OT - AR-15 can do it all...

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:14 pm

While reading the threads about the M94 being the do it all rifle... I got to thinking about the AR-15. It's kind of the M94 of the 21st Century. It's also chambered in all kinds of calibers and can be had in .22LR up to 50 Beawolf. Very much like the 94 Winchester.

In fact, you could have one lower and several uppers that would allow you to hunt just about anything - rifle-wise.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:45 pm

YE GADS.......

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:52 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:YE GADS.......

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:53 pm

Wrong Forum !!!!!

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:09 pm

hes' right..the AR plaform can do it all.

Except without the classic flair and style a grand blued steel and walnut lever can do it with.

Sometimes style trumps substance.

Hill

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:12 pm

"OT" = off topic.

And I wasn't suggesting that the AR-15 was "the choice" over a levergun... just pointing out that it's kinda the 94 of this past century - or more accurately, of the second half of the last century and heading into the 21st...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:30 pm

Bzzzz. Wrong answer.

The AR platform is only as good as the powder making gas to operate the fool thing.

Feed a Levergun Black and it's as happy as it was in the 1800s. Feed an AR Black and it stops working mos-tic.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:27 pm

Yep, used one of those AR type things years ago. It did everything. Everything but fire reliably. Finally tore the care head off leaving the rest of the case in the chamber. Oh what fun. Ended that particular set to using a 1911.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:24 pm

as much as i like the 94wcf,src. , got to take an m-4 in a survival, and or combat situation. get both ,and your ready for anything.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:44 pm

Personally, I think a good knife can do it all. The bonus is that you get to improve your stalking skills too!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:03 pm

KirkD wrote:Personally, I think a good knife can do it all. The bonus is that you get to improve your stalking skills too!

If'n you tie the knife to a long stick, you can climb a tree and wait till your quarry walks under you and then stick 'em real good by surprise. That way if it gets p.o.'d you're safe up the tree. Hopefully.

tman wrote: on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:24 pm
as much as i like the 94wcf,src. , got to take an m-4 in a survival, and or combat situation. get both ,and your ready for anything.

Now I can accept that. I've fired an M-16, and a couple AR-15s so I'm basically familiar with how they operate. I can see the point of having one if your attacked by a hoard of _____________________. But I still want my Winchester 94 in 30-30 caliber.

Joe

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:32 pm

Could I interest you in some Velveta Cheese product?

-Tutt

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:57 pm

If I'm attacked by a horde, that's what the 9mm SMG & Claymores are for...

.223 on full auto out at "rifle" ranges is about as useless as the 9mm SMG at those ranges.

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:43 pm

jeepnik wrote:Yep, used one of those AR type things years ago. It did everything. Everything but fire reliably. Finally tore the care head off leaving the rest of the case in the chamber. Oh what fun. Ended that particular set to using a 1911.

Are you one of the guys who checked the yes box on the govt survey for : Forward assist
Cleaning kit
ammo made with cleaner powder per Milspec and
I'd like my M14 back now please ?

I am glad you made it out with your teeth...thank god for John M Browning eh. The late model M16-AR15s are a bit better... rumor has it the DOD is looking at bigger bored rifles again... we will see.

Jeff

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:51 pm

Just so you understand where I'm comin' from; In VN I had the choice of carrying an M-16 or a Thompsom M1928-A1; I chose the Tommy gun, never regetted it.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:32 pm

It did everything. Everything but fire reliably.

YAWN

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:36 pm

I'm a troll for pointing out the versatility of the AR? OK....

I wasn't trying to start anything other than a conversation about rifle versatility and the more modern types.

I was reading the 94 can do it all/can't do it all and I looked at my new avitar (updated Battle of Goliad Flag) and it ocurred to me that the AR is like the 94 in this respect.

Are you guy's really that anti black rifle?

I'm surprised at you if you are.

I come here primarily for the levergun talk - I have a nice collection of them - and I ended up here on an invite as I was looking at rechambering a 35 Rem 336 to 356 Win....

Guess I won't be mentioning my AK (!!!) collection either...

If you don't want OT then don't click on the OT threads IMHO.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:47 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:I'm a troll for pointing out the versatility of the AR? OK....
I wasn't trying to start anything other than a conversation about rifle versatility and the more modern types.
I was reading the 94 can do it all/can't do it all and I looked at my new avitar (updated Battle of Goliad Flag) and it ocurred to me that the AR is like the 94 in this respect.
Are you guy's really that anti black rifle?
I'm surprised at you if you are.
I come here primarily for the levergun talk - I have a nice collection of them - and I ended up here on an invite as I was looking at rechambering a 35 Rem 336 to 356 Win....
Guess I won't be mentioning my AK (!!!) collection either...
If you don't want OT then don't click on the OT threads IMHO.

See the smilies? I was a'teasin'. I like my version of the EBR, a Springfield M-1 Garand.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:52 pm

Oh, I'm not worried - just a little surprised at the response. I have only two AR's and... lemee see 7 lever guns. By my own "economic vote" I favor the levergun.

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:09 pm

EBR... right now mine is a '44 built Garand.. a mini 14 is on standby. I sold my AR and am looking for another or two before the electon.

We all dig levers here ... I dont know how it would poll but a lot of guys here have ARs, FNFals and AK's

Jeff

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:15 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:Oh, I'm not worried - just a little surprised at the response. I have only two AR's and... lemee see 7 lever guns. By my own "economic vote" I favor the levergun.

I was just teasing too! AR's are good for what they're designed to do and, for me, that's the problem. AR's are just a tool; levers are for pleasure.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:50 pm

It doesn't mater what you can do when you're that ugly.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:52 pm

Kind of interesting, when you consider, the Spencer and Henry were the "EBRs" of their day.

Jack

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:55 pm

jhrosier wrote:Kind of interesting, when you consider, the Spencer and Henry were the "EBRs" of their day.

Jack

DINGDINGDING!

I've heard them called the original assault rifles which isn't technically true since by definition a assault rifle has a happy switch. Other than that they are very close in concept.

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:02 pm

I have 1 ebr (Evil brown rifle) grandpa's m-1 carbine that has been in the family for years. It is a hoot to shoot but I still think that if a real social problem phase happens I would rely on the 94 30-30. I do see the point of the lever as the ebr of the 1800's though. I do think that the ar in all of its variants can do it all, but Id rather have a 30-30

Dastook · Post by **Dastook** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:34 am

My first love, and last love will always be Leverguns as I have many of them. I just bought my first AR a month ago. I had never shot one until then. I have got to tell you, it is FUN to shoot. I think we would have to agree the M4/M16/AR's of today are not what they were during the VN era. All you have to do is ask yourself why the most successful military in the world still uses it. And talk to the current men and women who are serving. All of them I see praise them. And our enemies, well I think they respect them.

HEAD0001 · Post by **HEAD0001** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:48 am

AR-What is an AR. You mean this is not a LeverGun?? Tom.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:25 am

I received my meritorious promotion to PFC in boot camp firing the M16A1. Actually broke the recruit record on pre-qual day, but when my DI gave me the talking about "You did it once, you can do it again or I'm gonna put my boot so far..." Well I choked the next day. I couldn't get that boot out of my mind. I still was the series highest shooter. I carried my CAR15 yesterday on a dope search warrant and I feel very comfortable with the M16/AR15 platform. That said, I still love my levers, they have character. My AR is more just a tool.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:48 am

Rusty wrote:It doesn't mater what you can do when you're that ugly.

Hey, ugly needs love too.

My current part time job for Uncle Sugar revolves entirely around that platform and my ability with it. I have an inbred affinity for all things western and grew up herding cows and dreaming of being a cowboy, but if I was presented a choice between lever or AR mine would be AR. It is a superior tool in all regards. I know all about guys who can outdo the "average" semi-auto shooter, but stack that person up against a semi-auto shooter with the same amount of dedication and training and it won't even be a contest. I think if the ol cowboys had the same choice they would choose the same. One guy could easily hold off a whole tribe of injuns with an AR and a basic load.

41 Redhawk · Post by **41 Redhawk** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:49 am

Ummm, the only problem with the AR-15 doing it all is that you can not hunt with it in PA. No Semi-auto rifles allowed. I believe there are other states like that as well.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:57 am

41 Redhawk wrote:Ummm, the only problem with the AR-15 doing it all is that you can not hunt with it in PA. No Semi-auto rifles allowed. I believe there are other states like that as well.

That is not the AR's problem anymore than it's the guns fault when someone is murdered.. If you want to hunt with an AR, move somewhere that respects your rights.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:53 am

I just recently sold my M4gery. Nice gun, unreasonably accurate out to ranges I can't see, and 100% functional with proper ammo.

But the assertion was the AR platform can "do it all".

It can't operate on Black/Improvised Powder (unless you really like working the charging handle...), so, it can NOT do everything a levergun can.

That's all I'm saying...

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:22 am

Hunting with an AR is perfectly legal, so long as you have a 4 or 5 shot magazine in it, and the upper is in a legal caliber for the game you're hunting.

That said, I still maintain that it's unethical to hunt anything bigger than a coyote with a .223. I feel that they're marginal on big coyotes. The only good thing about the AR-15 is that you can send hordes of little bitty bullets, instead of just the one, for a "shotgun effect".

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:58 am

The AR platform can be had in .308 and 50cal...which is certainly big/powerful enough for any creature on the planet

It can be had in 22lr, 9mm, .223... certainly enough for most any situation most civilians would ever face.

Also, Hornady just introduced the new .450 Bushmaster Hornady - a 250gr bullet at 2200fps.

It can also be had in 7"/ 11"/ 14.5" /16" / 20" / 24" barrel lengths...

I'd say, if all I had was an AR each in the above calibers, I wouldn't feel like I was undergunned at all in any situation.

Just like all I have now are leveractions in 22lr/22mag/357mag/44mag/45colt/45-70 and surely wouldn't feel undergunned in any situation I'd face.

I've played with the AR platform for almost 20yrs now, but never felt the need to own one. I guess I'm just a levergun kinda' guy.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:28 pm

I will give you a +1 since you at least labeled it as an OT thread. We will call the Charging Handle the lever!

Although I have a particular fondness for the M-4 varient!

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:20 pm

Wow, black powder.... yeah, have to admit, the AR's not much good with black. That makes me think though if anybody has ever made their own smokeless powder? It can't be that hard - just nitrocelulose with graphite coating right? I now that during the depression people would take used film negatives and chop them up finely and use that as pistol propellant. Apparently it works - or did with the type of celulose film with silver that they had at that time...

I have to say though that the Handi Rifle is even more versitile if you take that kinda thing into account. You don't even have to worry about rounds cycling.

And all the talk about Garands makes me wish mine was home with me. It currently resides with my Dad.

That's one of my other interests - milsurps.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:49 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:Wow, black powder.... yeah, have to admit, the AR's not much good with black. That makes me think though if anybody has ever made their own smokeless powder? It can't be that hard - just nitrocelulose with graphite coating right? I now that during the depression people would take used film negatives and chop them up finely and use that as pistol propellant. Apparently it works - or did with the type of celulose film with silver that they had at that time....

Answers:

Making BP is moderately easy... and illegal....

Making Nitroglygerine based propellants is dangerous... and illegal.

Making Nitrocellulose is a dangerous, a PITA... and illegal.

Making Double Based powder is beyond the tech of the Resistance/Hobbiest.... and illegal.

I have an FM that tells you how to do the first 3 ... but they still won't run a Gas Operated firearm properly.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:46 pm

What FM is that?

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:59 pm

Since when in making a small quantity of black powder illegal?

Please cite the law.

I know of many people that make their own black powder for their own use.

Did you know you can make tannerite (a binary explosive) legally? You can purchase it as well - comes in two parts which you combine prior to using.

And I'm betting he has a copy of the anarchist's cookbook... ?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:56 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:Since when in making a small quantity of black powder illegal?

Please cite the law.

Unfortunately, the BATFE doesn't treat Black like they do Beer or even small batch distilling:

Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of Federal explosives laws and regulations. However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term “destructive device” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4). However, persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a Federal explosives license. [18 U.S.C. 841(c), 841(d), 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.11: definitions of “explosives” and “explosive materials”, 555.141(b)]

See also all of US CODE: TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 40

None of 18, I, 40 permits the possession, much less manufacture, of "non-commercial" Black powder.

I know of many people that make their own black powder for their own use.

They are risking both Federal and possibly Local boots-through-the-door.

Did you know you can make tannerite (a binary explosive) legally? You can purchase it as well - comes in two parts which you combine prior to using.

Yep. Binary Explosives are only regulable AFTER combination. I used to carry both KinePac and KineStick (commercial binaries) on commercial airlines...

And I'm betting he has a copy of the anarchist's cookbook... ?

[/quote]
Me? No. That's a good way to get hurt. What I have (among other interesting and vetted ephemera, which is why I may get the exact book wrong...) is TM 31-201-1 (1966) and TM 31-210 (1969)

I'll have to go digging for my instructions on how to make nitrocellulose (guncotton).

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:01 pm

Travis Morgan wrote:What FM is that?

My bad, I misremembered. It's a combination of TMs, plus a modification of some of the proceedures... See above.

Easier than Guncotton is Sugar/KnO3/FeO2... though it doesn't work in pistols well...

OH, BTW...

I just found a Muzzlestuffer AR upper.

Load your powder and .50 Sabot from the front then feed a modified .223 blank (holds a 209 primer) from the magazine.

Boom.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008 ... der-ar-15/

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:01 pm

I have a RRA 24" in 223 with 1 in 12" twist (for the light stuff), a Vulcan Arms 1 in 7" (for the heavy stuff), a DPMS 6.8SPC 16" (for the bigger stuff), and a Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf 16" (for the mean stuff). And I only have one lower, a Vulcan Arms polymer reciever with a trigger kit added.

You can also get a 338 Lapua upper for it too. I happen to like the newer 458 SOCOM, and would like a 6.5 Grendel for Christmas

. The AR is pretty straight forward and it's getting insanely accurate too. Now it's easy to build a snap together "sniper" rifle. Just buy a lower, and your choice of upper, and you are in business. I carry my AR alot when hunting season is in, usually in Beowulf or 6.8 SPC configuration. Like any other gun they must be taken care of, but if you take care of them and do your part they will hold up your end of the deal.

These things, in my opinion are the ultimate coyote rifle. Light, handy, accurate, and a fast follow up, or second shot (should a double show up), and quick back on target. I don't know about in other places, but the coyotes around here run anywhere form 30-50 pounds +/- with my personal biggest being 48lbs. Taken in 2002 with a 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tip at about 150 yards. The dog never knew what hit him. And all from an AR platform.

Now if I could just get someone to make a cartridge off of the Beowulf with a .30 or .338 bullet in the end of it. Or even a 7mm. I'd be in heaven.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:40 am

O.S.O.K. wrote:I'm a troll for pointing out the versatility of the AR? OK....

I wasn't trying to start anything other than a conversation about rifle versatility and the more modern types.

I was reading the 94 can do it all/can't do it all and I looked at my new avitar (updated Battle of Goliad Flag) and it ocurred to me that the AR is like the 94 in this respect.

Are you guy's really that anti black rifle?

I'm surprised at you if you are.

I come here primarily for the levergun talk - I have a nice collection of them - and I ended up here on an invite as I was looking at rechambering a 35 Rem 336 to 356 Win....

Guess I won't be mentioning my AK (!!!) collection either...

If you don't want OT then don't click on the OT threads IMHO.

Maybe some of these are the "Sportsmen" that are heard giving up Evil Black Rifles cause the have no Sporting Value. Pesonally I have several and love em. The leverguns just have a sense of "history and beauty about them.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:44 am

Hillbilly wrote:
jeepnik wrote:Yep, used one of those AR type things years ago. It did everything. Everything but fire reliably. Finally tore the care head off leaving the rest of the case in the chamber. Oh what fun. Ended that particular set to using a 1911.
Are you one of the guys who checked the yes box on the govt survey for : Forward assist
Cleaning kit
ammo made with cleaner powder per Milspec and
I'd like my M14 back now please ?

I am glad you made it out with your teeth...thank god for John M Browning eh. The late model M16-AR15s are a bit better... rumor has it the DOD is looking at bigger bored rifles again... we will see.

Jeff

I not only checked the box, I "found" an M14. I didn't have to hump it all day long like ground pounders, so the weight wasn't quite the same disadvantage.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:52 am

Dastook wrote:My first love, and last love will always be Leverguns as I have many of them. I just bought my first AR a month ago. I had never shot one until then. I have got to tell you, it is FUN to shoot. I think we would have to agree the M4/M16/AR's of today are not what they were during the VN era. All you have to do is ask yourself why the most successful military in the world still uses it. And talk to the current men and women who are serving. All of them I see praise them. And our enemies, well I think they respect them.

I must disagree with your comment about today's young men and their opinions of the AR platform. Two sons, both Marines, three tours each ina combination of Iraq and Afghanistan. "BOTH" found that the M-4 variant sucked in dry sandy conditions. Just like the original sucked in wet muddy conditions. Just becasue it is issued doesn't mean it is the best available weapon. Remember, contracts go to either the "lowest" bidder, or the one with the biggest "bribes". Usually both.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:54 am

Terry Murbach wrote:YE GADS.......

+1

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:00 am

Old Ironsights - thanks for the information - I was unaware of that - makeing small quanities of black is illegal. What a farse! There are many out there doing just that and speaking openly about it on the gun boards.

I do not, seeing it as a great way to waste money and time to get an inconsistent product, but I've read people talking about it many times.

And I forgot about that muzzle loading upper!

There's probably a shotgun upper too.

And just for the record, I wasn't trying to drum up a Zumbo conversation - I've not found the folks here to be "Fudds" at all.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:58 pm

505stevec wrote:
O.S.O.K. wrote:I'm a troll for pointing out the versatility of the AR? OK....

I wasn't trying to start anything other than a conversation about rifle versatility and the more modern types.

I was reading the 94 can do it all/can't do it all and I looked at my new avitar (updated Battle of Goliad Flag) and it ocurred to me that the AR is like the 94 in this respect.

Are you guy's really that anti black rifle?

I'm surprised at you if you are.

I come here primarily for the levergun talk - I have a nice collection of them - and I ended up here on an invite as I was looking at rechambering a 35 Rem 336 to 356 Win....

Guess I won't be mentioning my AK (!!!) collection either...

If you don't want OT then don't click on the OT threads IMHO.

Maybe some of these are the "Sportsmen" that are heard giving up Evil Black Rifles cause the have no Sporting Value. Pesonally I have several and love em. The leverguns just have a sense of "history and beauty about them.

Actually, I believe most of us appreciate leverguns for their practicality and ruggedness. If the get dirty, so what? Wipe 'em out with a hanky or old sock, blow them out, and you're good to go. Get an AR dirty, you have to go back home, drag out all your cleaning stuff....... Just not worth it to some of us.

I do, however, appreciate the AR's finer points. They're ideal for an urban environment or for a shooting range, but I just don't trust them when it counts, out where the pavement ends. There's I reason why I chose the less accurate Mini-14 for a semi-auto varmint gun. I can dunk it in the mud, if I want to, and still count on it. To stop a Mini or a levergun, you really have to do something seriously stupid, like dropping an anvil on it, or letting a horse roll on it.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:14 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:YE GADS.......

+1, +2, etc....

Then again I do have a couple of "black rifles"

and assault type weapons:

and

Just can not warm up to those thingy's they gave me in the service though...heck an AK was better.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:28 pm

Nice collection there! Looks like you took a shine to the Black Shadows

And although I think the AR is a very good rifle in the field (just have to have a field cleaning kit) I must agree that when it gets down and dirty, the AK is more reliable.