Please tell me if I'm wrong re. dealer

levers · Post by **levers** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:44 pm

The dealer was wrong. I can't believe you bought from his wholesaler. I have tried to buy from wholesalers before and, in my experience, they would not deal with a retail buyer. They required that I have an account to order from them. If this shop is buying from a wholesaler who sells to the public, that's their problem. If they don't want to be in the FFL receiving business, they should not do it. They told you they'd do it for $25 and they should have. If they didn't like it when the gun arrived, they should have told you that they wouldn't do it again. I consider their actions as both poor business and ethics. It cost you a little cash but you learned not to trust them again.

I live up I10 from you in Chandler. Please make sure you either post the name of the shop or PM it to me. I don't want to make the mistake of spending any money with them.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:47 pm

levers wrote: I live up I10 from you in Chandler. Please make sure you either post the name of the shop or PM it to me. I don't want to make the mistake of spending any money with them.

I will do that.

Thanks,
Oly

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:59 pm

All of this discussion of the dealer's plight is irrelevant. It may be factual, but it is simply irrelevent to this situation.

Why?

Because the dealer agreed to do the transfer for $25. Period.

Again, if he didn't want to do the transfer, then he should have refused at that point or been specific about what kind of transfer he would do.

Instead, he pulled a con job. He is a crook.

To use the above analogy to the electritian, it would be like the electritian agreeing to do the work with the customer supplying the materials and then after getting on site and completing the work, charging the customer extra for the materials. That electritian would be a crook.

This is cut and dry and no amount of obfuscation can change it.

It matters not that you feel for the dealer or whatever. There is no excuse for this theft.

And as to "supporting the local dealer", do you think the dealer only buys from a wholesaler? Or do they buy from the manufacture when they can and bypass the wholesaler? They buy as cheap as possilbe and sell for as much as they can and will and do take advantage of customer's lack of knowledge. This is fine as long as it is done according to the rules of commerce.

Gentlemen, this is called capitalism and it is an ever changing and fluid process. Markets and players adjust to conditions. The game changes. Consumers pay for more than just "a gun". They pay for help in picking it out, perhaps a quick lesson on cleaning, etc. and being able to hold it before buying. If you are an expert consumer and don't need any hand holding, and take the time to source out a firearm, then you have a right to find a dealer that will just do a transfer service for you. And there's nothing wrong with that.

You guys think that its "wrong" for people to sell firearms face to face completely by-passing dealers, wholesalers, etc.? Hmm?

Get real.

For some reason, FFL dealers think that the FFL gives them a magical curb on the market. An exclusive. Wrong! Only lawyers and unions get that, and they shouldn't.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:14 pm

OSOK, I don't in anyway agree with or condone what the dealer did. His "business" beef should of been with the wholesaler and that's where he should of taken it. His "personal" beef should of been with the OP and I wouldn't blame him a bit if he had expressed displeasure for being taken advantage of. That's what the OP did.

Overall, his future customers are gonna pay for it.

LK

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:18 pm

olyinaz wrote:The dealer here in Tucson was very upset that I'd ordered a rifle from a wholesaler using their FFL and I'd need to pay them $105 to take possession of the file - sales tax, dealer markup, and a shipping fee.

I think this sentence in your original post is the cause of some confusion. I think you have since clarified that you ordered it "retail" over the net but the dealer doing the transfer accused you of ordering it from his wholesaler. It sounds like the local dealer probably recognized that it was drop shipped from a wholesaler that he also uses and thus he could have also ordered the rifle for you.

Still, he should have fully understood the deal when he initially told you he do the transfer or at least when he talked to the online seller for the setup of shipping, etc.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:20 pm

Alright, I read all the other posts up to now and I would like to give my input.

There is a definite advantage to buying from an out of state party, especially with a good price. The already mentioned 'taxes' are the real killer of the sale IMO. If you are buying a gun with a value that puts the taxes above the shipping/FFL fee then it would be cheaper to do it that way. Some math.....

Gun = $1299
Tax = $90.93 @ 7%
Total = $1389.93

Gun = $1200
Shipping = $25
Transfer = $25
Total = $1250

Now, an option would be to ask the local guy for an Out the Door price of $1250 or even something that's comparable, if not that low, to save the trouble of getting it elsewhere and getting some money in his pockets as well. Maybe drop 13 C notes on his counter and ask for that as an Out the Door price. You pay an extra $50 to save the hassle and he gets to put $1214.95 in his cash register.

I have no experience buying a new gun or of transferring through a dealer that sells new guns but I suspect, with strong conviction, that a foul was committed against Oly and that he should probably write it off and find a new venue. Easier said then done, I know, but that is what I think.

And, just for everyone's information: CUSTOMERS DON'T NEED BUSINESSES. BUSINESSES NEED CUSTOMERS. That's how we operate and I will work nowhere that thinks any different for many reasons, such as what happened to Oly.

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:30 pm

And, just for everyone's information: CUSTOMERS DON'T NEED BUSINESSES. BUSINESSES NEED CUSTOMERS. That's how we operate and I will work nowhere that thinks any different for many reasons, such as what happened to Oly.

+1,000,000. This may sound rude, but I am not in the buisness of over paying for anything. My money is hard earned. If I can get it cheaper on the net, you better believe that is where I am going to purchase. If my dealer can get it cheaper, then I will go with him. Simple economics. I went out of town to buy my 2009 Chevy truck. I paid $7k less than what my local dealer wanted. It's a no brainer. Someone else wanted my buisness.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:47 pm

Mich hunter wrote:
And, just for everyone's information: CUSTOMERS DON'T NEED BUSINESSES. BUSINESSES NEED CUSTOMERS. That's how we operate and I will work nowhere that thinks any different for many reasons, such as what happened to Oly.
+1,000,000. This may sound rude, but I am not in the buisness of over paying for anything. My money is hard earned. If I can get it cheaper on the net, you better believe that is where I am going to purchase. If my dealer can get it cheaper, then I will go with him. Simple economics. I went out of town to buy my 2009 Chevy truck. I paid $7k less than what my local dealer wanted. It's a no brainer. Someone else wanted my buisness.

True, but in the case of a new gun you must have an FFL in your state willing to transfer it to you. And though there are still plenty around to handle such transfers, there aren't as many as there used to be since Janet Reno put the squeeze on back in the Clinton years. They eliminated a lot of FFL holders that didn't have storefronts or were casually dealing. We have the C&R FFL now but that doesn't help the new gun buyer.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:25 am

IMO, you screwed up by having the wholesaleer use their one file FFL rather than getting a signed copy from the shop. That would either have pulled the rug out from under them on their shaft job, or they could have told you how bad they planned to screw you on the deal.

As for the dealer, he owes you a great big juicy kiss. It is only good manners to give someone a kiss when you screw them.

Let gun cranks in your area know who those folks are and the sleazy lowdown way they do business.

BTW, want to bet that the "sales tax" they collect from you never makes it to the city or state coffers?

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:57 am

For whats its worth, the dealer was wrong and should have honored his $25 dollar x-fer fee. However, you probably should have first inquired if the dealer could acquire the firearm in question for you and at what price.
BUT, I really believe he was wrong to hose you like that, and would look elsewhere to do business.

UncleBuck

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:55 am

As far as I am concerned, the dealer did you wrong. He should have done the transfer for $25, but explained the situation that you should have let him try to get the gun for you, maybe at a cheaper price to him, so he might have made some money, but your final cost would be the same.

You should have explained to him what the situation was, and then asked him about the transfer fee. In that respect, you bear a little bit of the error on your shoulders, but once he said $25, then he should have honored that price.

I got held up on the same thing, guy raised the fee once the gun came in. Knew he had me over a barrel also. I was NOT happy, and never went back, and never will.

Kind of like one of the popular gun magazines. You would make a purchase and get two issues free, to see if you like the magazine. Got a letter threatening me with a collection agency for non-payment of my subscription, even before I received the first of the two "free" magazines. Told them where they could put their magazine (had been a subscriber for 30 years)and have never picked up a copy of their magazine again, even if offered to me for free, nor read an article by them, on the web.

Find another dealer.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:22 am

In this day and age, if a retailer is not on the Net, he's losing business big time........

oic0 · Post by **oic0** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:34 am

It seems the dealers big issue is to him your retailer is one of his wholesalers. He needs to realize that they have a retail operation too! Maybe he needs to stop considering them a wholesaler if they have an online storefront and deal directly with customers.

Anyhow, its not your job to question him on the details. When I get a haircut I ask how much for a haircut. I don't ask "will it be extra if sneeze during". If they want to add restraints to the business deal, it is their job to do it up front! I'm not supposed to play the guessing game and try to figure out what they might possibly charge extra for.

$25 dollars for 15 minutes of your time and having a box in your back room for a day or so sounds like great profit margins to me. Apparently it does to many others too seeing as how gunbroker lists about 30 FFL transfer dealers within 20 miles of me. Many in the $10 range. I wouldn't mind having one myself. Couple hundred extra dollars every week to fill out some paperwork and make a couple phone calls sounds fine by me.

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:00 am

As one who runs a Pharmacy for Wal Mart, I understand that we must make a profit to survive. On the other hand, I have to be able to show the customers why they were charged the price they pay. I have willingly taken a loss of a few dollars several times in order to keep the customer for the long term. I get more business that way as the customers come back and bring their friends and family. I cannot always be upfront about prices due to the insurance companies having the authority to charge what they want and pay me what they want without any input from me and regardless of the cost to me of the medicine. I am always upfront about the cash price of a medicine. It is about the long term survival of a business by keeping customers and having them bring their family or friends on the next visit. I may lose $20 today, but I will gain $50,000 over your lifetime.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:26 am

If your story is correct in all aspects, then the dealer took advantage of the situation. He did not order the gun, you did. It merely passed through his shop and he was only acting as a middleman in your deal. The gun cost him nothing, so the only charge he should demanded from you is the $25 originally quoted. The fact that the gun was new is moot, it means nothing. The "dealer" is a crook! End of story.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:27 am

Lets take the gun biz riht out of this. Potential customer says "do you do XX? How much?"

Businessman replies "Yes I do, $25."

That is a contract. You can't change the rules after one party does his part and you got him by the shorties. You can''t add conditions not applied at the outset, etc. NO court would uphold that.

SFRanger7GP · Post by **SFRanger7GP** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:46 pm

Sir:

Dealer, wholesaler, big business, local business, etc. has nothing to do with the situatiion here. It appears as if you made the same mistake I have often made. You are a man of your word and expect everyone else to be the same. He gave his word and broke it. I have worked at a nice gun shop, had my own FFL and even did gunsmithing. More than once things didn't turn out like I planned and I lost time and money. But I never lost a customer for breaking my word and bond. Find you an honest dealer; there are a few still out there and people on this forum can link you up with one.

Wishes to all for a Safe, Happy and Prosperous New Year.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:02 pm

After rfeading your 1st post I remembered something about Centerfire Systems. I deal with these folks too. If you call them and don't identify yourself as an FFL and ask for a price they will give you the retail price and they are usually pretty good prices. But, If you are an FFL deal they direct your cal to another person and she will give you byour dealer price. It sounds to me like your dealer there doesn't have a clue and just orders from the Ad flier. As someone mentioned, it's the TX FFL's responsibility to know his business.

Please PM that FFL's info so I will know not to send my guns through them as well.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:08 pm

Why not just post his dba, that way we can all make up our own minds about doing business with him straight out and not encounter him and this bait-and-switch tactic accidentally?

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:44 pm

Chas. wrote:Yep, you dropped the ball. He's not supposed to inform you, you're supposed to ask questions, i.e. do you accept vintage firearms, antique firearms, handguns, shotguns, shipments from someone above the Mason-Dixon line, shipments from red states, senior citizens, etc.

I'd file a lawsuit to recover my money in Judge Judy's court.

Sorry,... I have to disagree. The FFL was selling a service, it is his responsibility to inform the buyer of any SMALL PRINT in the deal, IE define what he is selling with all the particulars included.

Bottom line. The FFL holder new what was what, when he was informed by HIS wholesaler that a new weapon was being shipped. At that point, if he wanted to change the verbal contract, he was obligated to call the buyer, Oli , and let him know of the circumstances.

This whole deal smells of a pure con job by the FFL holderr,... and you should publish his business name HERE AND NOW!!!

I would sue in small claims where the preponderance of evidence isn't as great as in other courts. And make him lose a day in his shop and maybe a lawyers fee, too boot!

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:45 pm

Old Savage wrote:Dealer is wrong here, in business you have to decide what you are going to do then make it clear to people. If you make a deal you have to keep and can't just change it. It is not your job to know his business. If there are details he needs to inform and guide the procedure.

Ooooops, didn't read this before posting above.

What Old Savage said!!

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:48 pm

L_Kilkenny wrote:I'm gonna post this (for starters) from the side of being in business....

We are electrical contractors. It used to be that you had wholesale prices and retail prices for electrical equipment. Now much of the material we use is sold at places like Menards, Home Depot and Lowes. They actually charge less than the cost to the local wholesale houses in some cases and definitely leave the contractors, the wholesale house, the hardware stores etc no room for mark up. None. It really sucks when you have to explain to customers every week why I charged him $200 for something he saw at Lowes for $125. They are competing with me and they take business from me. Lowes had a salesman stop by the shop one day wanting more of my business. I flat out explained 2 things. #1 was the same as above, that I prefer not to do business with my competition. #2, that if we gave them our business that it would hurt the local wholesale houses. Why should I care? Because those large discount house don't stock everything and dang little of a lot of stuff. Here is a scenario: The local contractors start doing business with the large discount house and they force the local house out of business. What happens when I suddenly need a 200 amp fuse, a main circuit breaker or 500' of 1" conduit? I'm hosed.

How does all this apply to your gun deal. First, if I was your local dealer I'd go to the wholesaler and demand they stop selling guns out from underneath me. I'd flat out tell them that they owe me a cut. If they didn't I'd refuse to do business with them. #2, what are you gonna do when the dealer goes out of business and you need a smith or an odd part in a timely fashion. You're hosed.

He was wrong. He told you he would charge $25 and should of stuck with it. I'm betting that at the time you didn't tell him you were going undercut him though and buy it from one of his wholesalers. Did you? He had a right to be mad but it doesn't make it right.

You were wrong because you undercut him. People whine and moan when main street closes up and then they do things like this. In your defense, you more than likely didn't realize you were under cutting him. You should of known though, fairly obvious. You think he should be happy when you buy a gun at his cost and close him out of a sale? Then you want him to do the paper work for a measly $25?

LK

And just how was Oly suppose to know he was buying out of state from this FFL's supplier? When the dam retailer didn't figure it out until shipping arrangements?

Inquiring minds want to know.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:56 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:
Mich hunter wrote:
And, just for everyone's information: CUSTOMERS DON'T NEED BUSINESSES. BUSINESSES NEED CUSTOMERS. That's how we operate and I will work nowhere that thinks any different for many reasons, such as what happened to Oly.
+1,000,000. This may sound rude, but I am not in the buisness of over paying for anything. My money is hard earned. If I can get it cheaper on the net, you better believe that is where I am going to purchase. If my dealer can get it cheaper, then I will go with him. Simple economics. I went out of town to buy my 2009 Chevy truck. I paid $7k less than what my local dealer wanted. It's a no brainer. Someone else wanted my buisness.
True, but in the case of a new gun you must have an FFL in your state willing to transfer it to you. And though there are still plenty around to handle such transfers, there aren't as many as there used to be since Janet Reno put the squeeze on back in the Clinton years. They eliminated a lot of FFL holders that didn't have storefronts or were casually dealing. We have the C&R FFL now but that doesn't help the new gun buyer.

Applying and receiving a FFL is not rocket science. Any law abiding citizen can acquire one. and if there ever is a shortage, more will apply than are needed. jmo

CaptainFinn · Post by **CaptainFinn** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:06 pm

The dealer can charge anything he wants, but at the same time, you can go anywhere you want to transfer the gun. Waiting until he has the gun in his possession to inform you of the 'new' price is greed, pure and simple, on his part.

Never give him your business again.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:48 pm

76/444 wrote:
Chas. wrote:Yep, you dropped the ball. He's not supposed to inform you, you're supposed to ask questions, i.e. do you accept vintage firearms, antique firearms, handguns, shotguns, shipments from someone above the Mason-Dixon line, shipments from red states, senior citizens, etc.

I'd file a lawsuit to recover my money in Judge Judy's court.

Sorry,... I have to disagree. The FFL was selling a service, it is his responsibility to inform the buyer of any SMALL PRINT in the deal, IE define what he is selling with all the particulars included.

You really thought I was serious??

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:48 pm

piller wrote:As one who runs a Pharmacy for Wal Mart, I understand that we must make a profit to survive. On the other hand, I have to be able to show the customers why they were charged the price they pay. I have willingly taken a loss of a few dollars several times in order to keep the customer for the long term. I get more business that way as the customers come back and bring their friends and family. I cannot always be upfront about prices due to the insurance companies having the authority to charge what they want and pay me what they want without any input from me and regardless of the cost to me of the medicine. I am always upfront about the cash price of a medicine. It is about the long term survival of a business by keeping customers and having them bring their family or friends on the next visit. I may lose $20 today, but I will gain $50,000 over your lifetime.

You've touched a nerve with me.

What many business people fail to understand is that SERVICE is what gets return business not just price. SERVICE is honoring commitments, being honest with the customer, looking out for the CUSTOMER's interest as well as your own. Given the business gun dealers have had this past year and the need they'll have for repeat business in the coming years, I can't understand why SERVICE isn't emphasized. The truth is that it isn't emphasized. They simply don't understand why it is important. Some are so bad that their own employees go elsewhere to buy guns. Now that's bad. Yes, it applies to all businesses. I'm always surprised by how many think they run their business when it is the customer that runs it. If you don't have what the customer wants, service, price, product, availability (the hours you're open) you don't have a business.

buxman66 · Post by **buxman66** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:30 pm

heres a variation but yet along the same topic= customers shop for less. me and my 82yr. old father just came from an afternoon at some gunshops,perusing their goodies,and also pricing some lasers for his little pocket pistol.the first shop wanted $300 for the crimson trace laser for his kel-tec p3at .380. the next shop wanted $219 same exact model,NIB. came home,warmed up the 'puter went on ebay,....lo and behold found the exact model # crimson trace laser for $165 w/free shipping!!! now what the heck do you think we're gonna do? you guessed it...ON-LINE PURCHASE!! sorry folks,i love my gunshops, but my wallet as well as my fathers weighs out. this is the same thing that oly did,he shopped for a better price. if nothing else has happened in this situation oly (as well as me!) has learned something. and i for 1 wont be forgeting any time soon.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:54 pm

In his first post the OP (Original Poster) said he'd ordered the gun from a Wholesaler and got it for a wholesale price. Later he said he ordered it from a retailer and got it at a retail price.

If the first case is true, I still hold with his local dealer; however, if the second case is true I hold with OP and most of you guys -- he was taken advantage of.

If I can get a better deal on something I want off the internet, I will generally buy it unless shipping wipes out the savings. How quick I want it also enters into it too of course.

There's a big difference between $300.00 and $165.00 for the Crimson Trace. I'd go for the internet deal for sure.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:44 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:
This is cut and dry and no amount of obfuscation can change it.

For some reason, FFL dealers think that the FFL gives them a magical curb on the market. An exclusive. Wrong! Only lawyers and unions get that, and they shouldn't.

I'm in sales and I love that word: obfuscation!

Now then, a deal is a deal, the dealer quoted $25...that's the deal. Unfortunately it seems this dealer is one that has a "magical curb on the market".

Now that being said, why do you think that all those jobs are being outsourced overseas? 'Cause we'll screw our neighbor to save a buck!

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:05 pm

Modoc ED wrote: In his first post the OP (Original Poster) said he'd ordered the gun from a Wholesaler and got it for a wholesale price. Later he said he ordered it from a retailer and got it at a retail price.

Ed, I never said that. What I said in my OP was that they (the gun shop that I've gotten sideways with) were angry that I'd ordered a firearm from their wholesaler at wholesale price. Problem is THAT'S NOT TRUE. They are mistaken about that because the price I paid for the firearm was RETAIL and is the same price any Tom, Dick or Harry can walk up to this shop and get day in/day out.

I went back and added some clarity to my original post but here's the truth as confirmed by the shop I bought the rifle from: I PAID RETAIL FOR THE GUN FROM A RETAIL SHOP.

I don't know how much more clear on that I can be!

Oly

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:19 pm

olyinaz wrote:
Modoc ED wrote: In his first post the OP (Original Poster) said he'd ordered the gun from a Wholesaler and got it for a wholesale price. Later he said he ordered it from a retailer and got it at a retail price.
Ed, I never said that. What I said in my OP was that they (the gun shop that I've gotten sideways with) were angry that I'd ordered a firearm from their wholesaler at wholesale price. Problem is THAT'S NOT TRUE. They are mistaken about that because the price I paid for the firearm was RETAIL and is the same price any Tom, Dick or Harry can walk up to this shop and get day in/day out.

I went back and added some clarity to my original post but here's the truth as confirmed by the shop I bought the rifle from: I PAID RETAIL FOR THE GUN FROM A RETAIL SHOP.

I don't know how much more clear on that I can be!

Oly

Don't get so jumpy. It's ok. I don't have a dog in this fight. You have edited your wording around a bit in your OP and it reads a little differently now. That's ok. In the end, I'd say there's blame on both sides -- yours because you didn't make it exactly clear what you were doing (from what I can tell) and theirs because they didn't make it exactly clear as to what you wanted to do.

In the end you got your new rifle. Put all this behind you and enjoy it. Don't shut the door on that dealer by the way. You just may need him someday.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:32 pm

Now that being said, why do you think that all those jobs are being outsourced overseas? 'Cause we'll screw our neighbor to save a buck!

Well I think that overstates things a bit because after all, almost everyone works too hard for not enough money so most of us look for the best deal on most things. But that said I've steered a bunch of business to this guy over the past year so I'm not some sort of mercenary consumer. And in this case I didn't buy from Taiwan - it was Kentucky fer Pete's sake.

With that said, I work in the airline business for a "legacy carrier" (an old airline) so I'm very attuned to what you're talking about. People will fly some startup airline with no established safety record if the tickets are $5 cheaper and it's been proven time and time again. Those folks buried in the mud of the Florida Everglades got some great deals on those Value Jet tickets right up until the point of impact! (And I mean no disrespect if anyone here knew a victim.)

So what's established business to do? Exactly what mine has been doing now for a decade (VERY PAINFULLY) - adapt. Adapt or die. The internet and some sort of presence there is no longer an option in the 21st Century, nor is expecting folks to pay outrageous markups compared to the going rate in the same town. As much as I liked this mom & pop store before this incident you can mark my words - they'll be out of business in a few years. Firstly they're out of touch and have no desire to be dragged into the 21st Century and secondly you can't treat people the way they treated me and stay in business if you're an old-style business that has only customer service to hang your hat on.

Regards,
Oly

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:50 pm

Sorry you got bent over Oly

kind of makes me mad just thinking about it.

What i have done recently is buy my new guns through a pawn shop . My local pawn shop does not dicker with new guns and could care less where my order came from or whether it is new , used, or otherwise -- i just give him 25 bucks and head on down the road.

I send used guns through a local gunsmith --- He charges 30 dollars, but will invariably look the thing over with a very practiced eye (he just does this out of habit with everything --- he doesnt gauge the chamber or anything -- just points out any obvious problems i might need to deal with with my used gun) --- This gunsmith sells a few items and gets a ton of accessory business as a result --- but he is very out of touch on new gun prices (or he just may not be able to get them very cheap) -- I dont want to pee him off by sending a new gun through his shop

Long story short --- this is highly unlikely the last gun you will ever buy -- so get with a pawn shop or FFL holding individual for the new stuff, but keep scouring the shops for unique old stuff that might come through

45-70marlin · Post by **45-70marlin** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:28 pm

+ 1 on the pawn shops. I deal with them here in S.C. no problems. dont matter new or old or where you got it. You paid for the gun so it should have been put in your name where you got it. I think a transfer only makes sure you can have it but dont prove ownership?

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:43 pm

olyinaz, look on the bright side, you've got a new rifle and you started a five page thread!

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:12 pm

Old Time Hunter wrote:Now that being said, why do you think that all those jobs are being outsourced overseas? 'Cause we'll screw our neighbor to save a buck!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is capitalism in a free market. Only this time it was the dealer who did the screwing.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:27 am

olyinaz, look on the bright side, you've got a new rifle and you started a five page thread!

LOL. Yes, there is that and it's still a pretty cool rifle so life ain't too bad.

But call me Oly folks, just Oly. (Same as the beer ceppin it's Norwegian.)

Best,
Oly

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:47 am

Chas. wrote:
Old Time Hunter wrote:Now that being said, why do you think that all those jobs are being outsourced overseas? 'Cause we'll screw our neighbor to save a buck!
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is capitalism in a free market. Only this time it was the dealer who did the screwing.

Well it would be if you could sell your products the same over there as you do here. No such thing as "free market" or "fair market"...there is always strings attached, usually by those that control the market. Whether that be an FFL holder in Arizona or Pharmacuetical company in New Jersey, they will use what ever means allowed to control the market here, knowing the psyche of the consumer and the rules they can enforce.

edsguns · Post by **edsguns** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:18 pm

I've purchased a lot of firearms via the internet from both dealers and individuals and both new and used. I know first hand how much can be saved by doing one's homework and buying in this manner. Although I am not a dealer, nor have a FFL, I can also understand a dealer/gun shop owner's feelings when new firearms are purchased and transferred through his business and he makes little to zilch from you(me), the buyer.

I've used several different shops in doing my purchases and some (most) have begun to get funny about the transfers, when they become multiple. They seem to feel I should be buying my guns through them rather than simply transferring through them. One thing I've never done was to have a gun transferred before making a call to the shop/owner/manager.

Many shops change the rules, when the gun in question is one they could have sold and made money on. Saving money via local transfer is a good thing, IMO, but all buyers bear the weight of responsibility to have each shipment/transfer approved, prior to ordering, period.

Buying guns at Wally World or via the internet is great on our wallets, perhaps. But, doesn't do much for the small shop and their owners, unfortunately. There are two sides to the story.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:44 pm

Chas. wrote:
76/444 wrote:
Chas. wrote:Yep, you dropped the ball. He's not supposed to inform you, you're supposed to ask questions, i.e. do you accept vintage firearms, antique firearms, handguns, shotguns, shipments from someone above the Mason-Dixon line, shipments from red states, senior citizens, etc.

I'd file a lawsuit to recover my money in Judge Judy's court.

Sorry,... I have to disagree. The FFL was selling a service, it is his responsibility to inform the buyer of any SMALL PRINT in the deal, IE define what he is selling with all the particulars included.
You really thought I was serious??

Sorry,.... didn't see any smiley's!!

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:46 pm

Hobie wrote:
piller wrote:As one who runs a Pharmacy for Wal Mart, I understand that we must make a profit to survive. On the other hand, I have to be able to show the customers why they were charged the price they pay. I have willingly taken a loss of a few dollars several times in order to keep the customer for the long term. I get more business that way as the customers come back and bring their friends and family. I cannot always be upfront about prices due to the insurance companies having the authority to charge what they want and pay me what they want without any input from me and regardless of the cost to me of the medicine. I am always upfront about the cash price of a medicine. It is about the long term survival of a business by keeping customers and having them bring their family or friends on the next visit. I may lose $20 today, but I will gain $50,000 over your lifetime.
You've touched a nerve with me.

What many business people fail to understand is that SERVICE is what gets return business not just price. SERVICE is honoring commitments, being honest with the customer, looking out for the CUSTOMER's interest as well as your own. Given the business gun dealers have had this past year and the need they'll have for repeat business in the coming years, I can't understand why SERVICE isn't emphasized. The truth is that it isn't emphasized. They simply don't understand why it is important. Some are so bad that their own employees go elsewhere to buy guns. Now that's bad. Yes, it applies to all businesses. I'm always surprised by how many think they run their business when it is the customer that runs it. If you don't have what the customer wants, service, price, product, availability (the hours you're open) you don't have a business.

Well said!

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:51 pm

Modoc ED wrote:
olyinaz wrote:
Modoc ED wrote: In his first post the OP (Original Poster) said he'd ordered the gun from a Wholesaler and got it for a wholesale price. Later he said he ordered it from a retailer and got it at a retail price.
Ed, I never said that. What I said in my OP was that they (the gun shop that I've gotten sideways with) were angry that I'd ordered a firearm from their wholesaler at wholesale price. Problem is THAT'S NOT TRUE. They are mistaken about that because the price I paid for the firearm was RETAIL and is the same price any Tom, Dick or Harry can walk up to this shop and get day in/day out.

I went back and added some clarity to my original post but here's the truth as confirmed by the shop I bought the rifle from: I PAID RETAIL FOR THE GUN FROM A RETAIL SHOP.

I don't know how much more clear on that I can be!

Oly
Don't get so jumpy. It's ok. I don't have a dog in this fight. You have edited your wording around a bit in your OP and it reads a little differently now. That's ok. In the end, I'd say there's blame on both sides -- yours because you didn't make it exactly clear what you were doing (from what I can tell) and theirs because they didn't make it exactly clear as to what you wanted to do.

In the end you got your new rifle. Put all this behind you and enjoy it. Don't shut the door on that dealer by the way. You just may need him someday.

Hmmmmmm,... seemed rather PERFECTLY CLEAR to me! He wanted them to receive a weapon he had purchased out of state and they said it would be 25 bucks!

What's not clear?

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:16 pm

I'd say the dealer is a crook.

He said he'd charge $25 for a transfer period. If he wanted to ad qualifiers to that statement he should have said so at the beginning.

IMHO he's not entitled to any mark up as he had nothing at stake. He didn't tie up his money.
In my state he's not able to charge tax on it either.

I'd post his name on as many places as I could and file as many formal complaints with any one who would take the paper. You might even have a state consumer affairs dept. that would be interested as this might be considered bait and switch.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:55 pm

nemhed wrote:olyinaz, look on the bright side, you've got a new rifle and you started a five page thread!

You know the trick to starting a long thread??? Include the words "tell me if I'm wrong" in the subject!

Now my 2 cents. It makes no difference if the gun was retail or wholesale. Oly had a deal with the seller and made the purchase. If the dealer had a problem with the arrangement, his beef is with his wholesaler, not Oly.

I have tried and tried to buy guns from our local shops. None of them stock much of anything. They want above new prices for worn out stuff. If you try to get them to order new for you, they claim their cost is more than what you could get the gun elsewhere for , including shipping and transfer. Then they want to add 10 or 20%. I know its not their fault that their wholesaler will sell to the public.
Guns show dealers buy so many guns at once that they get a price break that the local shop can't get. The local dealers also have a hard time stocking anything of interest because we live in a area where there is a major gun show within 100 miles almost every weekend. Only once in 25 years have I gone to the gun show looking for something in particular (in new guns) and not found what I was looking for at a wholesale price.

There hasn't been a full service gun shop here in years . (one that will buy, sell, and repair guns.) I save money everytime I buy a gun on the internet, but if I need gunsmithing outside my capabilities, it cost me more to find a shop I trust and ship my gun there.

I'll stop rambling now.

JB · Post by JB » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:13 pm

I agree the dealer was wrong. If he quoted $25.00 for a transfer, he should stick to it. At best he should have told that he misunderstood what you were doing and would have to charge more for similar transactions in the future. In my opinion, the bad PR he'll receive (even locally) doesn't warrant the profit he made on the rifle.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:36 pm

To all:

The shop in question is the Thunderstick Trading Post in Tucson. I was willing to let this whole thing fall under the running boards as a simple misunderstanding (me misunderstanding that a flat rate $25 FFL transfer fee really meant "unless" or "maybe if", and them misunderstanding what terms like wholesale and retail and out-of-state dealer mean) and move on but I discovered that this shop really crossed the line, called another shop that I do business with and ran me (and Centerfire System) down BY NAME. Which makes me darn angry.

Thankfully I happened to be in the other shop when I heard my name float out of the office (and how would that grab you I might ask) so I said, "Exqueeze me, but that person is ME. Shall we talk about it?" I explained my side of the story, told them about the internet add for the gun, told them that I'd called and purchased it from the out-of-state business and they agreed that it would have been a simple FFL transfer with them.

So in a nutshell I was willing to chalk it up to "live and learn" but to heck with that when they're running my name down around town. THUNDERSTICK TRADING POST IN TUCSON - I highly recommend that you avoid them!

Thanks to all who replied,
Oly

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:05 pm

Charles wrote:My opinion is there was a communication issue and the blame can be placed on either or both parties. Take your pick.

Most stocking dealers I know won't do a transfer on new firearms they can order, for the reasons stated by the dealer in this case. They will do a transfer for a reasonable fee on a used firearms. An order of a new gun is an order, and a transfer is of a used or unavailable gun. There is a difference and the buyer needs to ask the right questions.

If I want a new firearm I go to my dealer and he orders it for me and I negotiate a price before the order/sale is made.

If I want to use his FFL for a transfer of a firearm he can't order from a jobber, he charges me a small fee.

These are the rules in my part of the world and if the buyer doesn't know them, he needs to ask! Even a non-stocking dealer will try and make a few bucks off the transfer. Everybody has to eat!

+1.
Only thing I'll add is regarding sales tax. I'm not a lawyer but dont figure sales tax can be charged by anyone except who sold you the gun. When I do a transfer my FFL never even asked what I paid for the gun except out of curiosity if the gun interests him. I did have another try to go that route but didn't use him. He kept asking me the selling price and eventually I said "five bucks" and he blew a gasket. As I said I'm not a lawyer & I dont know all the ins & outs, but I do know that in several dozen other transfers all anybody ever cared about was their fee.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:33 pm

An analogy might be buying a set of tires from tirerack.com. The local garage says they will mount tires for you for $10 per wheel + $1 disposal fee - $11 per tire. Tires arrive via UPS and you take them to the garage. They jack up your truck, install the tires, then tell you that you owe $271.00 because they're charging you the difference in what you paid and what they would sell them to you for - plus tax. You can't get your truck out of their garage until you pay them.

I would be at the State Consumer Affairs Division before the week was out, and maybe the local attorney general. That's just plain fraud.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:15 pm

Chas. wrote: An analogy might be buying a set of tires from tirerack.com. The local garage says they will mount tires for you for $10 per wheel + $1 disposal fee - $11 per tire. Tires arrive via UPS and you take them to the garage. They jack up your truck, install the tires, then tell you that you owe $271.00 because they're charging you the difference in what you paid and what they would sell them to you for - plus tax. You can't get your truck out of their garage until you pay them.

You forgot to add, "Then they call the other tire shops in town and run your name down for thinking you can buy from TireRack.com for what they think are wholesale prices."

Oly

buxman66 · Post by **buxman66** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:30 am

i still can't for the life of me,understand how anybody can defend this transaction! no offense is meant to anyone w/ a differing opinion......

but dang! this is an out an out yankjob in my opinion.we all gotta eat i know......but consumers are gonna go w/the price that is less, for the same or better quality if at all possible. i would be happy,personally,to do a transaction that will net me $25 smackers for doing nothing other than signing for a ups package.also the prospect of having a returning customer to buy their accessories and such that will give me a margin of profit. unbelievable....