Blown 1892 Winchester .38WCF

[Griff]

Over on another forum, there was a topic regarding the above subject and another as to why it was pulled. Without delving into forum politics and group dynamics, I'd like to see a frank discussion of the possible causes and likely ways to avoid such future occurences from happening. Several members there are also members here and I missed what exactly a couple of them said. I think this is important enough of a subject that it shouldn't be shied away from, but rather, tackled and understood.

Here's the pics of the damaged rifle and brass:






So, whadya'll think?

[2ndovc]

Any info on ammunition?
Can you get enough of the wrong powder into a 38-40 to do that to a 92?

[JerryB]

Thank's Griff, I hope that this ain't hidden and put down. I would sure like to know what happened and I'm sure most folks with old Winchester 1892's feel the same way. Keep us up on this if you can.

[Presidio]

Thanks for the link, Griff. Hope I don't overstay muh welcome here.

General consnesus on the bullet was that it was a double bullet loaded case. MAY have been double charged, too - but that's only a guess.

Here's a link to the forum site that is currently discussing this issue: http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?sho ... try1330798

Don't know how long it'll stay up -it's already been pulled once to date for no given reason at this time.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Perhaps a powderless round was chambered and fired thus leaving the first bullet in place several inches into the barrel. Chambering and firing a followup round could probably cause the damage seen. Of course, anyone firing an original 1892 in 38-40 is more than likely an experienced "gun person" and would have naturally inspected the rifle immediately after hearing the "squib". Can you stuff enough Unique or Bullseye into a 38-40 case to get enough pressure to pop a chamber like that ... perhaps is was a very early pre-smokeless barrel and the loads were using too much modern powder? Again, anyone shooting a vintage '92 is probably savvy to this concern.

[Hobie]

It doesn't display much of the barrel obstruction indicators (bullet several inches in barrel is where barrel would have split). I am not the guy who owns the gun or loaded the ammo but it looks like a full case of Bullseye to me.

What else do we KNOW?

This won't be pulled by me and only posts which violate forum rules are. Be polite, stick to the facts and have at it. Horses are available for beating this weekend...

[Presidio]

Well, the RO says they heard the previous bullet hit steel and rules out the possibility of a stuck bullet from the previous round. Also, looking at the case - it was pointed out that there was a minimum burning inside the case near the primer hole. That would advocate reasoning of the two bullets in one case argument substantially.

Also, the detonation (lack of better words here on my part) was generally confined to the chamber and lock up of the Winchester and not in the barrel. Again, a double bullet cartridge could easily do this with the greatly increased pressures generated.

Folks, I'm taking all this from others here and trying to put it together myself. Some claim metal fatigue due to the rusting, some claim double charges, and some claim the double bullet cartridge. Hoping y'all can help solve the mystery here, but - this also has raised the concerns of safe re-loading practices and procedures. Everybody has been submitting great ideas on that subject in its' ownself.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Griff

Thanks for posting this here.

Most of the opinions over on the SASS wire are that this blow up was a result of two bullets accidentally being stuffed into a round, not a powder overcharge, and not a bullet lodged up in the bore. At least that is my opinion.

We have had several discussions about 'double balling' a round over the years over on the SASS Wire. Basically what can happen, in a progressive press, is that if enough bullet lube rubs off enough bullets into the seating/crimp die, it is possible for a for the die to pull a bullet right out of a loaded round and the bullet remains hidden up inside the die. Enough sticky lube clogging the seating/crimp die can yank a bullet right out. If the reloader is not paying enough attention, he will not notice this has happened. Then the next charged round that shows up at the seating/crimping station will get its normal bullet placed at the case mouth. When the handle is pulled, the bullet up inside the die shoves the normal bullet down inside the case, and the one that was stuck up inside the die gets seated and crimped normally. The alert reloader will notice that the handle felt different when he pulled it. He will also notice he has a bulletless round in his outfeed tray and there is powder spilled all over the place. A careless reloader will just shrug his shoulders and keep yanking the handle.

This problem has been documented several times, there was even an article in one of the gun magazines about it a few years ago. A large capacity case with a relatively light Smokeless load is a prime candidate for this to happen to. When the round is fired, the two bullets double the normal projectile weight and pressure skyrockets. This phenomenon has been demonstrated to blow up guns several times. A bullet lodged in the bore is much less likely to blow up a rifle in this fashion, the bullet is usually lodged several inches down the bore, and the barrel of a rifle with a round like 38-40 is much more likely to merely bulge, not blow up. The pressure seen in a double balled round is far higher than what the barrel sees with a stuck bullet in the barre. The pressure with a double bullet load is probably much higher than an accidental double powder charge too. This rifle blew up right at the chamber, not several inches down the bore. This leads me to believe that this was an accidental 'double ball' round.

This is not meant to be an indictment of progressive presses, as some will infer. It is a criticism of reloaders who are not aware of the possibility of a 'double ball' round and are not paying enough attention when they reload.

For what it's worth, I never just yank on the handle of my progressive presses, I always pay attention to how the machine feels. More importantly, I count out my components before each reloading session. I work with 100 primers in the primer tube and cases and bullets in multiples of 50. If I get to the end of a tube of 100 primers and I either run out of, or have bullets or cases left over, I know something is wrong and I start checking.

Just for the fun of it, here is a photo of a couple of 45 Colt rounds that I took a few years ago. These are dummy rounds with no powder in them. Each round has two bullets in it. Can you see the bullets?

[Griff]

One of the things that occurred to me after dinner last nite was... being as a .38-40 is a bottlenecked case, what would have happened if a bullet was jammed back in the case, then slightly twisted, jamming itself into the neck. That would act as an obstruction without a second projectile and if a higher than normal dosage of powder was present it would certainly exhibit such a catastrophic failure.

[Griff]

Driftwood,
This goes back well beyond SASS, but at one time there were a father & son that played CAS and used to habitually "double ball" their .44 Magnums. They were using light powder charges, and no evidence of pressure signs were ever presented, but... when they were found out, they were BANNED from competition in both ranges that held matches at that time. It is a dangerous practice when done deliberately, and if done accidentally with what would be a normal powder charge it can be extremely dangerous. The '92 is a strong action, but we all know the steels of older Winchesters is not what's used today...

I wonder what the age of the piece is, and just what the load was.

[El Chivo]

the way that cartridge case is torn at the base rather than at the mouth is convincing for the two bullet theory.

If you look at the .45 dummy with two bullets, there wouldn't be anywhere else for the pressure to go but sideways.

At the range Saturday a very experienced shooter fired off a double charge in his Contender. He was in the lane next to me, fortunately I finished my match before he got to his hot load.

He got away with only a scope tattoo on his forehead. The gunsmith there looked at the cartridge and said pressure was about 120,000.

This guy uses a progressive press also.

[Mike Hunter]

Can't say I’ve seen that kind or damage on a 92 before. Have seen several 1876s and 1886s that have blown both the barrel and the frame. All were due to over charge (double and triple) of smokeless. My guess is that this was an overcharge of a really hot powder like Bullseye.

I doubt it was metal fatigue, that’s quite a bit of metal that was moved, not sure a standard 38 WCF ctg could do that.

Double bullets? Don’t know, I would have expected the barrel to bulge, blow off the head of the case, but not completely blow apart both the barrel & frame.

Hope we find out

Mike Hunter

[Griff]

Presidio,
I don't see how you'd "overstay your welcome", Welcome to THE Forum. I seem to recall we "agreed to disagree", don't remember the subject, but do remember I respected your opinion and would welcome your input on any subject.

[Mike D.]

I tend to agree with Mike Hunter on this situation. I have never used a progressive press, but do have a lot of experience in loading the .38 and .44 WCF cartridges. I can see the horrific results of a 18-20 grain charge of Bullseye powder in that short case. The load, topped off by a 180 grain bullet would be severely compressed and cause a tremendous pressure spike when ignited. For grins, I just put 18 grains of Bullseye into a .44 WCF case and crammed a bullet down on top of it. It worked, but I shudder to think what would happen to a gun if such a round was fired. The 1892 Winchester is a very stout action, but it's doubtful that it would survive the aforementioned load.

[Presidio]

Presidio,
I don't see how you'd "overstay your welcome", Welcome to THE Forum. I seem to recall we "agreed to disagree", don't remember the subject, but do remember I respected your opinion and would welcome your input on any subject.

Thanky kindly fer the warm welcome there, Griff. Can't say I remembers our little debate either - but it's always a pleasure ta' banter back and forth with ya'. .Especially if I ever finally manages ta' get yer goat. Sometimes we're on opposite sides of the stream, but most times we tend ta' agree on the subjects at hand. Hoping one day ta' meet up, have some coffee, and enjoy a shoot with ya'!

[Grizzly Adams]

One of the things that occurred to me after dinner last nite was... being as a .38-40 is a bottlenecked case, what would have happened if a bullet was jammed back in the case, then slightly twisted, jamming itself into the neck. That would act as an obstruction without a second projectile and if a higher than normal dosage of powder was present it would certainly exhibit such a catastrophic failure.

Could be a double bullet, or just the result of the bullet slipping the crimp, and being shoved down in the case. In either instance, the 38-40 makes missing it an easy miss. Those who reload the 38-40 know that reloaded 38-40 rounds differ a bit from factory loads. Winchester factory 38WCF rounds are a pronounce bottle neck, with a cannelure at the base of the bullet. Here is a pic to show the comparison. Factory round is on the right. Note cannelure at the base of the bullet.



That cannelure is put there by Winchester to prevent the bullet slipping the crimp. (It was unneseccary when BP what the propellant of choice!) Once fired and resized that bottle neck is reduced to more of a taper. As a result, the bullet is not fully supported the full length of the neck. In addition, when loaded with smokeless powder, it is possible for the bullet to jump the crimp. (That's why I always us a Lee FC die when loading the 38WCF with smokeless powder.) I learned this first hand, but fortunately I caught it before I closed the action. I was hunting bunnies - A CAS shooter would not have a chance!

Obviously, in the case of a double bullet in the case, it would easily go unnoticed in the 38WCF. There would be no slight bulge as you see in DJs pic of the 45LC.

It's the little stuff that gets ya! Glad nobody was seriously injured.

[w30wcf]

Several possibilities. Most likely a double charge of fast burning pistol powder + a non nickel steel barrel.

Non nickel steel barrel - max pressure rating 28,000 psi
Double charge of a fast burning pistol powder = 50,000+ psi
= barrel failure

Hopefully no one was hurt.

w30wcf

[Presidio]

Fortunately, no one was hurt - thank goodness for that . But, I can only imagine the shooters face when they were standing there holding a piece of their rifle in each hand, tho.

Kinda did some blowups of the split case in question here :



I know its' not the best quality here abouts - but I noticed that the walls aren't "bulged" like you would see with a double bullet in a .45 case. I also noticed that the burn marks are also at the edge of the opening, as well - instead of just at the base near the primer hole.

My question is, would these observations be consistent with a "double-bullet" or just an over-charge of powder? If it was a double bullet and the first bullet just slipped by the crimp ahead of the second bullet - wouldn't it just be loose in the case and might've keyholed in the chamber when fired and caused the excessive build of pressure resulting in the damage?

Lot's of questions and food for thought - and all pure speculation on my part, tho.

[Pop Watts]

Just one more thought to put into the mix - who knows anything about "secondary explosive effect"?

In theory it can be caused in cartridges loaded with light charges of smokeless powder. The primer flash does not ignite the powder column instantly because it is lying on the bottom of the case. The primer flash however has enough force to move the projectile foward into the lands of the barrel and then it jams there. Now the powder column burns in an increased space caused by the foward movement of the projectile - which is now stationary and jammed into the lands of the barrel. The result is an explosion rather than ignition of the powder and pressures can reach extreme peaks. All of this happens in an instant of time.

I would like to put this theory up for discussion.

There is reason to be cautious about using too light a smokeless powder load in these old black powder cartridges and many reloaders will use wadding to keep the small powder column pushed against the primer flash hole to get consistent ignition.

I have over 20 old 1892's and shoot them regually - but those photo's scared me.

Just my thoughts.

Pop

[adirondakjack]

Presidio, if you look at the brass at a little less magnification, you can see the gray area near the case mouth appears to be lead smear, it's just shiney gray, almost like somebody dipped it in molton lead, whereas the scorch down in the bottom is definitely a burn mark.

I'm still convinced it was a double balled case (as was Steve Young)

A double balled BOTTLENECK, low pressure case like .38-40 would be a serious bomb when the candle was lit. The charge, probably compressed, would instantaneously ramp pressures waaay out of sight. The bottom bullet would obdurate to fit the chamber BEHIND THE BOTTLENECK, effectively creating a solid obstruction larger than the chamber throat (like a cork stoppering a bottle from the inside) for a few microseconds, as the powder's progressive burn went totally postal because the bullet didnt' move the heck out of the way, until at some point, as the chamber bulged, that obdurated fat bullet, and the one in front of it, finally squirt forth, perhaps mostly as lead or vaper, when the chamber vented to the side. In other words, because the chamber is tapered, the resultant "plug" may have been so tight that the bullets simply vaporized as all he77 broke loose.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

As bad as it looks, it's kind of nice to see the bolt still where it's supposed to be.

[Lefty Dude]

DJ & I both reload 44-40 for CAS Sport & hobby. We are both aware of the Double bullet drop. As stated this can happen in the bullet seating stage and usually can be traced to a dirty seater die that is full of stuck lube. I reload my 44-40's on a Dillon SDB and am always conscious that this could happen. I clean my dies every 500 rounds or, as I change from on caliber to the next. I also keep the loaded rounds in there hoppers till I am thru with the loading session. If I find powder in the hopper with a empty primed case and no bullet this would be an indicator of the two-ball drop. My hopper bins hold 100 rounds, I would then weigh each completed round to verify it has only one bullet.

There was an article in Shoot Magazine several years ago, regarding this very subject. I believe it was a 45LC. He and his reloading partner blew-up two Colt SAA 45's.

I was visting my Brother last year and we were in his gun room. On his bench is a Dillon 550. In the course of our conversation I ask if he ever cleaned his reloading dies. His come back was, they never get dirty. Well at this point I pulled the hitch pin on the seater Dillon 45LC die. And in the top of the die a 45 lead bullet was jamed with lots of lube holding it in place. He was speechless needless to say. He was also very lucky.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

There's little doubt to me that it was a double ball over a fast pistol powder. I think if it was an over charge the bullet would have moved enough for a bulge or even a rupture up the barrel more. The forward part of the chamber may have suffer a bulge but to blow the barrel and the frame bridge there at the back like that just tells me that the two bullets didn't move and because of the greatly reduced case volume with two bullets the pressure spiked really fast. I've seen a few 92's that where shot with accidental double charges and most contain the pressure with only barrel damage or no damage at all. Never this kind of damage to the receiver. As for as the age of the gun, it is true, the earlier 1900's 92's were suspect, but I've seen too many of the converted to 44mag and 357m to be overly concerned.

[Presidio]

Presidio, if you look at the brass at a little less magnification, you can see the gray area near the case mouth appears to be lead smear, it's just shiney gray, almost like somebody dipped it in molton lead, whereas the scorch down in the bottom is definitely a burn mark.
I'm still convinced it was a double balled case (as was Steve Young)

A double balled BOTTLENECK, low pressure case like .38-40 would be a serious bomb when the candle was lit. The charge, probably compressed, would instantaneously ramp pressures waaay out of sight. The bottom bullet would obdurate to fit the chamber BEHIND THE BOTTLENECK, effectively creating a solid obstruction larger than the chamber throat (like a cork stoppering a bottle from the inside) for a few microseconds, as the powder's progressive burn went totally postal because the bullet didnt' move the heck out of the way, until at some point, as the chamber bulged, that obdurated fat bullet, and the one in front of it, finally squirt forth, perhaps mostly as lead or vaper, when the chamber vented to the side. In other words, because the chamber is tapered, the resultant "plug" may have been so tight that the bullets simply vaporized as all he77 broke loose.

Thanks, AJ - knew I was missing something there. I sure weren't arguing the point - jest being curious. And, heck yeah! I even done went and cleaned my dies on my single stage turret press. If for no other reason than this - it was in need of it anyhow......

And thanks, Nate! That helps really explain alot of how things work for me. But, I ain't that sure this is one of those older guns. Just looking at that well blued bolt kinda inclines me to think that the rest of the rifle is one of them "home antiquing" jobs instead. But - I been wrong before, too!

[El Chivo]

Pop, I read about that secondary detonation and it supposedly happens with slow powders, because they are harder to light. Fast powders ignite immediately so there would be no delay to let a bullet get stuck before going off, and no unburnt pockets. That's why they say not to load down slow powders.

That "cork" description really helps me understand what happened, it didn't occur to me that the lower bullet would obturate and block the chamber. I thought the pressure happened just from the extra weight, but, man, I can see the problem there.

[Ysabel Kid]

That is just a shame. Glad the shooter was okay...

[RangerClay]

Hi Guys,

New guy here. I was the range officer in the incident pictured. I was about 2 feet from the gun when it went off. VERY SCARY. The explosion knocked me backwards onto my poop deck. It's a wonder no one was hurt.

You are giving me some great in-sight into what could have gone wrong. Thanks!

[w30wcf]

Guys,
Based on the collective experience here, it most likely was either a double charge of a fast burning powder or 2 bullets insde the case.

Regarding the possibility that an increased powder charge did the mischief, unfortunately "Sixguns" .45-90 (non nickel steel barrel)blew up in a similar manner with a single slug and 5744 powder In addition, P.O. Ackley shows a picture in his book(s) of a blown '94 .30-30 that reportedly had a double charge of Unique.

w30wcf

[Griff]

Ranger Clay, welcome to the forum.

DJ, NJKJ, Lefty, & AJ; thanks to you all for your discussion and expertise. I feel we do a dissevice to ourselves and other reloaders when "ostrich" over issues such as this.

Reloadin' is a serious undertaking and ones attention should remain on the task @ hand.

[Mike Hunter]

Range Clay

Thanks for joining the forum. As you can see there is a lot of interest here as to this 92.

Do you know if the owner is planning on having a "forensic" investigation done on the 92?

Would really like to hear the outcome. Also did you take note of the SN of the rifle?

Mike Hunter
www.hunterrestorations.com

[Mike Hunter]

Ranger Clay

Sent you a PM

Mike Hunter

[Old Ironsights]

Won't comment on the "whys" - 'cause I'm not that edjumakated on them things.

But the rust on that carcass is a dang shame.

I'm not too supprised somthing bad happent to it as a result of neglectful reloading (weigh your cartridges!) ... as there seems to be a good bit of neglect in other areas...

[RangerClay]

Ranger Clay

Sent you a PM

Mike Hunter

PM returned.

Thanks for the welcome everyone. I only wish it wasn't this accident that brought me here. I've been a lever gun maniac since I was kid and I really like this place.

One thing I would like add to this story that I have recently learned is that the shooter was using leftover hunting loads (very much against SASS rules). So I (in my novice opinion) am going to assume that this 38-40 probably had a double or triple charge of some very hot powder. No one will ever know and I hope I never have this happens on my watch again.

[KirkD]

I'm going with a double charge of Unique.

I shoot nothing but old Winchesters, including a 1892 in 38 WCF. I prefer to use a slow enough powder such that a double charge simply cannot fit in the case. 2400 is the fastest powder I use in the old Winnies, except for Unique in my Winchester Model 53 25-20.

[Kansas Ed]

To add one more thing to the mix: I load for 3 different 38-40's and have loaded this little engine that could for years. Recently I tried to reform some Remington 44-40 brass for my 38's. No matter what I did, my dies refused to put a decent crimp on them. The brass was just too thin for the Lee dies. Yes, I also tried the FCD die on them, but under magazine pressure they still pushed the bullets into the case. If they were reforming brass, this might have been one piece of the puzzle.

Ed

[Paladin]

Just one more thought to put into the mix - who knows anything about "secondary explosive effect"?

In theory it can be caused in cartridges loaded with light charges of smokeless powder. The primer flash does not ignite the powder column instantly because it is lying on the bottom of the case. The primer flash however has enough force to move the projectile foward into the lands of the barrel and then it jams there. Now the powder column burns in an increased space caused by the foward movement of the projectile - which is now stationary and jammed into the lands of the barrel. The result is an explosion rather than ignition of the powder and pressures can reach extreme peaks. All of this happens in an instant of time.

I would like to put this theory up for discussion.

There is reason to be cautious about using too light a smokeless powder load in these old black powder cartridges and many reloaders will use wadding to keep the small powder column pushed against the primer flash hole to get consistent ignition.

I have over 20 old 1892's and shoot them regually - but those photo's scared me.

Just my thoughts.

Pop

A small charge of smokeless powder resulting in explosive detonation is a reoccurring problem. I teach advanced explosives to some military members and curtain types of smokeless powders can be used as high explosive under the correct circumstances. One of the reasons I don’t load light charges in my toys.

[Old Time Hunter]

Guys, very interesting to say the least and of course it is great that there wasn't any physical harm.

Currently I'm in Pop's, Sobenk's and Paladin's camp with at least one foot, but touch'n a toe in Kirk's position also. Then again, we had a kid in camp a couple of years ago that brought is great grandads '92 chambered for 38WCF with a pile of hand loads his pa gave him. As we were knock'n over frying pans at about 40 yards, out of the corner of my eye I noticed the kid chambered a round with a little hitch in is lever swing. I yelled STOP!!!, fortunately he did not pull the trigger. It took just slightly more pressure than normal to cycle the lever to eject, but upon investigation...his pa had loaded a .427 pill in a .38-40 case and when chambering the lever had enough force to push the bullet back into the case and chamber reform the case to where it chambered. Shutter to think what would have happened if he'd pull the trigger. I can see the bullet jamming in the neck of the cartridge and the pressure having no where to go but out. Out of 200 rounds the kid brought, we found seven with the wrong bullets. Found out later his pa was load'n his 44WCF's the day before he loaded his kids 38WCF's and must have accidently left some of the .427's in the hopper!

[J Miller]

Out of 200 rounds the kid brought, we found seven with the wrong bullets. Found out later his pa was load'n his 44WCF's the day before he loaded his kids 38WCF's and must have accidently left some of the .427's in the hopper!

Ummmm, maybe he had it in for the kid?????


Joe

[TNBigBore]

Seeing those photos has me a little concerned. I have a first year 1892 38WCF and have been shooting 180 grain jacketed bullets over 10 grains of Unique for my hunting load. It makes a noticeably bigger boom, but I thought this was a safe load even with the older steel of my barrel. Am I off base here?

[KirkD]

Seeing those photos has me a little concerned. I have a first year 1892 38WCF and have been shooting 180 grain jacketed bullets over 10 grains of Unique for my hunting load. It makes a noticeably bigger boom, but I thought this was a safe load even with the older steel of my barrel. Am I off base here?

In this case, I doubt it was Unique by itself ..... I'm going with a double charge of Unique. That being said, I know that a lot of shooters use Unique, and it is probably perfectly safe, although much easier to have a double charge than a slower powder that fills the case. For cartridges that were originally black powder, I never use a powder faster than 2400. In general, the faster the powder, the sharper the pressure spike for the same velocity. Blue Dot gives approximately the same pressure curve as FFFg and 2400 gives about the same pressure curve as FFg. Powders slower than 2400 actually give lower pressure curves than black powder for the same velocity (contrary to urban myth) and powders faster than 2400 give higher pressure curves. The faster the powder, the sharper the spike. Here is an example of some pressure curves that illustrate the point ....

[Paladin]

I just found this and thought I would share.
You should never drop to far below 80% load density.
A known condition named detonation (excess pressure spike) can occur with cases that are not signifacantly filled with powder. Some years ago the U.S. Ordnance and DuPont ballistics laboratories were able to duplicate the strange phenomenon called detonation and they had determined that excess air space in the cartridge case to be the trigger for detonation.

How to figure load density.
Powder charge weight divided by case capacity equals load density.
Example: Powder charge 40 grains (divided by) Case capacity 50 grains = .8 or 80% load density.

[Mutt]

Shore Nuff' ruined a fine rifle. Hope the person and those around them weren't hurt none. Hate to see a gun like that.Just think of all the skill , labor and the keeping up the rifle all those years. Nuff said , getting mad now. Doggone it !!!!.................................Mutt