more on "A Clean Bore and First-Shot Accuracy For Hunti

[new pig hunter]

I posted earlier this month about "Rifle Cleanliness vs. Accuracy of that first shot when you're hunting."
viewtopic.php?t=4577
The general consensus was that the first shot, and maybe #2 and #3, would not be accurate.

Well, I was at the range yesterday with my Winchester Trapper. Same scenario: well-scrubbed bore, shiny clean, etc etc.
1st shot: 6" high.
2nd shot: 4" high.
3rd shot: 2" high.
4th shot & subsequent: on-target.

So, another data point for the "dirty rifle hunting club."

Cheers,

Carl

[ScottT]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with this.

I often wonder when people mention this about what is really going on with their rifle. I know it happens because too many people report exactly the same thing.

I shoot my rifle groups from a clean bore for the first shot. Even my black powder loads. They all go into the same group, even my black powder loads. The same is true with my two Remington .308s as my Marlin and my Shiloh in .45-70.

I must be doing something different, but I don't know why my experience is different from anybody elses.

[Nath]

My trapper is slightly off for the first shot but not enough to worry me. I do keep it coppered if the weather is dry.
Nath.

[Bob A]

I have seen the same kind of results one of my rifles ( not to the same degree as New Pig Hunter) but haven't decided if I am seeing a clean bore issue or a cold bore issue. One of these weekends I need to take a clean, cold bore out on Sat. Then take the dirty cold bore out on Sunday and see what I get.

Bob A

[El Chivo]

with me it's been only the first shot, the rest are right on target.

I think it's a matter of clean, not cold. I shot groups with various wait periods and they seem to be on target regardless.

[ScottT]

I don't have a lot of choice in the matter.

Of course I shoot black powder in my main hunting rifle and I keep that clean, but I do leave a coat of mineral oil in the bore after I clean.

Funny thing though, when I clean on the range, I shoot from a clean dry barrel for the beginning of every string. The group does not wander.

With the Remingtons, it is a little different. My sniper gun gets shot pretty regularly and the shot that really counts is the first shot from the cold clean bore. But the first shot will go in the same group as the next 20.

My 788 may get shot once a year, but it is absolutely consistant.

I don't know, but it is a very interesting issue to me.

[Old Savage]

I have some rifles that act one way and others that behave the other. I think you have to do whatever works best for each rifle. I just hunt with them fouled a few shots.

[Nath]

It may have something to do with how an individual barrel is made or finished. My barrel just leaves jacket material on the lands. My 1958 BSA hornet never gets any jacket fouling. My other 94 I had years ago use to get coated in the grooves as well. A stainles Rem I had had a real rough bore but it shot ok and little fouling etc.
A law unto themselves. Kate is a high class lady and the bore finnish is probably where alot of dollars rest
Nath.

[jeepnik]

Learned about "fouling" shots as a youngster. As Dad explained it, unless you are using some type of corrosive component, pre-season,sight it in after fouled, leave it that way until the end of season (unless something untoward occurs) then clean it after the season. I haven't pitted a bore yet and I "know" my POI will be on.

[cnjarvis]

I've found that my 270 likes it dirty. and needs a couple of foulers. I don't clean between sight in and the end of deer season.

My Win. M94 in 45 Colt likes a little fouling as well. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that it shot low the first 2 shots before settling in.

[shawn45]

My rifles usually print the first shot at least and inch or two off for the first shot so I always hunt with a fouling shot fired. Don't see that with my pistols.

[95fan]

I always hut with a "fouled" barrel, My dad taught me to do this when I was young and since then I have learned the science behind it.

[Comal Forge]

My 45 muzzleloader will put the first one from a clean bbl about 3 inches low at 50 yds then all the rest will cluster in the 10 ring if I do my part - this with one patch wipe between shots.

I have a .270 that will throw the first shot from a clean bbl an inch to the left and high, then the rest on target. Has nothing to do with a hot barrel walking because a fresh shot from a cold fouled barrel hits where it's supposed to.

[Pisgah]

Some rifles will throw the first shot wide out of a clean bore. Some won't -- it's an individual thing. Just make sure you know which kind your rifle is.

[Charles]

Boys... Something is not right here. I have been shooting rifles for many, many years and it is true that some rifle will throw the first round or two out of the group with a clean barrel.

But this progressive vertical string from 6" to POA is way, way beyond anything I have experienced. One maybe two inches out of group for one or two rounds is about all I have ever seen. The fouling shots might go high, low, right or left.

Many leverguns are prone to verticle stringing due to the shifting of rounds in the magazine, barrel bands, heat etc. etc. etc. I strongly suspect there is more at work in this guys test, than bore condition.

[kimwcook]

My Remington PSS in 308 WCF doesn't wander from a cold bore first shot to it's umpteenth either. I really can't speak for my other rifles because I haven't stressed the ultimate accuracy from them. Shame on me. I'll try harder.

[new pig hunter]

What Charles is thinking (a post or two above) is what I myself am thinking: what else is at play here that would move a bullet around like that.

Obviously operator error, no doubt I have some of that. The first "test" a few weeks ago was at 100 yards, lots of room for operator error.
Yesterday's "test" with the Trapper was at 50 yards (the Trapper is .45LC so the closer the better to reduce my penchant for operator error).
Even so, I was paying very close attention to good shooting form for the first few shots, so I'm confident the first 4 were "good shots."
So I don't think it is all operator error on my part, especially when 2 of my other rifles did the same thing, and other fellows here have the same experience.

All part of the fun, I guess.

Cheers,

Carl

[sore shoulder]

I'm wondering if the reason some of those sniper rigs don't have the stringing is smotthness of bore? Aren't those fire lapped from the factory? This would theoretically mimic the additional lube a bullet from a cold clean bore having lubricant residue and the resulting velocity increase, and conversely a slight decrease once the bullet has wiped the bore and deposited friction causing residue. This could possibly be verified with a chronograph?

[preventec47]

[quote="sore shoulder"]I'm wondering if the reason some of those sniper rigs don't have the stringing is smotthness of bore? Aren't those fire lapped from the factory? This would theoretically mimic the additional lube a bullet from a cold clean bore having lubricant residue and the resulting velocity increase, and conversely a slight decrease once the bullet has wiped the bore and deposited friction causing residue. This could possibly be verified with a chronograph?[/quote]
---------
There is and argument for both increase and decrease of velocity from
lubricant film in a clean bore.
one argument is that the reduced friction would result in lower pressures
building behind the bullet. Much like shooting lighter bullets for any
given reload recipe. The other argument is of course because
of reduced friction the bullet can speed up faster in the barrel. But you
are right, a chrono will answer the question ONLY for that particular
load and gun.

[ScottT]

I'm not sure smoothness of the bore is the issue, but the weight of the barrel might be.

My dedicated precision rifle will shoot into 1/2 inch with Hornady commercial ammo. It will do better than an inch with some ball ammo, so when I take it to the range, I typically will set paper plates at 100, 200 and 300. Any stringing or out-of-group shot would really show at 300, so I think I am right in saying, I do not see it with this rifle. I never clean it at the range and I will generally fire around 20 rounds per session. When I get home it gets thoroughly cleaned with Sweets. Now, this is a heavy barreled gun in a fiberglas stock, but it is also dead nuts on all the time.

The reason I don't think smoothness of the bore is the issue is that this one fouls pretty easily and I do not think it has a particularly smooth bore, compared to other rifles I own.

[Charles]

New Pig Hunter .... Leverguns with the magazine attatched to the barrel and a two piece stock can give fits by stringing it's shots. I hesitate to go to far with this, because there are folks on this board who will swear what I am about to say is not so, that their levergun will outshoot in terms of pure accuracy a high quality bolt gun. Well, tis just BS and blow so here we go.

When testing a any rifle with a tubular magazine off a bench...

1) Load round one at a time into the chamber and don't use the magazine. When you load the magazine the POI can string as the rounds shift backward and change the tension of the magazine attatchement to the barrel.

2) Don't rest the barrel or forend on the bag. Hold the rifle firm against your shoulder, rest your off hand on the bag and hold the rifle forend with your hand.

3) Many levergun with tubular magazines will string their shots verticaly as the barrel heats up. So be careful not to heat up the barrel. Or... shoot three quick shots and then let the barrel cool.

Leverguns are fine, handy field rifles with plenty of accuracy for their intended purposes, but they have their quirks. Some folks go overboard on leverguns and almost become a cult, that claims their rifle will do things that are just beyond the mechanical ability of the rifle.

I have been absorbed with rifle accuracy for over 50 years and know what they will do and won't do. I get amused at some of the claims on levergun accuracy on various Internet Boards. To believe these claims one must suspend all knowledge and experience and go on fantasy.

Anyway... I can't tell you the problem you are having but I can tell you that the stringing you are experiencing is not due to a clean vs. fouled barrel.

[cecil]

Have no where near the experience of Charles, but am mostly convinced his observations are spot on, with one specific exception. The specific exception would be the heavy short (essentially bull barrels) barreled versions. It seems the 307, Marlin 444 outfitter and 45-70 guide gun owned, are largely immune from wandering zero (given reasonable number of shots taken in succession).

If i was getting that amount of vertical stringing at 50 yards, would be looking for causes and solutions.

If your first shot from a clean bore is substancially off from the following shots bothers ya, it may help to run a tight jag through the bore before going to the range. Am always using a fouled bore for hunting.

[Modoc ED]

New Pig Hunter .... Leverguns with the magazine attatched to the barrel and a two piece stock can give fits by stringing it's shots. I hesitate to go to far with this, because there are folks on this board who will swear what I am about to say is not so, that their levergun will outshoot in terms of pure accuracy a high quality bolt gun. Well, tis just BS and blow so here we go.

When testing a any rifle with a tubular magazine off a bench...

1) Load round one at a time into the chamber and don't use the magazine. When you load the magazine the POI can string as the rounds shift backward and change the tension of the magazine attatchement to the barrel. DOESN"T MATTER ONE BIT.

2) Don't rest the barrel or forend on the bag. Hold the rifle firm against your shoulder, rest your off hand on the bag and hold the rifle forend with your hand. I HEARTEDLY AGREE WITH THIS!!

Leverguns are fine, handy field rifles with plenty of accuracy for their intended purposes, but they have their quirks. Some folks go overboard on leverguns and almost become a cult, that claims their rifle will do things that are just beyond the mechanical ability of the rifle.

I have been absorbed with rifle accuracy for over 50 years and know what they will do and won't do. I get amused at some of the claims on levergun accuracy on various Internet Boards. To believe these claims one must suspend all knowledge and experience and go on fantasy

Charles, Charles, Charles,

Things just aren't written in stone as you have posted above.

I sight my lever actions in at 100 yards and use a 3" target dot to sight on. I use a six-o'clock hold and I DO rest the rifle forend in my off-hand. I adjust my sights so that the bullets strike well up in the target dot thus ensuring point of aim out to 150 yards with a tad of hold over at 200 yards.

Here is a target I shot some time ago. I saved it because I have a buddy who like you thinks a lever action rifle just can't shoot anywhere close to a bolt action rifle. He doesn't believe that anymore. With this Winchester 94, I can shoot groups like this all day long. This is no BS or blow.


Here is a target I shot with a Model 94AE with the terrible rebounding hammer, terrible trigger, and terrible tang safety. Again a 3" target dot with the rifle forend held in my off hand and a six-o'clock hold. This is no BS or blow either.


I mostly shoot my lever actions with three rounds in the rifle -- two in the magazine and one in the chamber. Doesn't affect the results one way or the other.

Both of these rifles will shoot better than quite a few bolt action rifles I have owned or seen others shoot.

I got my first lever action rifle (Winchester Model 94 .30-30) in 1956 for my 13th birthday and I have used it regularly since then along with many others along the way. There will always be nay-sayers about lever action rifles but if they were so lousy, they'd have faded long ago.

EDIT:

NOTE -- Those targets were shot with Factory ammo -- not custom handloaded ammo. Says a lot for Winchester factory ammo. At least their Super X .30-30 170gr PP ammo.

[scr83jp]

I use the same position on the bench with all of my rifles bag under the butt & forend resting on bag .XLR 45-70 with new base,rings & scope once I got it zeroed in it performed ok but I was single loading it just like I do with my Sakos .

[Old Time Hunter]

From my 44mag '94 Trapper, as always starting with a clean bore. First three pretty much close to POA, then two fliers...way the heck off center:



This was standing at a hundred yards, lean'n against the roof pole.