Please tell me if I'm wrong re. dealer

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:18 pm

Howdy folks,

Please let me run a situation past you and let me know if you think I'm wrong. We have a local dealer here in Tucson, nice folks, but I've gotten sideways with them over an internet purchase of a firearm.

I asked this dealer if they do FFL transfers and they told me that, yes, they do and that the fee is a flat rate $25.

I found a rifle for sale on the internet from a large dealer called Centerfire Systems at a very good price, called them, and purchased the rifle from them using a Visa over the phone. They asked me where I'd like to ship the rifle in Arizona and I asked them if they had any FFLs already on file of dealers they work with and they said yes - "Dealer X" (I'll tell you later, but I want to make sure I'm correct before I run anyone's name but mine through the mud). I said that's great because I've already asked them if they do FFL transfers so they should work well.

They call the dealer, send the rifle, the dealer calls me and I go to pick up my Christmas present on Dec. 24th. Here's where things went astray. The dealer here in Tucson was very upset that I had (in their opinion) ordered a rifle from a wholesaler using their FFL and that as a result I would need to pay them $105 to take possession of the rifle (sales tax, dealer markup, and a shipping fee). I told them I had no idea what they were talking about and that I'd purchased the rifle from an out of state dealer, had it sent to them, and I need to do an FFL transfer as we'd previously discussed so that I can take possession of the rifle.

"Yes, but it's a new rifle. We have a business to run here and we're getting tired of people using our FFL to buy rifles wholesale and avoid paying a dealer markup."

Long story longer, I negotiated them down to $65 (sales tax and transfer fee and a partial markup) in order to get my rifle and get home for Christmas but I feel as if I've been, well, screwed over. I didn't buy the rifle from these folks and I don't see any reason why they should feel that they need to charge me sales tax. I also feel as if it's a back door screw job to tell me after the fact that they'd have had no problem with the transfer if it was from other shops or a used gun but since it's a new rifle from this dealer, whom they consider a wholesaler, they have heartburn with it.

I've tried to be pretty sanguine about this (I still got a very good deal on the rifle) but dangit it's not my fault the way the world is going (internet operators often have products for far less than local dealers etc. etc.) and a standard $25 transfer fee (as I was told) should be just that - STANDARD. Not variable depending upon if you dislike the business practices of the out of state dealer in question.

My error, which I freely acknowledge now, after the fact, is that I didn't call the shop to ask them about this particular purchase in order to cut this problem off at the pass before I got jumped by it when I was short of time but, again, I DID ask the shop if they do transfers and if it was okay for me to use them in the future for some internet purchases so I don't feel as if I was completely out to lunch on this.

In short: I feel as if I should have been charged a straight $25 FFL transfer fee as previously discussed, that markup should not have anything to do with this transaction since I did not buy the firearm from them, and that charging me sales tax was completely inappropriate. I may indeed have deserved a good talking to about not co-ordinating the particulars of this very transfer beforehand (which I did not fully appreciate) but that's all there is to it - a talking to. Not, "We hate it when people buy cheap off the internet so we're going to hold your rifle ransom." Which is exactly what they did in my view.

Well, enough of my point of view. I'd love to hear yours.

Thanks,
Oly

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:32 pm

Short version - they did you wrong if they did not mention the other fees up front. If they charged you the sales tax, then they had better report the sale and pay their tax portion. The $25 covered their work/effort. Challenge them on it and then find another shop to deal with.. My local dealer does it for $10, but $25 is more common.

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:32 pm

I am not passing any kind of judgement here just stating the agreement I have with my LGS. If they have it in stock I buy from them, if they can order it I pay a 10% ffl fee and the shipping and background check. If it is used I can use their ffl but it cost $25 plus shipping plus background check. That's just the way it is here, but charging you tax I don't know about? Tom

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:37 pm

They quoted you $25 for a transfer. That it what you should have paid.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:42 pm

Sales tax on what? You bought the gun from an out of state dealer, and the PRICE you paid via CC is not to them and they cannot by law tax it. AAMOF it's none of their business to know what you paid. They can ASK any fee they want (not taxable) but if they quoted $25, then the better business folks or even state attorney would get a call over this.

My local guy always gets first crack. I ask him to try and find me a gun. If he says he can't find it via his suppliers or his pencil is waaay too dull, I buy online or over the phone and he gets $35 to "catch and book" it (his term).

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:53 pm

I do not charge established customers for a transfer.

I charge $25 for a transfer to a customer I've never met before. If that person makes any purchase at the time they pick up the gun I do not charge a transfer fee.

Some states consider the transfer a sale, based on the fact that the consumer could not make the purchase without a sales tax dealer. The sales price is either the receipt price from the source of sale OR the current book value. I don't know the law in your state.

What happend to you is wrong!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:59 pm

If I understand what I've read, I think that the mistake you made was buying direct from his distributor and then figuratively rubbing his nose in it by asking him to handle the transfer. He wanted his cut, even though you did the dirty work.

Personally, I'd take my business elsewhere.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:04 pm

IMO, you got taken.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:14 pm

I think the dealer was right and this statement from the dealer that you said he made is the reason why.

"Yes, but it's a new rifle. We have a business to run here and we're getting tired of people using our FFL to buy rifles wholesale and avoid paying a dealer markup."

He's exactly right. You got a gun he could have gotten for you but you did an end round around him and expect the gun for no mark-up.

NOW, suppose you had found an older gun (maybe one not made anymore) and you bought it and had it shipped to the dealer. In that case the dealer wouldn't expect to make a profit on it and would have done the paper-work for you for $25.00.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:23 pm

What FFL doesn't understand what "FFL transfer" means?

Especailly if you were talking in terms of shipping a rifle to him for the transfer.

It matters not where the rifle came from as long as it was a legal source. If they cared about this, they should have metnioned it up front.

They were dishonest and stole from you IMHO.

You were not liable for sales tax that is complete BS. The only sales tax he could have charged was on the $25 fee.

I would not only post their name here (and every other board that I belonged to), I would tell everyone that I knew locally about them ripping you off as well. They deserve the bad press and loss of business.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:25 pm

In my opinion, they intentionally screwed you. Could be that they didn't know it was a new gun until it showed up. Either way they had no right to expect anything more than the $25 transfer fee unless they had told you their deal before hand.

One of my local shops flat refuse to do transfers on a NEW gun bought elsewhere. Can't say I blame them, but at least they're up front about it.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:27 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:What FFL doesn't understand what "FFL transfer" means?

Especailly if you were talking in terms of shipping a rifle to him for the transfer.

It matters not where the rifle came from as long as it was a legal source. If they cared about this, they should have metnioned it up front. They probably figured he wouldn't have been so bold as to order a rifle wholesale from one of their wholesalers.

They were dishonest and stole from you IMHO.

You were not liable for sales tax that is complete BS. The only sales tax he could have charged was on the $25 fee.

I would not only post their name here (and every other board that I belonged to), I would tell everyone that I knew locally about them ripping you off as well. They deserve the bad press and loss of business. If you're going to take that route, then the dealer should put the guys name every 5-feet along his counter with a statement that he rips off local dealers and refuse to do business with him in the future.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:44 pm

Modoc Ed, I'm sorry but I just can't see it that way - at all. Oly did nothing wrong or unethical.

If this dealer doesn't want to do business and take the $25 for doing the paperwork on new firearm purchases, he should ask CUSTOMERS up front the details of the transaction. As the supposed "professional", the dealer is the one most responsible for doing this.

What the dealer did in this case was clearly dishonest and unethical. The dealer was in a postition to hold the bought and paid for rifle over the head of the CUSTOMER and demand extortion money to release it.

If a dealer doesn't want this type of business, that is fine - but its HIS job to determine the specifics before agreeing to a business transaction.

I buy about 75% of my firearms this way. My local dealer is fine with this as I also purchase some retail from him and I also have helped him in various ways including selling some of my firearms on consignment with him.

He is totally ethical and responsible. He understands what CUSTOMER service is and does not enter into agreements and then renegg or use the possession of a firearm to extort money from them.

I suppose you are also abhorrant of Curio and Relic collectors? I know many dealers who are - who regard C&R FFL holders as illegitimate.

I find that there is a certain percentage - maybe around 10% of the FFL dealers that simply have no business being in the business. They are underhanded cowards. Fortunately, most of these jerks go under due to a dwindling number of victims.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:49 pm

Sales tax is correct as you took posession of the gun in your state. Happened to me 4 times when I was in CA. $25 FFl transfer is correct. The rest is BS. I've purchased 4 guns via the web and was told up front all charges with two different FFL owners (in CA the fees range from $45 to $65 for just FFL transfer). I don't think I'd darken his door again...

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:59 pm

If the dealer isn't taking in the money for the rifle itself, there is no sales tax due in Texas unless the wholesaler was also in Texas.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:06 pm

YOU GOT CONNED!!!!!

I believe there was legislation passed or is being considered here in Az,... that we, as internet buyers, are responsible for paying taxes on out of state purchases. I don't know if it passed.

BUT!!!! That is between YOU and the STATE!!!

Any middleman receiving the shipment, hasn't a dam thing to do with collecting taxes and you should turn them into the state for fraud and theft.

Bottom line,... YOU are a DAM FOOL!

When they started playing this con game on you, you should have whipped out your phone, called the seller in front of him, and told him you were refusing shipment and why.

If this FFL holder, as you stated, made a verbal contract with you, and, he also works as the seller's rep and receiver,.... I don't think the seller would have been very happy to hear about the screw job you got.

Call the seller, tell him about it!

Call the state, tell then about it!

jmho

oic0 · Post by **oic0** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:20 pm

Yep you got screwed. When they were contacted for the FFL info and given information on the order they shouldn't have accepted if they don't do new guns. Plain and simple. To accept it and then extort money out of you while holding on to it is WRONG.

I recently bought a gun the same way. The local ones around here charge $10 - 35. The big retail chains charge sales tax on the item. . Lorant's for instance upfront stated that they would charge sales tax. The small shops, gun smiths, etc... don't. It might have to do with the big ones potentially having operations in the same state it was bought in and having to pay taxes in that state? anyhow I don't know. Mine was a flat $10 at a gunsmiths shop.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:49 pm

It sounds as if you got screwed.

Sales tax is not applicalbe in most states unless you bought the item
there, or the company you bought it from has a store in that state.

If he quoted you a "flat fee" - that's just what it means: A fee for the FFL
service regardless of what you buy. $25 is good money for the 15 minutes
it takes to do the paperwork. ('Course I'm not a lawyer or a surgeon.......)

I deal with an old friend I've dealt with for years. It's $30 now to use his
FFL, and he mails the info with your order. He doesn't give his FFL out to
anybody. He's also VERY upfront about it. If you don't like it, use somebody
else. If he had a problem with me getting a really good deal on the internet
or something, he'd tell me, and we'd work out a deal like the gentlemen we
both are. I send some business his way, and he isn't out to make a killing.
Everybody's happy.

I know if a dealer did that to me, it'd be the LAST time I shopped with him.
And I'd make a point of making sure he knew this and why.

-Slim

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:06 pm

My opinion is there was a communication issue and the blame can be placed on either or both parties. Take your pick.

Most stocking dealers I know won't do a transfer on new firearms they can order, for the reasons stated by the dealer in this case. They will do a transfer for a reasonable fee on a used firearms. An order of a new gun is an order, and a transfer is of a used or unavailable gun. There is a difference and the buyer needs to ask the right questions.

If I want a new firearm I go to my dealer and he orders it for me and I negotiate a price before the order/sale is made.

If I want to use his FFL for a transfer of a firearm he can't order from a jobber, he charges me a small fee.

These are the rules in my part of the world and if the buyer doesn't know them, he needs to ask! Even a non-stocking dealer will try and make a few bucks off the transfer. Everybody has to eat!

buxman66 · Post by **buxman66** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:11 pm

i'd have to concur w/ all the other posters ('cept murdoc ed,and i'd most likely say he is a brick and mortar dealer also!). that being said if the way that this fella does bizness is in this fashion he should at least said so right up front.whats to say that he in turn does'nt do the same thing w/ on-line purchases? imo he done you dirty and i'd let him know about it.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:15 pm

here in Pa, no sales tax on transfers, the dealer does not get any money on the gun sale, no matter where it comes from. $25 transfer fee. I also pay for the instant background check. You got ripped off. NO sales tax should have been collect except on the mark up which you should have not had to pay. The dealer made the $$ on the transfer, which is more than he would have made on a box of ammo at $25. He misrepresented the info and screwed you. Glad you got the rifle, sorry for the problems. I always try to purchase a box of ammo or a holster or gun case when i get a firearm in to my ffl.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:43 pm

Generally, I'm on the Modoc Ed and Charles side of this one. I think the dealer SHOULD have refused the transfer when he was in contact with the shipper because at that time he probably became aware of what the situation was. In that case, he did hold your firearm hostage to extract an unexpected fee from you. Of course, one of his employees may have setup the transfer and he may not have become aware until the item came into the shop.

However, dealers with FFL's sell firearms for a living. They can't survive on $25 transfer fees. They have to make money selling guns and accessories. There's a local dealer here that I will often transfer through but he is a major dealer. I don't buy new firearms on the Internet and ask him to transfer it without talking to him about it first to see if he can get me a decent deal on it himself.

If you're trying to buy new stuff at Internet prices, there are often several people in an area that hold FFL's that don't have retail shops. Often, these are pawn shop owners that never see new stuff and charge a simple transfer fee. In the future you would probably be better off going through one of them instead of a full stocking dealer for "new" gun acquisitions.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:44 pm

I'd say they hammered you! I would have refused the gun, called Centerfire and told them about it. Then asked help in getting it straightened out. If I got no satisfaction, I would have called the credit card company- disputed the charge and had the dealer return it. then perhaps started over with a new dealer.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:48 pm

I had to go back and read the initial post to try and get an understanding on what happened.

It sounds as if you bought a firearm off the internet, out of state and had it sent to an FFL dealer for a transfer in your state with a prior understanding with the receiving FFL dealer. If that's the case, than you should of paid the $25 transfer fee and been done with it. No sales tax or anything else.

Now, if there was a misunderstanding between you and the selling company that they would sell the firearm to the chosen FFL dealer in question at a wholesale price and leave it up to the FFL dealer to set the final price that's different. If the internet company sold the firearm to the FFL dealer for the wholesale price, one shouldn't expect to get a wholesale price by running it through a retail store. But, that isn't how I read it. I've read replies to your post that relate to that being the case.

If it's the way I read it and it was just a transfer, you were screwed. If it was the other, than there was a misunderstanding.

I feel for the retail FFL dealer's trying to stay in business with the internet cutting into the overhead, but that's the way it is and either don't do the transfers if it ticks ya off that bad or do them the transfers and shut up. Or, get into the internet business as well (which I'd do if I were in business).

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:05 pm

Let's look at this from both sides. We are ONLY talking about a NEW gun here. You should have made sure the dealer knew it was a new gun and not a used one. It's all the difference in the world to him. He would then have had the option of selling you the same gun, buying through his wholesaler, for an agreed price; selling the same gun to you, from his wholesaler, at your price; or refusing the deal and/or the transfer.
On the other hand HE should have asked you if it was a new gun, and made his decision then. In either case the ball got dropped by both parties.
If I am buying a NEW gun that needs FFL paperwork, I always let my dealer have a crack at the deal if the gun is available to him from his wholesaler. And since I like to buy locally (small town) I even paid a bit more once to do the deal with him. I think it was 10%.
Since C&R guns are normally used ones, I can't see any reason for any dealer to raise his eyebrows over a C&R license. That's a quick $10-25 + in his pocket. If he does, go somewhere else!

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:07 pm

buxman66 wrote:i'd have to concur w/ all the other posters ('cept murdoc ed,and i'd most likely say he is a brick and mortar dealer also! What orifice of your body did that come from? You falsely accuse me of beigh a merchant.). that being said if the way that this fella does bizness is in this fashion he should at least said so right up front.whats to say that he in turn does'nt do the same thing w/ on-line purchases? imo he done you dirty and i'd let him know about it.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:20 pm

You weren't wrong... the dealer wasn't right. But... the dealer was only wrong in charging you tax on a sale that he didn't make. If you paid the internet seller for the item... new or used... it is he responsibility to collect any applicable taxes and pay those to the appropriate entitites.

I can certainly understand his ire. I've had a couple of ocassions to order new goods from a seller and had them transferred to me via local (and not-so-local) dealers. In both cases I was offered a BARGAIN by a friend (who happens to be an importer in another state) that I accepted before I fully thought about the ramifications. However, in both instances I explained the nature and circumstances of my purchase to the transfering FFL holder. I've done other business with both since, but not involving transfers. In fact, had not my regular pard that handled those for me passed from cancer, both those transactions would have gone thru him.

If you really have some heartburn... check out the local law... ie, make sure you're not liable for sales tax in AZ for goods purchased out of state, (some states have passed laws regarding internet sales specifically in the past few years). If that's not the case... then contact your franchise tax board, or whatever passes for the agency charged with tax collection in AZ and make sure the dealer has passed thru what he collected from you to them. I trust he gave you a receipt indicating the nature of the services rendered and fees collected, including the tax.

Good luck... oh, and let it be a learning experience in either case... if you still got a good deal... smile, be happy... and get EVEN!!!

buxman66 · Post by **buxman66** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:49 pm

all kinds of learnin goin' on here! several things have been said that have ticked off some people.some things come as an "assumption". consumers come from 1 side of the aisle and dealers/ffl holders/people in it for profit,come from the other side of the aisle. i understand the dealers point of view,but it should have been clearly stated and their employees should know this if it is a phone conversation vs. over the counter bussiness transaction. we (being the consumer) should also know,that the store owner needs to make a living and they have to protect the way they make a living. all this being said,the transaction should be clearly stated in how a new firearm transaction should take place. hey! take care there ed!

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:51 pm

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Hard to tell without hearing both sides of the story.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:01 pm

You got hosed. You called ahead and asked if they did transfers. They said yes, then when you commit to the deal they come up with more charges. This reminds me of the commercial where the guy asked the little girl if she wants to ride the bike and when she tries to he tells her she has to stay inside the marks or he will have to charge her a penalty. Sure, the dealer can do this but if that is an indication of how he does business he won't be in the gun business much longer.
Because there is so little markup in guns successful brick and mortar guns stores don't make a profit off guns, or at least what they make is absorbed in overhead. They make the best return on accessory, ammo and such. That's why you see so few guns compared to all the other stuff in the store. Successful stores will gladly do transfers just to get you in the door so they can sell the high margin stuff.
These things I'm saying here aren't just my ideas. I'm an NSSF member and I get the industry mag every month. Because of the growth trend of this internet gun sales and transfers it has been covered a few times. According to these folks this is how the big successful stores operate. The number one objective is to get them in the door. Do transfers and then sell them every thing they need for the new gun.

O.S.O.K. wrote:If the dealer isn't taking in the money for the rifle itself, there is no sales tax due in Texas unless the wholesaler was also in Texas.

I would sure like to see the case law or the statues to back up that statement. The guy at the local tax office tells me I'm supposed to collect sales tax on these transfer guns. I ask him to provide the case law or statues too but they have never got back to me. Bottom line is I just don't know. But, it does worry me that the really big stores collect sales tax on the transfers they do. They got accountants and lawyers so maybe they know something I don't.

I would add, we use QuickBooks and there is no provision in quickbooks to collect sales tax on money I never receive. ??

??

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:05 pm

Modoc ED wrote:They probably figured he wouldn't have been so bold as to order a rifle wholesale from one of their wholesalers.

Hold on now Ed, I did not do that. Maybe I didn't make it clear in my OP, but I bought the rifle RETAIL from another dealer out of state. I called today and confirmed that fact just to make sure that I had not misunderstood some facet of the purchase. No, I bought it retail from a retail dealer at his asking price and all I needed/expected was an FFL transfer in Tucson from a dealer that told me that they were happy to do FFL transfers for a flat $25 fee.

The more I've thought about this more angry it makes me because I've done business with this shop before and they've told me that they accept guns from Bud's from on-line purchases which should be no different than my case. The only problem they seem to have is with Centerfire Systems and the fact that they offer their guns at such low prices to the public. Brick and mortar retailers hate Amazon and Wal-Mart and Costco and Tiger Direct etc. etc. as well but that's not my problem and in this case they should have been upfront about it but they weren't when I asked them about FFL transfers.

I'm convinced that it was improper for them to charge me sales tax and a markup on the item and what it boils down to is that they held my rifle ransom which is easy to do on Christmas Eve Day with a guy's Christmas gift. Obviously I was going to pay pretty much whatever I needed to, within reason, to get my rifle that day and they took me for $65 instead of $25 for an FFL transfer and that's low down if you ask me.

It's small beans in the grand scheme of things but no one likes to get screwed and I'm convinced that's exactly what I got in this case.

Disgusted,
Oly

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:11 pm

Charles: +1.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:14 pm

I still say it was a rotten way to handle themselves. I certainly wouldn't do business with them anymore and would let everyone I know how they treated you. Chances are you're not the first one they've screwed like that.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:15 pm

I'll tell you what I think and you can, of course, choose to say bad things about me, argue or whatever.

In some states dealers are REQUIRED to collect the sales tax. I don't know about AZ, but that is true is some states. That a dealer in a state that requires it doesn't do it isn't a concern to me, but it is required in some states.

I think he did you wrong in that he told you $25 for the transfer but reneged and/or didn't fully inform you as to his rules. He should have honored the commitment. I think you did him wrong if you bought a gun he stocked or could have ordered for you. That it is a "new" gun isn't important. E.g. some dealers can't get some new guns (the recent Lipsey's .44 Spec FTs are but one example) but others can. My dealer ordered it all day long but wasn't going to get another one in. On the other hand, everyone deserves some respect. If he could have gotten the new gun for a competitive price he should have been given the opportunity.

Shipping fee? Ridiculous. You've paid your shipping fee.

As to HIS wholesaler selling direct to you, well, then his WHOLESALER did him "wrong", not you. BTW, USFA was doing this. You can/could buy direct from them and they'd ship to one of their dealers. All it cost at my end was the transfer fee and background check.

I'd say that for $65 you got a cheap lesson about his character and business practices. You might HAVE to deal with him again.

buxman66 · Post by **buxman66** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:16 pm

well said oly. and i agree w/ you.tell your friends/coworkers of how they conduct their business.hope you enjoy your rifle tho!

have a safe new year also.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:17 pm

olyinaz wrote:
Modoc ED wrote:They probably figured he wouldn't have been so bold as to order a rifle wholesale from one of their wholesalers.
Hold on now Ed, I did not do that. Maybe I didn't make it clear in my OP, but I bought the rifle RETAIL from another dealer out of state. I called today and confirmed that fact just to make sure that I had not understood some facet of the purchase. No, I bought it retail from a retail dealer at his asking price and all I needed/expected was an FFL transfer in Tucson from a dealer that told me that they were happy to do FFL transfers for a flat $25 fee.

The more I've thought about this more angry it makes me because I've done business with this shop before and they've told me that they accept guns from Bud's from on-line purchases which should be no different than my case. The only problem they seem to have is with Centerfire Systems and the fact that they offer their guns at such low prices to the public. Brick and mortar retailers hate Amazon and Wal-Mart and Costco and Tiger Direct etc. etc. as well but that's not my problem and in this case they should have been upfront about it but they weren't when I asked them about FFL transfers.

I'm convinced that it was improper for them to charge me sales tax and a markup on the item and what it boils down to is that they held my rifle ransom which is easy to do on Christmas Eve Day with a guy's Christmas gift. Obviously I was going to pay pretty much whatever I needed to, within reason, to get my rifle that day and they took me for $65 instead of $25 for an FFL transfer and that's low down if you ask me.

It's small beans in the grand scheme of things but no one likes to get screwed and I'm convinced that's exactly what I got in this case.

Disgusted,
Oly

Oly,
If you will PM me your zip code, I'll send you a list as long as your arm of FFL folks near you that will handle any of your future purchases.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:21 pm

If the dealer is willing to tie up money and space and risk by stocking a gun, and this allows you the convenience of walk-in/walk-out purchasing, and getting to 'fondle' before purchase, I think the dealer does merit a fairly hefty 'mark-up'. I don't know what's normal, but $100 might be 'reasonable'.

If the dealer is willing to order you a 'custom' firearm on demand, yet not willing or able to tie up money and space and risk by stocking it, he deserves a 'finders fee' for doing the work of finding and getting the gun for you. I don't know what's normal, but say $75 is 'reasonable'.

If the dealer is willing to allow you to do the legwork, find the gun yourself, and he only accepts the risk and cost of doing the transfer, he deserves some payment for that. Again, I don't know the business, but most around here do this for $10 to $25, and I've found a couple who do it for no charge if you're a regular customer, as sort of a 'PR' or 'loss leader' thing.

For comparison, if I spend 45 minutes with a new onset diabetic, adjust their cholesterol medication that was causing a side effect, discover they are anemic, and that they have blood in their stool, which leads to their life being saved by their colon cancer being found early, my profit on that visit may be less than $20, so I think more than that to just fill out some pretty 'rote' paperwork from another licensed retailer (or wholesaler) to customer is a bit steep.

However, as a free-market advocate and Libertarian, the 'market equilibrium' will eventually work to optimize things - although I'd probably help the process by finding a less hostile FFL to work with.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:08 pm

Gun Smith wrote:Let's look at this from both sides. We are ONLY talking about a NEW gun here. You should have made sure the dealer knew it was a new gun and not a used one. It's all the difference in the world to him. He would then have had the option of selling you the same gun, buying through his wholesaler, for an agreed price; selling the same gun to you, from his wholesaler, at your price; or refusing the deal and/or the transfer.
On the other hand HE should have asked you if it was a new gun, and made his decision then. In either case the ball got dropped by both parties.

And with that I agree. I'd asked him if FFL transfers were OK and he'd told me it was but I didn't call to ask him about this specific deal as I figured OK means "OK". I was wrong on that count, live and learn, and I think it warranted some frank talk but I don't think I deserve to get charged 260% over the going rate for an FFL transfer due to trumped up fees that did not and should not exist.

Oly

Warhawk · Post by **Warhawk** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:19 pm

I'd say that shop lost a customer over a few bucks, a very stupid thing to do.

The whole thing should have been handled with the goal of keeping you as a customer, unfortunately a lot of gun shops don't see it this way.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:23 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:Generally, I'm on the Modoc Ed and Charles side of this one. I think the dealer SHOULD have refused the transfer when he was in contact with the shipper because at that time he probably became aware of what the situation was. In that case, he did hold your firearm hostage to extract an unexpected fee from you.

Bingo. If they'd refused it and called me about it I would have said "sorry 'bout that, I won't bother you with any more of these" and done business with another dealer in Tucson who would have done this for the going rate: $25. Instead they accepted it over the phone with the out of state dealer, accepted the shipment, and then added in fees very much as an "up yours" when I came to pick it up.

Thanks,
Oly

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:31 pm

Yep, you dropped the ball. He's not supposed to inform you, you're supposed to ask questions, i.e. do you accept vintage firearms, antique firearms, handguns, shotguns, shipments from someone above the Mason-Dixon line, shipments from red states, senior citizens, etc.

I'd file a lawsuit to recover my money in Judge Judy's court.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:35 pm

Dealer is wrong here, in business you have to decide what you are going to do then make it clear to people. If you make a deal you have to keep and can't just change it. It is not your job to know his business. If there are details he needs to inform and guide the procedure.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:42 pm

Old Savage wrote:Dealer is wrong here, in business you have to decide what you are going to do then make it clear to people. If you make a deal you have to keep and can't just change it. It is not your job to know his business. If there are details he needs to inform and guide the procedure.

DING, DING, DING, DING,

We have a winner!!!

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:49 pm

Find a new dealer. Buy him a cup of coffee and get to know him.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:49 pm

I'm gonna post this (for starters) from the side of being in business....

We are electrical contractors. It used to be that you had wholesale prices and retail prices for electrical equipment. Now much of the material we use is sold at places like Menards, Home Depot and Lowes. They actually charge less than the cost to the local wholesale houses in some cases and definitely leave the contractors, the wholesale house, the hardware stores etc no room for mark up. None. It really sucks when you have to explain to customers every week why I charged him $200 for something he saw at Lowes for $125. They are competing with me and they take business from me. Lowes had a salesman stop by the shop one day wanting more of my business. I flat out explained 2 things. #1 was the same as above, that I prefer not to do business with my competition. #2, that if we gave them our business that it would hurt the local wholesale houses. Why should I care? Because those large discount house don't stock everything and dang little of a lot of stuff. Here is a scenario: The local contractors start doing business with the large discount house and they force the local house out of business. What happens when I suddenly need a 200 amp fuse, a main circuit breaker or 500' of 1" conduit? I'm hosed.

How does all this apply to your gun deal. First, if I was your local dealer I'd go to the wholesaler and demand they stop selling guns out from underneath me. I'd flat out tell them that they owe me a cut. If they didn't I'd refuse to do business with them. #2, what are you gonna do when the dealer goes out of business and you need a smith or an odd part in a timely fashion. You're hosed.

He was wrong. He told you he would charge $25 and should of stuck with it. I'm betting that at the time you didn't tell him you were going undercut him though and buy it from one of his wholesalers. Did you? He had a right to be mad but it doesn't make it right.

You were wrong because you undercut him. People whine and moan when main street closes up and then they do things like this. In your defense, you more than likely didn't realize you were under cutting him. You should of known though, fairly obvious. You think he should be happy when you buy a gun at his cost and close him out of a sale? Then you want him to do the paper work for a measly $25?

LK

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:57 pm

That pretty much sums up my position LK. You just said it a bit better.

.45 · Post by **.45** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:01 pm

Hobie wrote:I'll tell you what I think and you can, of course, choose to say bad things about me, argue or whatever.

In some states dealers are REQUIRED to collect the sales tax. I don't know about AZ, but that is true is some states. That a dealer in a state that requires it doesn't do it isn't a concern to me, but it is required in some states.

I think he did you wrong in that he told you $25 for the transfer but reneged and/or didn't fully inform you as to his rules. He should have honored the commitment. I think you did him wrong if you bought a gun he stocked or could have ordered for you. That it is a "new" gun isn't important. E.g. some dealers can't get some new guns (the recent Lipsey's .44 Spec FTs are but one example) but others can. My dealer ordered it all day long but wasn't going to get another one in. On the other hand, everyone deserves some respect. If he could have gotten the new gun for a competitive price he should have been given the opportunity.

Shipping fee? Ridiculous. You've paid your shipping fee.

As to HIS wholesaler selling direct to you, well, then his WHOLESALER did him "wrong", not you. BTW, USFA was doing this. You can/could buy direct from them and they'd ship to one of their dealers. All it cost at my end was the transfer fee and background check.

I'd say that for $65 you got a cheap lesson about his character and business practices. You might HAVE to deal with him again.

+1

cowboykell · Post by **cowboykell** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:35 pm

I would never buy a new rifle over the internet that my local dealer could get for me. That is rude and crude. Support your local gunshop.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:36 pm

L_Kilkenny wrote: He was wrong. He told you he would charge $25 and should of stuck with it. I'm betting that at the time you didn't tell him you were going undercut him though and buy it from one of his wholesalers. Did you? He had a right to be mad but it doesn't make it right.

You were wrong because you undercut him. People whine and moan when main street closes up and then they do things like this. In your defense, you more than likely didn't realize you were under cutting him. You should of known though, fairly obvious. You think he should be happy when you buy a gun at his cost and close him out of a sale? Then you want him to do the paper work for a measly $25?

That's just it LK, I didn't do that. I bought the gun RETAIL from a RETAIL shop in another state. The gun was wholesaled to them from the importer, Century Arms. Indeed I don't know how I would even buy a firearm wholesale since I'm not a dealer nor do I have a purchaser's agreement with any wholesaler but in any case I did not do that.

I understand that brick and mortar shops are hard pressed in the 21st Century and I've bought multiple new firearms from this local dealer as well as supplies every month for about a year now (I got back into guns about a year ago after several decades of working my butt off and building a family). I could have gotten all of them cheaper over the internet and sometimes I do order an item or two from Cabellas, Midway or Brownells. That said, I usually choose to do business with local shops but in the few instances where I stumble across a smoking deal advertised on the internet I think that the decision to buy is between me, that shop and God. If the standing proposition, after asking, is that FFL transfers are $25 then that's the way it should be. Period.

I appreciate your feedback however.

Thanks,
Oly

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:41 pm

Old Savage wrote:Dealer is wrong here, in business you have to decide what you are going to do then make it clear to people. If you make a deal you have to keep and can't just change it. It is not your job to know his business. If there are details he needs to inform and guide the procedure.

+1 as well. As a business person, I get "deals' pitched to me all the time. Some I accept, others I don't. BUT, if I tell ya $25, that doesn't mean $25.01, and NOTHING changes that. I understand some FFLs feel pressure and like they have to guard the castle. Some refuse to do transfers. BUT they can't have it both ways. Either stock the stuff and sell it reasonably yourself, take the risk, tie up the money, or do the TX for those who will and don't cry about it. The guy who gets a TX done today (no risk to the FFL, he gets paid for his time, just like mounting a scope belonging to a customer) HAPPILY might buy a used rifle tomorrow and you make good $$ on it.....