HOT DOG 338 Marlin Express for 2009

[BenT]

Just seen on Guns and Ammo TV 200 grain at 2600 fps. Based on 376 styer cartridge.

[slimster]

What platform? I don't think Marlin makes any leverguns with an action long enough to handle the 376 Steyr cartridge.

[O.S.O.K.]

That does seem odd - unless they shortened it and added a rim. They'd of done better to just use the .356 Winchester necked down IMHO.

The .356 gets 2600 fps with a 200 grain bullet...

[BenT]

From what they said was that case cut down to fit in the 336 levergun.

That's better balistics than the 348 with 200 grain. Even with hand loading I would think you could at least equel the 348.

I like this because I wanted a 1886 in 33 Win , so this should be able to scratch the 33 caliber itch in a levergun. Plus you can shoot cast bullets . I'm not sure if anyone still makes 33 caliber moulds . But I'm sure Ranch Dog will get around to it.

[BenT]

O.S.O.K. your a wildman

What powder are you using to get 2600 fps out of your 356. ?

The most I got was 2400fps using H4895 and that was a max load.

[Mike D.]

I can't get anywhere near 2600 with my .33 Winchesters. 2470 is about max velocity in the old cartridge, and that is using the Hornady 200 FP ahead of 47.2 grs IMR4064. Is there any powder that will give increased velocity with no raise in pressure? I tried IMR 3031 and didn't like the sticky extraction with the old load of 42 grains.

[O.S.O.K.]

BenT:

Well, I was figuring the same barrel length as the XTR's - 24" for the .356 Winchester. That'll give you 75-100 fps more velocity in and of itself over a 20" barrel rifle (that's what you'r using no?). Hornady and Marlin really use the statistics to their advantage and don't stress things like barrel length... just marketing I guess. They do that with their .308 Marlin and 30-30 LR loads too. Their suposedly super powder really only delivers maybe 50 fps more than the most efficient handloads that are out there for the same barrel length. Look in the load manuals - and add 100 fps for the extra 4" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

49 grains of IMR 4064 is a max load that gives 2500 fps in a 20" barrel .356 Win.

50 grains of Reloader #12 beats that, and 50 grains of Norma 201 will reach 2600 fps - its the most efficient in this cartridge.

Published .356 data is really limited. If you look at it compared to .358 Winchester, and use the .358 Winchester data which is far more extensive - only backing off for the thicker brass of the 356, you get a lot more data. You just figure the percentage drop and then back off from there 10% for starting loads - watching velocity as you test.

PLEASE DO NOT USE MY LISTED DATA WITHOUT BACKING OFF FOR STARTING LOADS.

[6pt-sika]

Hmmm , thats kinda strange !

I asked one of the Marlin engineers last year about making a 338 Marlin Express and he said the pressures would be to great or so they thought !

[TedH]

Hmmm. Why .338 cal.? There would be a better selection of .35 cal bullets for the handloader. I guess I answered my own question there, you'll have to buy their high dollar ammo too.

[BenT]

O.S.O.K. Your right as far as backing off 10% with 358 loading data , but alot it has to do with the fact that bullets need to be seated deeper in the 356 to meet AOL. Now that I think about it . It was a 220 gr that was 2400 fps and that seemed alittle too stought for me. Right now I loaded up some 180 gr fn with H322 to test out.

I'm curious of the case dimensions are for the 338 MX . Since the 376 steyr has a base of .506 which is bigger than a 307 Win at .470.

[shawn_c992001]

Now this cartridge I'm thinking of getting.

[6pt-sika]

Now this cartridge I'm thinking of getting.

Shoot there isn;t any thinking about it !

I'll be in the shop tommorrow telling my local guy to start bending the ear of his distributers for one in each version I hope they bring it out in

And even though I will not shoot cast in the two 308 Marlin Express rifles I have now I may very well shoot some cast bullets in the 338 Marlin Express if I can talk someone into desiging a cmould or two of say 340-185GC and possibly 340-225GC

[Blaster]

"HOT DOG" indeed. Now maybe the Marlin 336ER/356 Winchester will take a back seat to the new 338 Marlin Express reducing the demand thereby lowering the price. However, that still does not change the fact that only 2,441 336ER's were ever produced. There are fewer than that in circulation due to normal damage/loss and the fact that an unknown number were re-barreled to Mr. Lane Simpson's excellent performing 7mm Shooting Times Easterner.

Here are a couple of recent topics that I'll touch on:

1. I can safely get 2617 fps with a 200 gr Hornady Spire Point in a 20" barreled Browning BLR'81 chambered in 358 Winchester. However, I could never duplicate it in my "previously owned" (sad to say) Marlin 336ER in 356 Winchester without signs of excessive pressure. Maxed out at 2500 fps.

BTW, the case capacity in grains of water for the .358 Winchester is 57.191 and 56.394 for the .356 Winchester for a difference of .797 grains. Here's something else that will come as a surprise. The case wall thickness at the shoulder and at the base of the 356 are actually slightly less than that of the .358. NO WAY YOU SAY. That's what I said too, but it's almost a trick question. The case wall thickness of the 358 at the BASE is .034", and .033" for the 356. The thickness at the shoulder of the 358 is .017", and 016" for the 356.

That's all well and good but here are the critical numbers. The WEB wall thickness of the 358 is .200", and .240" for the 356. This is necessary to contain 52,000 CUP that the 356 case is potentially exposed to. But the 358 also operates at a max of 52,000 CUP so what's the deal. The 358 locks up at the front of the action in bolt action and BLR'81 rifles. The 356 is chambered in the Marlin and Winchester Big Bore lever action rifles that lock up at the rear of the action and they are springy. This exposes the web of the case to high unsupported pressure.

2. The 338 Marlin Express was designed around a shortened 376 Steyr case. Three years ago I designed an almost identical lever action round based on the 376 Steyr case and simply called it the "376 Steyr Short". Used in a re-chambered Marlin M375 in 375 Winchester, it is a .375 caliber round that uses the Stery case, shortened .330" to 2.020" and firing a Hornady 220 grain Flat Nose Soft Point bullet at 2600 fps with an energy of 3303 ft.lbs. OAL is 2.560" which is the max that will function in a Marlin or a Winchester lever action rifle without modifications. The rim of the 375 Winchester and that of the 376 Steyr are almost identical. Rate of twist is 1-in-12 and the case holds 65 grains of water. Click here http://www.ammoguide.com/?catid=328 .

3. One final thought on the previously mentioned 356 Winchester case necked down to .338. It has already been thought-of and is called the 338 GEF. It has a minimum body taper, a 40-degree shoulder and dies are available at RCBS.

Sorry about being so long-winded but I love this stuff.

[tman]

hope mosseberg chambers it in their 94 copy.

[BenT]

Blaster , thats a pretty big step up in case capacity using the 376 case. That has to generate some high pressures. But I bet your marlin is still holding up. I will be curious about the case capacity in this 338 MX round. From the looks of it on Guns and ammo , the case is quite short and the bullet has a long ogive. I was thinking about a 338 wildcat using 356 brass and running it throught a 338 federal die, but lack of bullet selection killed that thought.

[J Miller]

Wow, speaking of marketing hype. Bigger is better, you gotta buy our speciality ammo, shoot longer, farther ........ bla bla bla bla bla ....... Buy one in 35 Remington, a proven, available, easily loaded round.

I think somebody could sell you guys a bag of sand if you lived in the Sahara desert.

JMHO


Joe

[dsmith512]

I think somebody could sell you guys a bag of sand if you lived in the Sahara desert.

This just in Egypt plans to 'green' Sahara desert.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Egy ... 81422.html

You guys better hurry and buy that bag of sand before the Sahara runs out.

[BenT]

Joe , I was looking at getting something in 338 federal. So now I'll be looking at the 338MX. It's like any other hobby ,get tired of the same stuff so you go get something different and that doesn't mean better. I'm in the process of getting rid of some guns I don't shoot much for something different. Time to churn some guns. But I'm still keeping the old standard caliber leverguns. Plus right now the only bullet you can use for tube mag would be a 250 gr rn. So if there isn't any choices in bullets this will be a no go for me. I'll keep my eyes open for some hornady 200 gr fn .

[6pt-sika]

Wow, speaking of marketing hype. Bigger is better, you gotta buy our speciality ammo, shoot longer, farther ........ bla bla bla bla bla ....... Buy one in 35 Remington, a proven, available, easily loaded round.

I think somebody could sell you guys a bag of sand if you lived in the Sahara desert.

JMHO


Joe

You know what , if you don't care for the cartridge or the Leverevolution bullets thats just fine with me !

[WCF3030]

Sounds good, I hope they sell a million of them, and stay in buissness so my grandkids can buy a brand new, deep blued, walnut stocked Marlin one day.

[Blaine]

One of Joe's cats must have put a big, sticky hairball in his slipper this morning

I could almost see trading my Whelen on one of these if reloads without the WonderWhopper bullets are strong enough.

[WCF3030]

One of Joe's cats must have put a big, sticky hairball in his slipper this morning

I could almost see trading my Whelen on one of these if reloads without the WonderWhopper bullets are strong enough.

[tman]

guess i'm just an idiot cause i own a 94 bb in .356wcf. already. putting 348 wcf power in a model 94 platform has always had a strong appeal for me. it should handle all na.game out to 200yrds, in a light ,fast handling package. if the new .338 marlin can achieve this, say in the mosseberg package, with CURRENTLY AVAILABLE FACTORY AMMUNITION, then count me in with the sand buyers, anyday.

[Henry McCann]

Joe, if we all followed you, no one would own anything more than a bolt action in .30-06. But, it sure is fun to own and shoot various rifle actions and calibers.

I've never been a .338 fan in spite of it's many virtues, but for many this will probably be a great caliber.

[hfcable]

Wow, speaking of marketing hype. Bigger is better, you gotta buy our speciality ammo, shoot longer, farther ........ bla bla bla bla bla ....... Buy one in 35 Remington, a proven, available, easily loaded round.

I think somebody could sell you guys a bag of sand if you lived in the Sahara desert.

JMHO


Joe

Joe, it depends on the ballistics of the sand, and whether the bags are reloadable,
and also are camo and/or traditional bags availabe? and i personnelly would like high strength kevlar bags that are very light but can be reloadable indefinitely, worth a premium to me , and would like the option of at least some high capacity bags......Hey, when can i order this sand, and let me know on the colors available?!

[El Chivo]

Sounds good, I hope they sell a million of them, and stay in buissness so my grandkids can buy a brand new, deep blued, walnut stocked Marlin one day.

Yeah, except they're probably going to offer them in that stainless/laminated combination. I don't know why that's popular with hunters, it's UGLY. I'm waiting for them to produce the XLR in black/blue like everything else they make. I'll even take it in 22" with the half mag. But I don't want the stainless/laminated.

Sorry for the rant.