifle' or does it depend on the barrel bands...?
If the latter, then are all the leverguns using the same convention/build for their short versus long guns...?
And if it is based on the 'band', what about 'carbines' that are bolt-action or semi-auto...???
I'm [often ] confused...........
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
I'm blissfully ignorant. They are "all" rifles to me and some are just shorter, and lighter.....AJMD429 wrote:I always thought of a 'carbine' as a shorter, handier, version of a shoulder-fired firearm, which in full-size format would be a 'rifle'.
So, to me a 24" barreled levergun would typically be one I'd call a 'rifle', and a 16" one would be a 'carbine'.....regardless of the type of barrel-band(s) it had.
Is the real definition of 'carbine' more along the lines of 'a short rifle' or does it depend on the barrel bands...?
If the latter, then are all the leverguns using the same convention/build for their short versus long guns...?
And if it is based on the 'band', what about 'carbines' that are bolt-action or semi-auto...???
I'm [often ] confused...........
I'm pretty sure no one sez, Just a second, Paw, let me get my carbine before we head out.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Howdy Doc,
I guess I'd call the shorter ones "carbines" lever, bolt, whatever...
I , in most cases, prefer carbines to longer stuff because of maneuverability...
YMMV,
Paul
I guess I'd call the shorter ones "carbines" lever, bolt, whatever...
I , in most cases, prefer carbines to longer stuff because of maneuverability...
YMMV,
Paul
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Silly question Doc, they're called GUNS!!
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
I'll go with whatever the manufacturer calls them. For instance Marlin calls the short barreled 1895 a Guide Gun. So although iris generally classed as a carbine to me it's a Guide Gun.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Griff wrote:Silly question Doc, they're called GUNS!!
This is my rifle, this is my gun!
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Doc,
Even before I read the other responses, I knew my head was gonna hurt on this one. Please, go to bed. ----6
Even before I read the other responses, I knew my head was gonna hurt on this one. Please, go to bed. ----6
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
but... but... my 20" AR is called a rifle, and my 16" AR is called a carbine... it seems... there are NO hard and fast rules. Hmmm... wonder what I should call my 24" AR? Besides "Accurate"?Old Savage wrote:Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
I guess that makes my 16" riFAL a carbine?
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Well, this is what I was taught:
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
This was basically the same for lever and other types of civilian shoulder fired weapons.
The military screwed it all up when they brought out the Mattel toy. The rifle is really a carbine and the carbine could be used as a hand gun
Joe
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
This was basically the same for lever and other types of civilian shoulder fired weapons.
The military screwed it all up when they brought out the Mattel toy. The rifle is really a carbine and the carbine could be used as a hand gun
Joe
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Griff, these things were decided by Winchester ... ARs do not count. Now you know that. And this is Leverguns.com. not EBR.com Now just go look at those 30 some 94s and fresh yourself as to the source of truth. Maybe you better say some Hail Marys and Our Fathers while you are st it.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO!
We've argued (gentlemanly discussed for the fairer sex), the difference. But no one's got it right. Doc, the difference lies in use. And it is military in source, as all weapons were originally developed for military use... civilian use was a fall back when the military failed to pick up the latest and greatest development.
Rifles are used by the infantry. Carbines by mounted. Same weapon, just different lengths. Generally speaking, the shorter length are developed for use in specialized (cavalry being among the first of these), units.
We've argued (gentlemanly discussed for the fairer sex), the difference. But no one's got it right. Doc, the difference lies in use. And it is military in source, as all weapons were originally developed for military use... civilian use was a fall back when the military failed to pick up the latest and greatest development.
Rifles are used by the infantry. Carbines by mounted. Same weapon, just different lengths. Generally speaking, the shorter length are developed for use in specialized (cavalry being among the first of these), units.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
But Winchester marketed my 20" '66 Centennial" mdl 94 as a "carbine"... even tho' it has their traditional "rifle" furniture on it. And to make matters worse, they marketed the 7-30 Waters mdl 94 with it's 24" barrel and traditional "carbine" furniture as a "rifle"...marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.
Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Yep, the rifle vs carbine designations run like Old Savage's post;
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
P.S.; A lot of thing's names were determined many, many years ago, but in today's world tradition and history does not matter, it's what something is called today...
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
And both of Griff's guns have barrels over 20" so, yep they be rifles...So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO
P.S.; A lot of thing's names were determined many, many years ago, but in today's world tradition and history does not matter, it's what something is called today...
Mike
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
And while that may be true for "MOST" of Winchester's guns, it is not universal... for my Jager is a "carabiner", or carbine.mikld wrote:Yep, the rifle vs carbine designations run like Old Savage's post;
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and lessAnd both of Griff's guns have barrels over 20" so, yep they be rifles...So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO
P.S.; A lot of thing's names were determined many, many years ago, but in today's world tradition and history does not matter, it's what something is called today...
ri·fle1
/ˈrīfəl/
noun: rifle; plural noun: rifles
1. a gun, especially one fired from shoulder level, having a long spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.
car·bine
/ˈkärˌbīn,-ˌbēn/
noun: carbine; plural noun: carbines
a light automatic rifle.
•historical
a short rifle or musket used by cavalry.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.
This is the best answer and how the term "carbine" originated. You need two versions of the same gun and the carbine version (shorter of the two) differentiates the difference.
The ATF calls any long gun with a rifled barrel longer the 16" and an overall length of (I can't remember) a rifle long gun. The word "carbine" is not discussed.
All of the other BS made by manufacturers and what they call their guns is just marketing.------6
Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
J Miller wrote:Well, this is what I was taught:
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
This was basically the same for lever and other types of civilian shoulder fired weapons.
The military screwed it all up when they brought out the Mattel toy. The rifle is really a carbine and the carbine could be used as a hand gun
Joe
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Long rifle?Griff wrote:but... but... my 20" AR is called a rifle, and my 16" AR is called a carbine... it seems... there are NO hard and fast rules. Hmmm... wonder what I should call my 24" AR? Besides "Accurate"?Old Savage wrote:Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
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"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
I agree. There is no hard and fast rule. The only across the board definition of a carbine is a shorter version of a rifle. Every other interpretation is just that.Sixgun wrote:Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.
This is the best answer and how the term "carbine" originated. You need two versions of the same gun and the carbine version (shorter of the two) differentiates the difference.
The ATF calls any long gun with a rifled barrel longer the 16" and an overall length of (I can't remember) a rifle long gun. The word "carbine" is not discussed.
All of the other BS made by manufacturers and what they call their guns is just marketing.------6
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
That's what I go by, rather than type of sight or barrel band or whatever (though I realize that differs from Official Winchester jargon). So pretty much any gun I have that is longer than my Marlin 1894, I consider a 'rifle' and the rest 'carbines'.Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.
THAT however is my favorite 'answer'....Old Savage wrote:... ARs do not count. Now you know that. And this is Leverguns.com. not EBR.com Now just go look at those 30 some 94s and fresh yourself as to the source of truth. Maybe you better say some Hail Marys and Our Fathers while you are st it.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
However I also like this answer. Even with "EBR's" just substitute SBR for Trapper and it is still useful with today's weapons.J Miller wrote:Well, this is what I was taught:
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
This was basically the same for lever and other types of civilian shoulder fired weapons.
The military screwed it all up when they brought out the Mattel toy. The rifle is really a carbine and the carbine could be used as a hand gun
Joe
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Now Griff, did carbines precede automatic rifles?
Lever actions changed the playing field and created a new firearms culture. For for one thing, for the first time civilians had more fire power than the military. The light portability of repeating power created a new era. One cowboy for instace could stand against a group of Indians. The revolver created a similar change enhanced by cartridges.
The M16 I used in the early 70s was a carbine in handling characteristics. What they have now in some formats qualifify as Trappers or almost subtrappers.
Lever actions changed the playing field and created a new firearms culture. For for one thing, for the first time civilians had more fire power than the military. The light portability of repeating power created a new era. One cowboy for instace could stand against a group of Indians. The revolver created a similar change enhanced by cartridges.
The M16 I used in the early 70s was a carbine in handling characteristics. What they have now in some formats qualifify as Trappers or almost subtrappers.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
There are all sorts of exceptions, or later marketing ploys done by manufacturers. So it might be prudent to look at the era of a gun, and how that maker played with the categories then. There are also cases like the Savage 99 that even in early years are tough to tell a carbine from a short rifle, unless you know them well enough to note the barrel weight, sights, and era.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Go back far enough and everything rifled is a rifle. I am using terms as they applied to leverguns as developed early on. Seems clearest at this point.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
rodeo kid,rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day
Joe
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Yep, back to before there were carbines... you're right. But, for purposes of Leverguns, I use the furniture as the determination... AFTER barrel length. Ergo, my 20" '66 Centennial Commemorative is a "short rifle", and the 24" 7-30 Waters is a "rifle"...Old Savage wrote:Go back far enough and everything rifled is a rifle. I am using terms as they applied to leverguns as developed early on. Seems clearest at this point.
and it's 20" carbine version:
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
No "stamped" aluminum in the AR-15 or M-16. It is forged aluminum... unlike the post '64 Winchester 94s! Or the stamped tin of the AK or it's derivatives. We didn't say it was a Mattel "toy"... we called it the gun made by Mattel.J Miller wrote:rodeo kid,rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day
Joe
And Kid, back then it was far from the "...most popular rifle in the country"... That didn't happen until more than 20 years after it's introduction. And happened only with the generation that grew up with it...
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
and they've even got that all messed up with all those weird acronyms like RECCE, SBR, SPR, M4 SOPMOD, MK12, etc. My head hurts. Can't we just call them bang sticks?Griff wrote:No "stamped" aluminum in the AR-15 or M-16. It is forged aluminum... unlike the post '64 Winchester 94s! Or the stamped tin of the AK or it's derivatives. We didn't say it was a Mattel "toy"... we called it the gun made by Mattel.J Miller wrote:rodeo kid,rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day
Joe
And Kid, back then it was far from the "...most popular rifle in the country"... That didn't happen until more than 20 years after it's introduction. And happened only with the generation that grew up with it...
I know a whole lot about very little and nothing about a whole lot.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
That's what the Brazillions call their 20" 1892s...marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
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מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
The word "carbine" means rifle.
The word "Trapper" identifies an occupation.
So... There are rifles and short rifles, and some short rifles are/were used by Trappers.
The word "Trapper" identifies an occupation.
So... There are rifles and short rifles, and some short rifles are/were used by Trappers.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
I don't think anyone knows the etymology of the term "Trapper" as coined by Winchester in choosing that term over some other word.FWiedner wrote:The word "carbine" means rifle.
The word "Trapper" identifies an occupation.
So... There are rifles and short rifles, and some short rifles are/were used by Trappers.
Really, read the description:Old Ironsights wrote:That's what the Brazillions call their 20" 1892s...marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.
(emphasis added)
The Rossi R92 Round Barrel delivers shorter, lighter versions of their big brothers with 16 or 20 carbine models. Available in .38/.357, .44 Mag., .45 Colt, .44-40 Win and .454 Casull. The R92 Round Barrel comes in two finish options - Blue and Stainless. All R92 Round Barrel models feature crescent buttplates and an extended front sight.
For brush hunting and wilderness packing, Rossi R92 carbine .454 Casull features optional magazine-tube loading and recoil absorbing butt pad.
Griff,
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AND... I'm over it!!
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NRA Patron
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- Old Ironsights
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
When I bought mine it was called a "Short Rifle".
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Did it look like this:Old Ironsights wrote:When I bought mine it was called a "Short Rifle".
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- Old Savage
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Well Griff, here we have another classification - short rifle - hadn't heard that one. I see that is one of Winchester's terms?
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
How about a "saddle ring carbine"??????
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JOSHUA 24:15
JOSHUA 24:15
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"? ----6
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Sixgun wrote:Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"? ----6
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- Sixgun
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Griff wrote:Sixgun wrote:Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"? ----6
That map ain't no good for me. Since I retired I took the insurance off of my 89 Jeep and the Rubicon Jeep stays in the garage with the cover on it. My wife takes care of all of my needs.
I need a map with a foot print trail with weeds, trees, small stones, etc.----6
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Snub nose, let me think.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Lol... I'm on my second bag of popcorn
My first child - '94 30-30
Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
The term carbine has been around for centuries, since wheellocks were in use.
The Musketeers of fame and legend and many many Disney movies, before they carried muskets as the Mousquetiers du Roi (Royal Musketeers) were the "Carabiniers du Roi", carrying wheellocks, not flintlocks.
The Italian Carabinieri (military police among other things) get their name from carrying carbines as opposed to rifles, similar to many of the other federal police in Europe, most of whom now carry submachine guns.
It generally just means a shorter rifle.
The Musketeers of fame and legend and many many Disney movies, before they carried muskets as the Mousquetiers du Roi (Royal Musketeers) were the "Carabiniers du Roi", carrying wheellocks, not flintlocks.
The Italian Carabinieri (military police among other things) get their name from carrying carbines as opposed to rifles, similar to many of the other federal police in Europe, most of whom now carry submachine guns.
It generally just means a shorter rifle.
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Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Well, here's a 'modern' (really just a slightly shortened 1886 done up in modern steel) levergun company's use of the terms:
Model 89 "Rifle"
Model 90 "Rifle"
Model 89 "Carbine"
Model 90 "Carbine"
Model 89 "Rifle"
Model 90 "Rifle"
Model 89 "Carbine"
Model 90 "Carbine"
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"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
As far as I'm concerned, any shoulder fired firearm with a rifled barrel is a rifle. All the other terminology is for books. And marketing.
Have you hugged your rifle today?
Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
Then what do you call a shotgun with a rifled barrel?
Re: Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"
The Winner!Old Savage wrote:Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV