Setting up for 454

[mickbr]

So I got me a Lee 3 die set, then let some forum folks over at ruger.net talked me into the redding profile crimp die instead of the regular factory crimp die I was adding. Not sure if I wasted money there but anyway. Starline brass, 300XTP bullets, N110 powder which I believe is a little faster than H110 and lilgun, but as I have a lot of it, its going in first.
I read different things about top end loads that they can retire brass after one firing and to only use them for 45 colt levels after that, also how speer only recommends winchester brass. A lot of fellas online disagreed saying they get multiple firings with Hornady and Starline no problem. So after wading through some literature, myth and personal anecdotes of the cartridge Im about ready to load and chrony some in my rossi 454 lever next week. Not aiming to set any records, somewhere between 1800fps and 1900fps with a 300 grain would do, thats still less than Hornady factory load.

[1972RedNeck]

So I got me a Lee 3 die set, then let some forum folks over at ruger.net talked me into the redding profile crimp die instead of the regular factory crimp die I was adding. Not sure if I wasted money there but anyway. Starline brass, 300XTP bullets, N110 powder which I believe is a little faster than H110 and lilgun, but as I have a lot of it, its going in first.
I read different things about top end loads that they can retire brass after one firing and to only use them for 45 colt levels after that, also how speer only recommends winchester brass. A lot of fellas online disagreed saying they get multiple firings with Hornady and Starline no problem. So after wading through some literature, myth and personal anecdotes of the cartridge Im about ready to load and chrony some in my rossi 454 lever next week. Not aiming to set any records, somewhere between 1800fps and 1900fps with a 300 grain would do, thats still less than Hornady factory load.

I have loaded Starline brass in 454 with max pressure loads 5+ times for a piece of brass. Have yet to have to retire a case. You will likely either beat your gun apart or beat your shoulder to a pulp before you use up the life of 100 pieces of quality brass.

I only have two revolvers that shoot 454. No rifles. I can take pretty much all the recoil but a lot of H110 under a 360gr hard cast is too much for me in my SRH. Not bad at all in my scoped XVR.

[Walt]

I've had a FA .454 for about 30 years and have never lost a case with 300 gr cast 454629 GC bullets at about 1500 fps. Of course I don't shoot it as often as milder recoiling revolvers but I have lots of reloads with that power level.

[wvfarrier]

Believe it or not, I anneal my 454 brass and as a result have some on their 9th or 10th reload.

[Turdyturdy]

Be careful how many max 454 loads you shoot in a revolver. My Super Red Hawk has had around 600 near max loads through it and the bottom of the top strap has significant gas cutting where the cylinder and forcing cone gap is. Had 2 gunsmiths look at it and both said the cutting is deep enough to be concerned. One recommended I drop my loads to no more than 44mag velocities.

[CowboyTutt]

Mickbr, the Redding Profile die is one of only two dies I would use for heavy revolver loads like 454 Casull etc (the other being the Lee FCD of course). Not seen any problems with modern brass in 454 Casull and any reputable company should do like Starline or Hornady. Your powder choice is fine. Lil' Gun may cause more erosion according to tests Bob Baker did many years ago, but Hornady has never seen any proof of it (I called them) and I still continue to use it.

My Puma's manufacture date is about 2002 IIRC and it has given me problems. Hoping the metallurgy or heat-treating has improved. I would highly recommend you chronograph some factory Hornady ammo with the 300 grain XTP Mag bullet and get your handloads to match the velocity and you should be OK. Please remember that the Casull is already maxed out and one grain of powder makes a big difference in pressure levels and velocity when your already close to the edge.

In revolvers extraction is as much a tell tale sign as primer flattening. The Puma can sort of mislead you in its strength if you ask me as its a rifle. It won't blow up on you, but damage can be cumulative over time (even a short time) as it has been for me.

Regards,

-Tutt

[AJMD429]

Be careful how many max 454 loads you shoot in a revolver. My Super Red Hawk has had around 600 near max loads through it and the bottom of the top strap has significant gas cutting where the cylinder and forcing cone gap is. Had 2 gunsmiths look at it and both said the cutting is deep enough to be concerned. One recommended I drop my loads to no more than 44mag velocities.

With the 357 Maximum Ruger Revolvers I read that the cutting GENERALLY only went so-far, then due to the pressure being more or less the cube of the distance from the origin, tended to cease before danger arose. Of course that cartridge was a much lower pressure than the 454 Casull. This is just what I read, so take it for the two zinc-and-copper pennies it's worth. I always wondered why they didn't try putting an insert there of titanium or some other metal, but Ruger tends to make great revolvers in terms of sturdiness, so they probably didn't feel it was needed.

As far as CRIMPING - I use the Lee Factory Crimp RIFLE-TYPE die for the pistol (revolver) cartridges I load - 32-20, 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt, and plan to for 454 Casull and 500 S&W when I start reloading for those (once I accumulate enough brass).

Note the Lee FCD's are NOT all the same - SEE THIS THREAD for details ----> https://levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=36654. Unfortunately, the images from that post are obsolete, but there are 'collet' type dies and 'ring' type dies, and the ring ones are essentially a floating carbide cylinder that will perform a roll crimp - they are sold as 'pistol' dies. The 'collet' ones have a four-fingered collet that will perform a crimp that is exactly placed, and will crimp even into a non-cannelured jacketed bullet - they are sold as 'rilfe' dies.

Lee will make custom ones for $30.00 - very competitive cost for a custom die...! - https://leeprecision.com/custom-service ... crimp-dies

[6pt-sika]

Be careful how many max 454 loads you shoot in a revolver. My Super Red Hawk has had around 600 near max loads through it and the bottom of the top strap has significant gas cutting where the cylinder and forcing cone gap is. Had 2 gunsmiths look at it and both said the cutting is deep enough to be concerned. One recommended I drop my loads to no more than 44mag velocities.

With the 357 Maximum Ruger Revolvers I read that the cutting GENERALLY only went so-far, then due to the pressure being more or less the cube of the distance from the origin, tended to cease before danger arose. Of course that cartridge was a much lower pressure than the 454 Casull. This is just what I read, so take it for the two zinc-and-copper pennies it's worth. I always wondered why they didn't try putting an insert there of titanium or some other metal, but Ruger tends to make great revolvers in terms of sturdiness, so they probably didn't feel it was needed.

We had a IHMSA guy here that shot a mountain of cartridges at steel and a great many with Blackhawk in 357 MAX he cut the top straps in half on atleast three and at his death he had one that was unfired in the box Ruger had given him . I had a Dan Wesson stainless in 357 MAX it cut a groove on the underside of the top strap and as you said ceased after a point , that was probably the most accurate off hand revolver I had for longer range . Only Casull I ever messed with was a Taurus Raging Bull owned by a friend (I’m no Taurus fan) it shot well enough and I never noticed any strap damage , I had an S&W in 460 S&W I also never noticed any damage to the strop . As to the Super Redhawk I only had them in 44 and 480 and again never noticed too strap damage of the three 44’s and two 480’s I liked the 480’s a skoosh more to be totally honest .

[weiler]

Be careful how many max 454 loads you shoot in a revolver. My Super Red Hawk has had around 600 near max loads through it and the bottom of the top strap has significant gas cutting where the cylinder and forcing cone gap is. Had 2 gunsmiths look at it and both said the cutting is deep enough to be concerned. One recommended I drop my loads to no more than 44mag velocities.

What powder/loads were you shooting?

[Crazy Horse]

I bought a FA 454 back in the early 90's and loaded for it a good bit. I always used the FA brass and H110. I don't remember having any brass crack. Nowadays my gun sets in the safe being unhot, so I guess all my brass is going to last a long time now. Ha

[mickbr]

Mickbr, the Redding Profile die is one of only two dies I would use for heavy revolver loads like 454 Casull etc (the other being the Lee FCD of course). Not seen any problems with modern brass in 454 Casull and any reputable company should do like Starline or Hornady. Your powder choice is fine. Lil' Gun may cause more erosion according to tests Bob Baker did many years ago, but Hornady has never seen any proof of it (I called them) and I still continue to use it.

My Puma's manufacture date is about 2002 IIRC and it has given me problems. Hoping the metallurgy or heat-treating has improved. I would highly recommend you chronograph some factory Hornady ammo with the 300 grain XTP Mag bullet and get your handloads to match the velocity and you should be OK. Please remember that the Casull is already maxed out and one grain of powder makes a big difference in pressure levels and velocity when your already close to the edge.

In revolvers extraction is as much a tell tale sign as primer flattening. The Puma can sort of mislead you in its strength if you ask me as its a rifle. It won't blow up on you, but damage can be cumulative over time (even a short time) as it has been for me.

Regards,

-Tutt

Thanks Tutt, yes i heard things got better with the later upgrades of the 454 rossi, but who knows, as with Rossi you never know about the one you have until you try it. I will chrony some 300XTp factory as well. Youtube says they chrony 1950-2050fps , 16 or 20" barrel probably accounts for some variatoon. I will quit at 1900, though thats arbitrary, accuracy may dictate where I really go and effect on shoulder.

For hard cast Ive been thinking either the NOE 454-350, not sure if the rossi will like feeding that, so also maybe the plain old Lee 452-300

[AJMD429]

.
When I start reloading for the 454, it will be only for the Rossi, as I have no revolvers bigger/hotter than 44 Magnum and 45 Colt Redhawks and Blackhawks.

I will probably just load 'really hot' 45 Colt level loads, using the longer brass to distinguish them. I have no desire to shoot anything hotter than 240 grain White Box WInchester JFP's out of a handgun anyway.

If I need bigger mojo I am lucky enough to have three options - 444 Marlin and 45-70 Govt in 'long-action' leverguns, and a 500 S&W BHA-89 'pistol caliber carbine' that is about the same size as a Marlin 1984 44 Mag or Marlin Guide Gun (about the same 'heft' as the latter).

However the little 16" Rossi in 454 Casull would likely be my choice as totin' gun in grizzly country, should I ever venture there - it is just so handy I know I'd never set it down...

[Grizz]

my 44 hard 305gr cast deer load was something under 1200fps, i forget what i was told by someone who was scolding me for having such a wimpy load, and how i should be running at 1500+, which is hotter than Mr. Taffin ran it...

AND that wimpy load was a HAMMER on deer. it just killed 'em dead right there. the wimp-gun. Heh.

the one thing more velocity can do is extend the handgun performance farther out. it's reasonable to crank it up for the distance. but deers can't stand it the way it is if you can get close to them, say 50 or 60 yards. the rifle should make that approx 100 yard gun. or wherever the impact velocity is around 1150-ish.

as far as that goes the white box 240Gr 44mag "standard load" is also a hammer on deer. The 1894 Marlin made its share of meat. My son still has it. I think the way to get more range would be a 444, and maybe that's what a hot rodded 454 equates to? IDK

way easier on the guns.

ANYWAY have fun working up your loads for the gun, it's always interesting...

[mickbr]

No small amount of wisdom in your posts there Grizz. I think with a 454 a lot is about power in small package, but also macho factor of owning the pistol cartridge that can run 60KPSI. How much of that horsepower is needed or used is another story. For me it will be my 'big gun', that and 3" 12ga is about all I can handle anymore.

Hotrodding 454 vs 444. Just off reports, not experience.

Hornady factory 240XTP-Mag -1900fps on the box and apparently beats 2200fps in a carbine. A 444 factory marlin load is 2350fps.
Hornady 300 grain Hornady back country dangerous game load has 1820fps on the box.
No idea what real world velocity is from a carbine barrel but logic suggests at least 2100+. That would be a stout load for a 444, around 3000ftlbs.
Fatter bullets in 45 cal will be a bit less aerodynamic than same weight in .429 of course...

[mickbr]

Something I forgot to ask fellas. Whats the verdict on small rifle versus small rifle magnum primers. As mentioned Im using N110 so not as heavy as H110. Should a small rifle primer set that off? I have a lot from 223 use, would be good. But will buy magnum if I have to

[mickbr]

.
When I start reloading for the 454, it will be only for the Rossi, as I have no revolvers bigger/hotter than 44 Magnum and 45 Colt Redhawks and Blackhawks.

However the little 16" Rossi in 454 Casull would likely be my choice as totin' gun in grizzly country, should I ever venture there - it is just so handy I know I'd never set it down...

What projectiles and velocities you thinking for that purpose Doc

[JimT]

I shot the 454 Freedom Arms a lot beginning in 1986 and for the next 20 years. The only brass I lost were the ones due to extremely high pressure that enlarged the primer pockets. The loads were crazy! The primers would fall out when you opened the loading gate. One shot ruined brand-new brass. I did a lot of silly things in those days and lived to remember them. But taken care of, the brass lasted through many reloads, often 20 or more.

[AJMD429]

.
When I start reloading for the 454, it will be only for the Rossi, as I have no revolvers bigger/hotter than 44 Magnum and 45 Colt Redhawks and Blackhawks.

However the little 16" Rossi in 454 Casull would likely be my choice as totin' gun in grizzly country, should I ever venture there - it is just so handy I know I'd never set it down...

What projectiles and velocities you thinking for that purpose Doc

Dunno... Seems like hard-cast lead or brass solids penetrate best, and 1,000 to 1,300 fps seems to be optimal for penetration, but I've not studied the matter that much, as the odds of my going to grizzly country any time soon are slim.

Now if I was going out to intentionally encounter a grizzly bear or other big thing with fangs and claws, I'd probably tote the much-heavier 375 Ruger or the mid-size 500 S&W BHA. Either of those with a factory load would likely do really well. We had to put down a large buck goat with meningitis a few years back and I used the 375 Ruger, and a heart shot from 15 feet or so just put the lights out right there and then. Of course about any gun would have been lethal, but similarly-sized whitetails with a 44 Mag would typically sprint 30-60 yards before dropping. The goat just dropped instantly. Of course a 500 pound angry bear is a bit different than a 200 pound sick goat.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

+1 for the Redding Profile Crimp die. I have a one ... 38 Special. They work well where you can't get a Lee Collet FCD.

[mickbr]

So Im liking the looks of the regular 300XTP. Saw a youtube test showing some minor expansion as low as 940fps, nice expansion at 1260fps impact and very expanded but still not fragmenting at 2000fps! Thats an impressive expansion envelope, will handle all my shooting from low power to high. I wont be trying to get 2000fps and Im not shooting cape buffalo with it anyway.

[CowboyTutt]

Well, if you say so, but I would advise the XTP Mag if it were me. I had very good results using Lil Gun and CCI BR4 primers. My chronograph results were much more consistent then Hornady factory 454 ammo. Velocity out of my 20" Puma was right about 2000 fps and my best friend's 16" barrel was only about 50 fps less than that, which was very interesting. Jim T. is quietly one of the most expert authorities on the 454 as he was there in its early years of testing and proto-typing. He filled in some missing pieces of information that I had not found in 20 years of forums and conversations on what is my favorite handgun cartridge (OK, the 460 Smith is also a favorite but just too darn big most of the time). -Tutt

[mickbr]

Thanks Tutt, I saw this test on the 300 XTP-Mag,. Below was 1444fps impact, might even need another 100fps-150fps by the looks to really expand. Thats a water news print test btw if I recall, real game may provide better results. Will still kill fine no doubt, but yeah thats a tough bullet. Well I can try a few of each and see what the gun likes. run my own expansion tests through my setup,

[mickbr]

Actually I read warnings online quoting Hornady that the highest pressures in the 454 casull may cause dangerous pressure spikes with the thinner jackets and bases of the 250xtp and 300xt regular jackets. Due to some effect of base deformation, bulging and excess obturation.

Sscond hand info, some guy quoting hornady, but still I wonder if this is a valid concern with very high pressures. Going by the load data on Hodgon my target pressures would be more in the vicinity of 50-55KPSI and probably more the lower figure. Hodgon has data at this level for this bullet so Im 'assuming' its ok.

Ever heard of this effect Tutt?

[mickbr]

Just got word back from hornady themselves. They said the pressure issues related to soft jacketed bullets in revolvers when the bullet goes from the cylinder to the forcing cone. They said levers should be okay but said err on the side of caution as they do not have specific data for leverguns on this matter.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I sent my Ruger .454 SBH in to Bowen for some work. I shoot the Ruger Bisley frame guns better than I do the Freedom
Arms guns. Not sure why.

I’m sure I will load some mid range .454 ammo because I have a bit of brass and it will help me delineate cartridges that must never be fired in a SAA.

But I doubt that I’ll ever go over a 300 grain cast bullet at 1200 or so.

I am looking forward to seeing your experiments though.

[earlmck]

Ya know mickbr, those fellows loading for revolvers have to have a powerful crimp to keep the bullet from jumping the crimp in the revolver and locking up the cylinder. Your Rossi lever has no such issues. You have got a bunch of poor advice from the revolver guys. Use just enough "crimp" to straighten out the bell and let 'er rip. Yeah, you wasted a little money on the extra crimp die.

[JFE]

Congrats on your new purchase.

I have a Freedom Arms 454 and really had to use a Redding profile crimp die as a roll crimped shell wouldn’t chamber in the revolver’s cylinder. Tolerances are very tight in FA revolvers. You may not have an issue in a rifle.

A bullet that has a hard core and is very accurate is Sierra’s 300gr JFP. I use a few cast designs that work well but most are SWC styles and these may not feed well in a levergun.

Be careful with the overall length in the rifle. A lot of the heavier cast bullet moulds are designed for revolvers.

[mickbr]

Ya know mickbr, those fellows loading for revolvers have to have a powerful crimp to keep the bullet from jumping the crimp in the revolver and locking up the cylinder. Your Rossi lever has no such issues. You have got a bunch of poor advice from the revolver guys. Use just enough "crimp" to straighten out the bell and let 'er rip. Yeah, you wasted a little money on the extra crimp die.

Thanks earlmck had a feeling this was the case. I actually ordered a regular factory crimp die too. I will probably just use that

[mickbr]

Congrats on your new purchase.

I have a Freedom Arms 454 and really had to use a Redding profile crimp die as a roll crimped shell wouldn’t chamber in the revolver’s cylinder. Tolerances are very tight in FA revolvers. You may not have an issue in a rifle.

A bullet that has a hard core and is very accurate is Sierra’s 300gr JFP. I use a few cast designs that work well but most are SWC styles and these may not feed well in a levergun.

Be careful with the overall length in the rifle. A lot of the heavier cast bullet moulds are designed for revolvers.

Thanks JFE

[mickbr]

Fellas any suggestions on a heavy wide meplat cast that will still function through a lever. I was thinking of 340grains maximum, and as flat as might still feed

[Grizz]

Fellas any suggestions on a heavy wide meplat cast that will still function through a lever. I was thinking of 340grains maximum, and as flat as might still feed

in my levers a truncated cone feeds better than a rounded ogive, a 460 rounded ogive .458 bullet is more difficult to feed into a Miroku Browning 1886. But Marshall's TC heavies feed fine in all the rifles i'v shot them from. . . the chamber-filling handgun bullets might not feed as well, idk.

suggest asking for a sample pack from a bullet caster and see how your gun likes them

[JFE]

in my levers a truncated cone feeds better than a rounded ogive, a 460 rounded ogive .458 bullet is more difficult to feed into a Miroku Browning 1886. But Marshall's TC heavies feed fine in all the rifles i'v shot them from. . . the chamber-filling handgun bullets might not feed as well, idk.

I have a couple of Miroku 1886 rifles and those I’ve checked have no throat and have a relatively narrow barrel diameter. They slug 0.457” and bullets that fit Marlins (wider barrel diameter) have difficulty chambering in the Miroku rifles. Bullets with wide, long front drive bands can be a problem. A Lee FCD is your friend.

[JFE]

Years ago I intended to buy a Rossi in 454 but just never got around to it. At the time I wanted a heavyweight mould for my FA83 pistol and wanted to use it in the levergun. I contacted Veral Smith and he talked me into having two heavyweights moulds made, a WFN style for the pistol and a LFN style for the rifle. The pistol has quite a short cylinder and the rifle allowed a slightly longer LOA, according to Veral. Both moulds drop bullets around 350-360gr and accept a GC.

I trialled the WFN bullet in my pistol but I found it difficult to control due to heavy recoil in a relatively light pistol. In the end I settled on a different bullet altogether for my heavy, a Saeco 300gr SWC.

For those not aware, Veral Smith passed away a couple of months ago. RIP Veral. He had encyclopaedic knowledge of cast bullet designs and bullet lubes.

If you are in Australia, once my hand heals from an op I had last week, I can dig out the suitable moulds I have and cast some up for you to try in your rifle.

[mickbr]

Was just thinking re WFN functioning in a lever action. My other Rossis which included 357 and 44mag cycled JSP bullets seated backwards, just for a function test. Thats a calibre wide meplat. Not sure what the issue would be with a 454 WFN therefore. Maybe the issue is it would bang the edge of the WFN meplat up and damage the bullet? well when I get my dies I will see what it likes anyway.

[JFE]

Something I forgot to ask fellas. Whats the verdict on small rifle versus small rifle magnum primers. As mentioned Im using N110 so not as heavy as H110. Should a small rifle primer set that off? I have a lot from 223 use, would be good. But will buy magnum if I have to

SR Magnum primers have a thicker cup and provide an extra safety margin against pierced primers. For heavy, high pressure loads they should be used. Eg in CCI the cup thickness difference in SR primers is substantial:

Cup thickness

CCI400: 0.020”
CCI450: 0.025”

In my revolver I use a lot of low pressure loads and mostly use regular SR primers.

[mickbr]

Have since learned that most reloading data, in fact all I can find, Hoddgon, Vihtavouri, Alliant, ADI, barnes etc all specify small rifle, not magnum.

[High Desert Hunter]

For years I used the NOE 350 in my FA 454, I doubt it has cast a bullet in 7 or 8 years now. I still shoot my FA, but mostly with the 45-270SAA bullet over Unique or Longshot, and 300-340s at 1200ish. For me the FA is my most comfortable large revolver to shoot, next would be the Bisley 480 with 385s at 1100. I use the Redding profile crimp die, Liked it so much I bought one in 44 Magnum, and it gets used a lot now that I have found a bullet my Ruger/Marlin likes. I have found the 454 to be a very versatile cartridge, even my powder puff loads with 330-340 grain loads are accurate despite being told they wouldn't stabilize in the 454s slow twist. Additionally, even when I lived in interior Alaska, I never had so much as a hangfire with the "problematic" small rifle primers I had again been warned out. H110, 300-MP, and 296 were my choices for top end loads over the years, should try this AA 11FS I'm using in the 44 loads some time. Much like the 45 2.1", I have found that increased velocity only really serves to flatten the arc somewhat, and it can have a negative effect on my accuracy after a few cylinders full of heavy loads. Hope you enjoy your Rossi!

Dave