OT - AR-15 can do it all...

[Old Time Hunter]

It's a personal thing...every experience I've had with an AR type weapon has been fatally negative, so I am very prejudiced against them. To get past that chip on my shoulder, you would have to turn back time thirty six years and reissue Pete at least an AK so he could have at least had an equal chance. Thank God I had a confiscated M-14 and held 'em off in my sector. To this day I believe if Pete had even a Trapper he would have had a better chance than that piece of s*** AR that malfuntioned after every three rounds in a torrential downpour.

[Travis Morgan]

Pete?

[buckeyeshooter]

You have got to be kidding me! You are recommending a plastic pop gun in a varmit caliber to a handgun caliber as a do it all. This guns a joke and the rounds it shoots are not suitable for big game. Give me a Winchester!

[O.S.O.K.]

You have got to be kidding me! You are recommending a plastic pop gun in a varmit caliber to a handgun caliber as a do it all. This guns a joke and the rounds it shoots are not suitable for big game. Give me a Winchester!

I realize the thread is now three pages but if you read up a bit and especially the initial post, you'll see that I wasn't "recommending" anything. Further, the point is the AR is available in a full range of calibers. Is .308 Win good with you?

And as far as the performance early in VN, that has been resolved I beleive - chrome lined chambers and barrels and a field cleaning kit.

Sorry about Pete - I blame Kennedy and MacNamara for the problems with the AR early in VN - Mac was the "genious" that sent them over sans chrome and kit.

[buckeyeshooter]

For me .308 winchester is a good place to start. But a 308 version is an AR-10 not an AR-15. Not what you were suggesting.

[O.S.O.K.]

For me .308 winchester is a good place to start. But a 308 version is an AR-10 not an AR-15. Not what you were suggesting.

Semantics. I meant "AR platform" or "AR type rifles".

And of course, you can move up to the bigger boys chambered in AR-XX rifles. I imagine that you can get 338 Federal and the like.

[coyote nose]

Hang in there O.S.O.K., your observations about the AR being the modern generations 94 is right on and very astute. Never thought about it that way, but once I digested and thought about it, you are so right.

[Jaguarundi]

It's a personal thing...every experience I've had with an AR type weapon has been fatally negative, so I am very prejudiced against them. To get past that chip on my shoulder, you would have to turn back time thirty six years and reissue Pete at least an AK so he could have at least had an equal chance. Thank God I had a confiscated M-14 and held 'em off in my sector. To this day I believe if Pete had even a Trapper he would have had a better chance than that piece of s*** AR that malfuntioned after every three rounds in a torrential downpour.

AMEN BRO!Swell and made by Matel !

[Mike Hunter]

22 years in the service, 10 years in US Army Special Forces (Green Berets)…. In my inexperienced and uninformed opinion… the M16/AR15 series rifle is a piece of junk.

How many changes have been made to the design to get it to operate sort of reliably???
Change powder, change buffer spring, change bullet, change twist, chrome line this, chrome line that,....it has a forward assist not for if you get a jam …but when you do…

You do realize that there have been over 160 MWOs for the M16

In every conflict the rifle has been used, there have been two serious complaints….1). the rifle is not reliable 2) the rifle lacks penetration and knock down power, besides that it’s a great rifle.

Last word I got, all the M14s have been shipped from AAD to theater… gee wonder why if the M16A2/M4 is so great.

Want an accurate rifle that shoots a real bullet, get an M1A, want a very accurate rifle??? Put a scope on that M1A

[jeepnik]

It's a personal thing...every experience I've had with an AR type weapon has been fatally negative, so I am very prejudiced against them. To get past that chip on my shoulder, you would have to turn back time thirty six years and reissue Pete at least an AK so he could have at least had an equal chance. Thank God I had a confiscated M-14 and held 'em off in my sector. To this day I believe if Pete had even a Trapper he would have had a better chance than that piece of s*** AR that malfuntioned after every three rounds in a torrential downpour.

Amen.

[O.S.O.K.]

Again, I stress, I am not saying the AR is the best rifle for our troops, or anything like that. Just that its a very versitile weapon platform. OK? Probably the most versitile general type at this time - especially given it's modular design.

As to what I personally think our troops should be issued? I'd say something like a modern AK operating system chambered in 6.5 SPC. Should include a good choice of optics too. In general.

If I were to go into harm's way, that's what I'd want.

ETA - I'd think that if the powers that be would just do an overhaul with piston driver conversions and 6.8 SCP Barrels that we'd be miles ahead...

I'm certainly no expert in the matter - just seems like common sense given the available experience and feedback of those like Mike Hunter - which I've read over and over on varous gun boards.

But that is OT to the subject of the original post.

[Old Ironsights]

Almost anything that isn't gas operated would be a boon.

Gast Piston is better than impingement, but I'm looking forward to a Benelli-style inertia system in an MBR... since nobody will make me a detatchable 30rd box fed levergun.

[jeepnik]

Again, I stress, I am not saying the AR is the best rifle for our troops, or anything like that. Just that its a very versitile weapon platform. OK? Probably the most versitile general type at this time - especially given it's modular design.

As to what I personally think our troops should be issued? I'd say something like a modern AK operating system chambered in 6.5 SPC. Should include a good choice of optics too. In general.

If I were to go into harm's way, that's what I'd want.

ETA - I'd think that if the powers that be would just do an overhaul with piston driver conversions and 6.8 SCP Barrels that we'd be miles ahead...

I'm certainly no expert in the matter - just seems like common sense given the available experience and feedback of those like Mike Hunter - which I've read over and over on varous gun boards.

But that is OT to the subject of the original post.

It doesn't matter what you chamber it for, or what modifications you make. It is a poor design, even more poorly executed. Warriors (the guys in the mud then, and now in the sand, not the ones in Washington) have complained since it was first issued. Heck they are reissuing M-14's, for pete sake. This is the exact same thing that happened with the Army went from the .45 Colt to the .38 Colt. Took a few years, and too many lives, and the idiots in procurement finally figured it out and went to the .45 acp.(don't get me started on the 9mm). What they should do is get off their hindquarters and develop a 7.62 round (gee the 7.62X39 comes to mind) in a slightly scaled down M-14 action. It will be light enough to carry, have sufficient power to penetrate cover and still put down the enemy, and if done correctly be accurate as all get out. Won't happen though. Too many politicians and procurement types are getting too much money to take care of the lowly little soldier. After all, they are "easy" to replace

[O.S.O.K.]

no argument here - perhaps you would like to start a new thread about the best rifle/chambering for our military.

You can rant and rave and hate the AR all you want but you can't deny that it's the most popular rifle in the counrty right now and the most versitile in it's many chamberings and iterations.

Further, I like the ones I have. I've never had to rely on them to save my hindquarters though and I've never seen my buddy whacked while trying to unjam his issue rifle. I can see how that would cause one to hate the design.

If the proverbial merde hits the fan, then I'm grabbing my AK's - I've got four caliber choices and plenty of ammo and mags for each.

I don't blame the design for anything - its the so-called leadership that's stuck our guys with this rifle.

But once again, that's not what the thread is about is it?

No.

[Travis Morgan]

You do realize that there have been over 160 MWOs for the M16

WTF is an MWO?

In every conflict the rifle has been used, there have been two serious complaints….1). the rifle is not reliable 2) the rifle lacks penetration and knock down power, besides that it’s a great rifle.

That's what I consider darned serious flaws. If I need a weapon that kills reliably to survive, reliability, accuracy, and knockdown power are first and foremost. Lightweight means nothing. I can adjust to carrying a heavier rifle.

Last word I got, all the M14s have been shipped from AAD to theater… gee wonder why if the M16A2/M4 is so great.

In the July '08 issue of esquire, they have a picture of a sniper company, and all the weapons pictured are of AR or M-1 types.

[O.S.O.K.]

MWO = modification work order, and sometimes mine wire obstruction (old)

He was saying that the m-16 has been modified or changed that many times in an attempt to fix it.

While I don't disagree that we need and should have had a better MBR a long time ago, I would submit that the simple fact that the MWO's were issued and performed doesn't in an of itself equate to a poor weapon. Look at Britain and the SMLE - it too underwent a large number of mods during its long service life.

But, I agree that we need a much better weapon. No doubt whatsoever.

And I also agree that if the frippin congressmen were the ones going into harm's way, that this would have been taken care of many years ago. Like in the 60's.

But - again, this thread is diverted to this "other" topic....

[Mike Hunter]

An MWO is a Modification Work Order... military jargon for a change. The Change could be anything from the change in lube oil and cleaning procedures to redesigning major components. The M16 series has had more that any other rifle that I know of…mostly trying get the thing to work reliably.

And just some quick pieces of worthless trivia…

in one year they changed the lubricating oil for the M16 5 times…

The original acceptance standard for accuracy from the M16 was 12 MOA. So clamped in a vice, if the M16 hit a 12 inch plate at 100 yds it was considered acceptable.

The 5.56 (.223) is a varmint cartridge… its designed for ground hogs, prairie dogs etc.. It is not a medium or big game cartridge… and in many places its illegal to use for deer… yet some brain child decided it was good for a MBR.

In my mind the M16/AR15 has one serious design flaw…. “Puking in its own mouth”. Why would you discharge the gas tube (hot gasses, carbon, fowling, debris etc) back into the chamber area? This is one area that would really benefit from being clean. Kinda like discharging your sewer into the operating room…generally not something you would purposely do.

Good friend of mine, a VN vet, would tell me how the NVA/VC really liked US made M2 HMG, M60s, M1s, M14s and even the M1/M2 carbines but would booby trap M16s or just let them lay in the fields.

The AR15 is a fun little rifle, all kinds of modifications, accessories can be added.
The ability to remove the top half from the bottom so you can swap out barrels makes changing barrels/ top halves real quick and easy… so I can see how many would call that versatile.

To me versatile is that I can grab one rifle to do many purposes… as is. My M1A Scout fits that definition quite nicely, take care of a raccoon or coyote problem.. Take a deer; home defense… the only change is magazine capacity and possibly a scope.

The 1894 was an extremely versatile rifle, possibly one reason that it was produced for over 100 years, (how many millions produced? ) and reliable… oh yes, pick up a 100 year old 1894, I’d be surprised if it didn’t work.

[Old Ironsights]

....In my mind the M16/AR15 has one serious design flaw…. “Puking in its own mouth”. Why would you discharge the gas tube (hot gasses, carbon, fowling, debris etc) back into the chamber area? This is one area that would really benefit from being clean. Kinda like discharging your sewer into the operating room…generally not something you would purposely do.....

+ several thousand....

Have you seen some of the new Gas Piston mods? They really help, and some can be had for less than $500... AND work fine for select fire.

But like I said - I want a mechanical MBR or an inertia-driven system.

Mmmmmm a .308 Benelli Supernova... Mmmmmmm

[scr83jp]

I'm an olphart I'll take a Garand to a tonka toy.

[buckeyeshooter]

This fella is selling hard! I am not a believer and no amount of 'stuff' said will make me one. This 'platform' is marginal in the woods and in the millitary as far as I am concerned.

[jeepnik]

There seem to be two very different opinions on the AR platform. One either seems to love it or hate it. I wonder what the age/combat experience of the lovers as opposed to haters is? Me, I hate it. I'm an old fanny burp/Viet Nam vet. Anyone else like to fess up?

[piller]

I am seriously thinking of getting an AR type, maybe in both 5.56 Nato and 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. If Ruger would make the Mini-14 to accept aftermarket mags, the new improved and more accurate Mini-14 would be great for M.O.U.T. or the civilian equivalent. I have a Mini-30 and other than the inability to find an aftermarket magazine I can use without digging out the wire welder and filling, then re-drilling the hole, it is as reliable as my Puma or my wife's 336C. It just doesn't understand the concept of "quit". I prefer the gas piston to the hot gasses themselves moving the bolt. I learned to be the most accurate in my Battalion on the M60 just to avoid the M16A1. My M60 never once failed me, but I also borrowed LSA from the 11C's when it got hot enough to cook the BreakFree dry. LSA was a better way of keeping the M60 running like an Indy Car's engine. Wrapping up these random seeming thoughts is a request that some company make an affordable rifle using the gas piston, which can change barrels and magazines for the possibility that we may need one reliable semi-auto which can do it all. Maybe 5.56 for the varmints and something larger for the things like deer or, Heaven Forbid, Human predators.

Even though I am thinking of getting one, I still hate it. I am 43 years old.

[O.S.O.K.]

This fella is selling hard! I am not a believer and no amount of 'stuff' said will make me one. This 'platform' is marginal in the woods and in the millitary as far as I am concerned.

To quote one of my favorite Presidents: "There you go again"

The only thing that I'm "selling" is that the AR is a versitile rifle - probably the most versitile right now.

You guys that hate AR's are really single minded in your hatred - so much so that you seem to take any mention of the rifle and figure that the author is touting them as the greatest thing since sliced bread - and then go on the "attack".

Get off of it will you?

If you want to argue that they aren't versitile, then have at it - that's the thread topic.

Or if you want to start a "why I hate the AR" then have at that - but quit trying to turn this thread into your favorite subject (aparently).

And piller - I agree, a piston driven AR is a big improvement over the standard system. But I have to say, I've never had my AR's totally stop running on me - that's not to say there haven't been stovepipes and even had some soft brass PMP stick in the chamber a couple of times and fail to extract - but a cleaning rod popped em out. But at the range, nobody is shooting back at me. I've already stated my preference for AK's if I need absolute reliability.

Piller - I'm guessing that the reason that you are attracted is that there are cheap mags, a bazillion aftermarket do dads and replacement parts available and all kinds of loadings for the .223. Even Walmart carries multiple types of .223.

This makes the AR-15 even more versitile without even considering all of the other chamberings.

[Old Time Hunter]

The only thing I'll give ya, is that it is a versatile toy. As a weapon though, it has to be reliable to trusting it with your life before you can worry whether or not it is versatile. Heck, I would rate the old M2A as being more versatile...oh yea, forgot....didn't that have a gas operating piston driving the action? As far as the ability to add dodads, that in my mind just adds clutter and gives my the impression of something a kid might like, something like one of them transformer toys.

As far as my prejudice against them, as I said in my previous post, I have a first hand experience as to their fatal versatility. They (AR's) have more ways to get person killed than any front line military weapon since the French Chauchat LMG.

By the way, I'm in my mid 50's and was with some of the last to go over to VN in the early '70's.

[Old Ironsights]

... I learned to be the most accurate in my Battalion on the M60 just to avoid the M16A1. ....

Heh.

When I was ground pounding (vs my later stint on Tracks) this skinny dude was the 60 gunner for that and one other interesting reason... It was heavy enough to properly ballance my Ruck so I could take all the weight on my legs and not my back.

Shocked the "used MREs" out of my platoon once when I single-fired my 60 from the shoulder like a (heavy) deer rifle and hit a 300m target on the first try.

[Mike Hunter]

I think you confusing versatile with being able to accessorize. There are tons of accessories for the M16/AR15 platform; my guess is that it’s the coolness factor. The military uses it….. Well then it must be good..or at least cool. You have a lot of wanna be’s … but that guy getting shot at…. There is never enough dirt between you and the bad guy… and you gun is never big enough, heck bout that time a 20mm Vulcan is barely acceptable.

I know the AR platform can be converted to all sorts of configurations in minutes, cal changes, flat top, “sniper “configuration etc. So in that sense it is versatile.

I kinda see versatility differently though; as stated earlier, my rifle of choice is an M1A Scout, normally loaded with a 20 round mag of military surplus 7.62 ball.

If I have a raccoon or Coyote problem, I grab the M1A and take care of problem, and yes that is something an AR in .223 can easily handle.

Now if I wake up some morning (during deer season of course) and see a nice 8 point 200 yds off my deck, again same M1A (with 5 round mag), and deer is down. The AR in .223 I would consider marginal.

Some 2-300 lb feral hogs tearing up one of my pastures ? M1A + Mil Surp Ball = Dead hogs.
Don’t think I would even attempt that with a .223.
Can’t get close enough to use iron sights… scope with QD mounts, same rifle, same ammo, dead hogs at 500 M .

Next door neighbor’s 1000 lb bull rips thru my fence for the 5th time and is trying to gore my horses; ideally would like to have a .50 or at least a 12 gauge with slugs… but again the same M1A with the same mill surplus ball ammo is up to the task. …. Now if I’ve got to find my $500 AR upper in .50 Beowulf and the $2.00 each cartridges…I may have just lost a horse.

An M1A National match, with a few $$ worth of tweaking, can be used for all the above and you can still take it to Camp Perry and compete…With only one rifle.

So as you can see I see versatility as the same gun, same chambering able to handle a variety or tasks…not the amount of changes I can make to it.

[buckeyeshooter]

Last time I looked this forum was called "Leverguns". I am just as entitled to an opinion as you. Maybe more-so cause I had to carry one of the platforms you love. If you want 'nice' replys to your 'stuff' go play at the AR Forum.

[Travis Morgan]

The only thing that I'm "selling" is that the AR is a versitile rifle - probably the most versitile right now.

Never before has one rifle sucked in so many different calibers.

[O.S.O.K.]

I guess ya'll can't make an argument based on the thread topic so you just add your own parameters - go ahead.

Like "I can say what ever I want" - true enough - especially if you're bent on a particular point of view regardless of what the thread topic is.

Boy, I thought this kinda "sht" was confined to arfcom. I guess not...

[jeepnik]

I think you confusing versatile with being able to accessorize. There are tons of accessories for the M16/AR15 platform; my guess is that it’s the coolness factor. The military uses it….. Well then it must be good..or at least cool. You have a lot of wanna be’s … but that guy getting shot at…. There is never enough dirt between you and the bad guy… and you gun is never big enough, heck bout that time a 20mm Vulcan is barely acceptable.

Well the Vulcan may seem barely acceptable, but when you hear the sound of a Phantom coming in low, and then the roar of that nose gun, it's a beautiful thing to behold. Snake and Nape are wonderful friends, too.

[Travis Morgan]

A good friend of mine, who is "in the know" on such things, said he's seen plenty of the Vulcans in .50 BMG blow up. He advised me not to bother with one I coulda had for under a grand. (and no, he didn't want the guy's number)

[TomD]

We dumped the FN-FAL in 308 for something in the M16 vain. I wonder how happy they are about that in the open spaces of Afghanistan. On the other hand, for all this roaring around in "armoured" vehicles, and searching houses, something small probably fits the bill, it depends on what the mission is I guess.

[Slick]

hes' right..the AR plaform can do it all.

Cool - I just blew the last of my "stimulus" check on a pair of AR-15 lower receivers... I'll build one for making holes in paper and the other in whichever emerges as the "winner" in the .450+ caliber category. I never liked the AR's gas impingment operation - but I've already got one of everything else (and what was left won't buy a Winny 71), so I guess it's time to try out an AR?

[Jaguarundi]

The only thing that I'm "selling" is that the AR is a versitile rifle - probably the most versitile right now.

Never before has one rifle sucked in so many different calibers.

+1 Travis !

[Blackhawk]

I skipped from page 2 to the last page so if this has been covered just ignore it. But yall bringing up the fact that the AR can't handle blackpowder, IMHO, is like saying the '94 is the ultimate sniper weapon at 1000yds. Its isolated cases for both weapon systems. Both can do it but the amount of times is going to be very low w/o some sort of adjustments.

Can the AR do it all? Yes, but so can the leveractions, bolts, and other semiautos out today. Just pick your platform. Me, I have love for all of them but if it came to bad times and I only had the one of the two (M4 vs '94) I'd rather carry a M4 over a '94.

[Old Ironsights]

I skipped from page 2 to the last page so if this has been covered just ignore it. But yall bringing up the fact that the AR can't handle blackpowder, IMHO, is like saying the '94 is the ultimate sniper weapon at 1000yds. Its isolated cases for both weapon systems. Both can do it but the amount of times is going to be very low w/o some sort of adjustments.

Can the AR do it all? Yes, but so can the leveractions, bolts, and other semiautos out today. Just pick your platform. Me, I have love for all of them but if it came to bad times and I only had the one of the two (M4 vs '94) I'd rather carry a M4 over a '94.

The "isolated case" scenerio becomes more important when the Gooberment makes the sale of "military" ammunition illegal (see Europe) and taxes/restricts/prohibits the sale/possession of powder.

I can MAKE black powder and still (theoretically) shoot my 45-70 out to 1000yds. I can't make a decent double-base nitro powder that will operate a gas gun.

That's the "important" difference IMO.

That's the difference.

[Blackhawk]

I skipped from page 2 to the last page so if this has been covered just ignore it. But yall bringing up the fact that the AR can't handle blackpowder, IMHO, is like saying the '94 is the ultimate sniper weapon at 1000yds. Its isolated cases for both weapon systems. Both can do it but the amount of times is going to be very low w/o some sort of adjustments.

Can the AR do it all? Yes, but so can the leveractions, bolts, and other semiautos out today. Just pick your platform. Me, I have love for all of them but if it came to bad times and I only had the one of the two (M4 vs '94) I'd rather carry a M4 over a '94.

The "isolated case" scenerio becomes more important when the Gooberment makes the sale of "military" ammunition illegal (see Europe) and taxes/restricts/prohibits the sale/possession of powder.

I can MAKE black powder and still (theoretically) shoot my 45-70 out to 1000yds. I can't make a decent double-base nitro powder that will operate a gas gun.

That's the "important" difference IMO.

That's the difference.

OI,

I can't argue with the blackpowder part when it comes to making it work in a lever vs a 94. And I can't argue the fact the government may infact one day put a stop to military ammunition sales. But something that we may be thinking about is the day that the government puts the stop to commerical ammo/powder. Then I think we're getting into a July 4th type of situation.

Sad how this worlds ignorance is dragging us back in time.

[O.S.O.K.]

I skipped from page 2 to the last page so if this has been covered just ignore it. But yall bringing up the fact that the AR can't handle blackpowder, IMHO, is like saying the '94 is the ultimate sniper weapon at 1000yds. Its isolated cases for both weapon systems. Both can do it but the amount of times is going to be very low w/o some sort of adjustments.

Can the AR do it all? Yes, but so can the leveractions, bolts, and other semiautos out today. Just pick your platform. Me, I have love for all of them but if it came to bad times and I only had the one of the two (M4 vs '94) I'd rather carry a M4 over a '94.

The "isolated case" scenerio becomes more important when the Gooberment makes the sale of "military" ammunition illegal (see Europe) and taxes/restricts/prohibits the sale/possession of powder.

I can MAKE black powder and still (theoretically) shoot my 45-70 out to 1000yds. I can't make a decent double-base nitro powder that will operate a gas gun.

That's the "important" difference IMO.

That's the difference.

Oh well, the thread meanders around. I give up.

As to this being of importance, it is only so if you choose an AR exclusively - I don't recommend that. if you want something that can handle every type of ammo then I agree that a lever gun is the best choice - repeater that relies on muscle powere to cycle the action. Smokeless/black powder is fine, jacketed/cast bullets are fine. The only shortcoming is that their sights tend to have a narrow adjustment but this can be handled with a good ajustable aperture sight.

But really, the idea is that we do something about our out of control govt. way before this kinda situation becomes reality.

And if you think about it - how long have hard drugs been illegal? And the black market keeps us well supplied regardless. ETA - not me personally of course I mean those who choose to abuse them and will pay the high prices to get them and risk imprisonment.... were there is demand and the profit is high enough, the items will be made available...

[O.S.O.K.]

A good friend of mine, who is "in the know" on such things, said he's seen plenty of the Vulcans in .50 BMG blow up. He advised me not to bother with one I coulda had for under a grand. (and no, he didn't want the guy's number)

They were talking about a Vulcan 50 Cal mini gun - not the thing Vulcan Arms products...

[Travis Morgan]

O.S.O.K.,

Thanks for clarifying.

Another thought on the AR..... If it malfunctions, or you get some ammo that won't cycle, it's a bitch to cycle manually, shot after shot. With a mini, it'd be a lot easier. With a lever, hell, it was MADE that way!

[O.S.O.K.]

All true. I wasn't saying tha the AR is the perfect rifle - just that it can do it all - that its versitile. That's all.

My personal go-to for "merde hitting the leveur" is an AK.

My personal hunting rifle of choice is probably the bolt action first followed by the lever action. That kinda depends on the type of hunting I'm doing.

I do like the AR though - and enjoy shooting it. And if it were what I had when the time of need arose, I'd feel perfectly armed with it - and would take care to maintain it to ensure function.

[awp101]

How many levers can drive nails though?

[O.S.O.K.]

Good Lord - you had to drag that over here?

[awp101]

Yep, I actually kind of dig it...

[Travis Morgan]

A good friend of mine, who is "in the know" on such things, said he's seen plenty of the Vulcans in .50 BMG blow up. He advised me not to bother with one I coulda had for under a grand. (and no, he didn't want the guy's number)

They were talking about a Vulcan 50 Cal mini gun - not the thing Vulcan Arms products...

No, he wasn't. Trust me; I was actually a part of the conversation! (Though I'm sure you'll try to use snopes to disprove that.)

[Paladin]

Yep, used one of those AR type things years ago. It did everything. Everything but fire reliably. Finally tore the care head off leaving the rest of the case in the chamber. Oh what fun. Ended that particular set to using a 1911.

Are you one of the guys who checked the yes box on the govt survey for : Forward assist
Cleaning kit
ammo made with cleaner powder per Milspec and
I'd like my M14 back now please ?

I am glad you made it out with your teeth...thank god for John M Browning eh. The late model M16-AR15s are a bit better... rumor has it the DOD is looking at bigger bored rifles again... we will see.

Jeff

I not only checked the box, I "found" an M14. I didn't have to hump it all day long like ground pounders, so the weight wasn't quite the same disadvantage.

I have carried Thompsons 1928, shot m-14s on a rifle team for seven years carried one on two continents, carried M-16s on four continents, MP-5s on three continents, and am currently carrying a MP-5. My favorite is a lever gun. But they all have their place and use.

[donw]

i think the reason the "AR" is so popular is the young troopers of now have been TOLD how great it is, NOT being shown it's short comings... ...in the end, i think it was because of costs. simply put...you can produce more 5.56/223 for the same dollar as opposed to 7.62/308...(some of the 'decked out' ar's weigh in as much as the M14, too)

i was trained with the M1 Garand...(yes...it's not been that long ago) then later to the M14, and the M1 carbine all of which i would choose over the m-16 as a COMBAT weapon. (for that matter i'd select an AK/Kalishnokov over the M16 ) i was not given the option of what weapon to carry when i went to the war in 'nam. the weapons we used (the .30/.50) were VERY effective.

where the AR is certainily a fine 'varmint/small game rifle, it's proving out to not be that great as a COMBAT weapon ; too many jams and malfunctions. why do they have the forward assist handle? and have you ever seen the footage of the troopers in 'nam with the cleaning rods tied to the tube of their M16? a recent poll showed the M1 garand to be voted the finest COMBAT rifle ever designed.

do you ever wonder why most DFG in most states do not allow .223/5.56/.22 for 'big game'?. i know...i know..."last year i slam dunked a six-pointer using muh .223..."...i don't doubt it can be done. but...bullet placement and type/load must be as near to PERFECT as is humanly possible to insure the instant, humane kill we as hunters want using the .223 bullet(s) just listen to the horror stories of troopers who have shot a bad guy with a .223/5.56 just to see him run off. (my cousins and many of my friends that were there after me who were stuck with the M16, too, were among them) that was brought out in the news many times as of late.

recent news articles have disclosed that the military is finally questioning the bullets they're using in the 5.56 as being 'adequate' that 's why theyr'e switching to the 6.8 SPC and 6.9 Grinell and going back to the .45ACP. (that and they have been able to adapt the current m16 platform to the 6.8 and 6.9)

if you'll dig back into it's history, i think you'll find the M16 was originally NOT designed as a COMBAT weapon, but as a weapon for air force base security. another good read about is in snipercountry.com.

again, i think the AR rifles are a great semi-auto platform and in a more capable caliber (AR-10/308) are ok for combat but NOT in the 5.56/223...

as the song goes..."that's my story and i'm stickin' to it"...

[jeepnik]

DonW, you are quite correct about the original intent for the M-16. LeMay wanted to replace the old M-1 carbines the Air Force had inherited from the Army whenthey became a separate service. For base security where they can be kept cleaned and serviced, and are generally only shot on the rifle range, they would probably work well. The thing us airdale types found out was SEA wasn't a rifle range. The M-16 sucked. You can't change history, even though you might like to.

Oh, as one poster mentioned the younger troops believing the M-16 to be great becasue they were told no different, both boys found on their first of three trips each to the sand box, that the dad was right. The M-16 sucks.

[MistWolf]

....And I also agree that if the frippin congressmen were the ones going into harm's way, that this would have been taken care of many years ago. Like in the 60's.

Yeah, if it'd been our Congressmen going into harms way, we'd have made sure they were issued muskets with marshmallow bullets and wet powder

As OSOK originally posted, the AR PLATFORM is indeed very versatile system and can do it all and does most things well enough that it pops up in nearly every shooting venue. Take a look at some of the things it's done.

Tubbs has taken the AR, converted it to a bolt action and has shot some very tight groups in competition. Even the semi-auto versions do well. The AR platform dominates Service Rifle matches, even fired at 600 yards. The Bushmaster Varminter makes an excellent prairie poodle shooter. The original AR platform, the AR-10, can handle any caliber based on the 308 case. Now, you can use the AR platform to humanely take deer sized critters. Chambered for the 300 SAUM, it can be used on elk. I don't know if it's still made, but a version of the AR was being manufactured in South Africa as a pump. I've also seen ads for an AR stretched to take the 30-06.

Uppers have been made to allow you to shoot calibers from the little 22LR all the way up to the 50 BMG.

Though it's combat record has it's black marks, it has full-filled that role for many years. Reports show it to be more reliable in the Sand Box than any other 5.56 such as the AUG or Enfield. Much of the M4 lack of "stopping power" stems from ammo choice. Blackwater has time and again proven that the ammo supplied by Black Hills works. I will not make claims the AR is the best combat rifle for our troops, but I'm not convinced it's the worse. If there is something better, let's get it- and not from another country.

The AR platform does compare to the lever action of the 19th century as well as the bolt action of the 20th in terms of utility, refinement, reliability and versatility. As gunsmiths of the 19th century could make a lever action do anything a customer wanted and gunsmiths of the 20th could make a bolt action do anything from punching little itty bitty holes in a paper target, take any game animal that walked, crawled or flew or go to war, the same cam be said of todays gunsmiths with the AR, more so than any other self loading weapon system

[Hillbilly]

Took a few years, and too many lives, and the idiots in procurement finally figured it out and went to the .45 acp.(don't get me started on the 9mm). What they should do is get off their hindquarters and develop a 7.62 round (gee the 7.62X39 comes to mind) in a slightly scaled down M-14 action. It will be light enough to carry, have sufficient power to penetrate cover and still ~jeepnik

If Ruger would have pushed that MINI14/30 out about 5 years earlier I would have been the US service rifle.

I like the AR ... change out the uppers ...fun to shoot etc. But I really like my Mini 14 better... shoots everything including Wolf without a hickup. Lucky I guess... the one I have is minute of milk jug at 100 yards and a fair 'yote zapper.

From the stories we are reading the Mini's being built on the new tooling are pretty accurate.

There is a Mini 30 in town for $500.... maybe he will trade........................

Jeff