.44/40 and unburnt powder problem

[Carlsen Highway]

Guys, I have a brand new Rossi '92 in .44/40. I have run some reloads through, and with 24.0 grains of H4227 and a hornady 200g XTP bullet I am getting unburnt powder granules through the bore and through the action as well.

I had thought that this kind of thing would be related to having low pressure / light loads. I am inclined to up the pressure by loading more powder in and giving it a real good crimp....Nick Harveys book gives max loads of H4227 at 28.0 grains. Other books give it 24.0 grains.

Forgetting the anomolies between the differetn books for the moment...

What is this unburnt powder everywhere telling me? Am I on the right track trying to up the pressure?

(I am using an Australian made powder AR2205 which is equivilent to H4227 some say its the same powder repackaged but I dont know that for a fact. )

[Griff]

I don't load for the .44WCF, hopefully Lefty Dude, Driftwood Johnson or another .4WCF afficionado will chime in with exact data, but... with certain powders in my .45 Colt, and even .38Spl., I've found the same thing when using lighter than normal loads for the powder, and a slight increase in pressure (depending on load, upping the charge) or sometimes just getting a heavier crimp has alleviated the problem. (Only a problem in the wastefulness of powder and maybe extra cleaning, tho'. Although, I've found switching powders is usually the best solution, as some will simply leave a few grains in the barrel. The ones found in the action tho', I suspect are akin to the claimed extra fouling BP gives in .45 Colt leverguns. In fact, what I believe happens, is that after firing (expecially in CAS matches where speed is a good thing), the fouling/smoke seen coming from the lifter area is the residual being sucked out of the case as the case is cycled out of the chamber and ejected; for in truth, I've seen the same thing in videos of .44WCFs being shot in CAS matches. Maybe the .45Colt simply produces MORE, not something I've ever attempted to quantify.

Good luck, and as I said, maybe one of the .44-40 guys will speak up.

[jdad]

I used 2400 without any problems other than it leaving a messy residue.

[Lefty Dude]

You need a tighter bullet crimp. Try a double crimp. Use a tight roll crimp and then follow up on top of the roll a Lee factory crimp. The 44-40 necks are thin and for a slow burning powder you need all the steam before the release as possible. In my 92 Rossi I shoot a 240 gr. lead SWC for the long range CAS side match events. The 240 gr. I use for the shots beyond 200 yards, I double crimp the 240.

In my estimation Alliant 2400 powder would be a better choice, or Reloader 7 which is close to the burning rate of the powder you are using.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Most of my 44-40 loads are full of Black Powder. You want to talk about fouling? However, in my foolish early years of reloading I used to load the cartridge with Unique. Frankly, there was always some unburnt grains of Unique left in the bore and the action too. I never worried about it too much, a few unburnt grains of Unique never affected accuracy or managed to jam up the action.

I have no experience with the powder you are using, but personally I think a few grains of powder left in the bore, either burnt or unburnt, are not a problem.

As far as a firmer or tighter crimp and 44-40, there is only so much you can do. The thinness of the brass at the case mouth, on the order of .007 or so, does not lend it self very well to 'tight' crimps. With a round like 45 Colt, the much thicker brass (around .012 or so) can be formed into a nice roll crimp that can really 'bite' directly into the lead, getting a real tight crimp. The thin brass of 44-40 tends to smoosh over, more or less following the geometry of the underlying crimp groove. Even with the dreaded Lee Factory Crimp, that has been my experience. There is only so much you can do, that thin brass just kind of smooshes over and squeezes the bullet, but it will never really bite into the lead and hold it like 45 Colt will.

Whatever you do, be sure to not exceed max loads published by the powder manufacturer. The Rossi '92 is a very strong gun, but 44-40 brass is kind of thin, and I would start worrying about separating head cases before I would worry about the strength of the '92 action. You may find you need to live with a little bit of unburnt powder.

You could always try Black Powder if you want to see some real fouling.

[Doc Hudson]

I don't reload for the .44-40 WCF either, but I shoot lots of Unique. Lots of folks complain that Unique is as messy as blackpowder and that they have unburned powder. I've never had that problem. Then again, I am a firm believer in heavy roll crimps, I had a bullet to jump crimp once in early days of reloading, so I make sure that will never happen again.

I don't know if .44-40 brass will hold up under a heavy roll crimp, but I suggest you give it a try before you bump up your powder charge.

[O.S.O.K.]

I get that with XMP5744 and IMR4891 too in my 95 Marlin/45-70. It means that the pressure spike is dropping before all of the powder is combusted and so, you get some left in the bore. If you are getting good accuracy and consistent velocity, it's not really a bad thing - but I have to admit it bugs me too.

Try a stronger crimp and maybe a little larger bullet - the bullet (are these cast?) may not be sealing the bore well enough.

If none of this helps, just go to a faster burning powder.

ETA - see the XTP bullet now... try a larger hard cast bullet (gas checked design is my pick).

[Nath]

Woulds apart but I am using H4227 in Hornet and I use a case full crush by the bullet and still get the unburt kernals!
Oddly IIRC in a reduced 243 load and a 60grn bullet years ago and something like 16grns of H4227 I did not get the unburnt kernals!

Perhaps it's just a bore volume thing in your case? How about a hotter primer?
We need imput from KirkD.

Nath.

[Carlsen Highway]

I would live with it, but I think the amount of unburnt granules in the action is ...excessive. And also, how can I go looking for accuracy in the load when the cartridge is burning a different amount of powder each time?
I will try a stronger crimp and load up a little higher and see if it gets less...

[Grizzly Adams]

I shoot 44-40 a bunch, and have found that W231 or Titegroup work better than anything else I have tried, including 2400 and 4227. Both shot very clean, and leave zero unburned powder. Titegroup is my favorite of the two.

[1886]

Unburned powder with 4227 is very common. Find a load you like and forget about it. It is not an issue. Regards. 1886.

[Lefty Dude]

You did not indicate whether you are using lead or Jacketed bullets & have you sluged the bore of the 92 ?

If you are using 44-40 jacketed bullets, they will be Winchester's .426 or Remington's .427 200 gr. soft point. The Rossi's bore groove for a 44-40 is .429" at least that is what my IAC 65SCR slugges out to be. In this case you will need to shoot 44 spec/mag bullets, they are made in .429", .430", .431". If you are shooting a .426" bullet in a .429" bore you will not have a good seal, thus blow by and unburned powder.

I use Unique in my 44-40 jacketed & Lead and it burns clean for both.

[Carlsen Highway]

Sorry its jacketed .44 mag bullet 200grain Hornady hollwpoint. Rifle has the .429 larger bore size.

1886 it just seems rather a lot of it...
I will go and shoot it again, try a better crimp maybe and see whats remaining...maybe I am overreacting.

[1886]

Sorry its jacketed .44 mag bullet 200grain Hornady hollwpoint. Rifle has the .429 larger bore size.

1886 it just seems rather a lot of it...
I will go and shoot it again, try a better crimp maybe and see whats remaining...maybe I am overreacting.

I know what you mean but it just seems to be the norm with 4227. I have tried increased neck tension, increased crimp, hotter primers, more powder, etc., etc., but.....As I said before if you want to use 4227 find a load you like and do not sweat it. The suggestions to read Paco's articles is a goodie. Take Care, 1886.

[Lefty Dude]

Sorry to say not all 44-40's are created equal, wish they were it would solve lots of headaches with many 44 shooters who like the caliber.

[AndyM]

I shoot 44-40 a bunch, and have found that W231 or Titegroup work better than anything else I have tried, including 2400 and 4227. Both shot very clean, and leave zero unburned powder. Titegroup is my favorite of the two.

I have also used Titegroup with good success. I use this powder for both 44WCF and 45 LC. same powder charge for both.

[blackhawk44]

Don't know if they are available to you but I think Blue Dot or Power Pistol may be more to your liking. Get a copy of Legacy of Lever Guns from Wolfe Pub.

[jnyork]

+1 for the Blue Dot, more accurate in my 44-40 AND my .44 Mag than any other powder, and I've tried them all!!

[Driftwood Johnson]

And also, how can I go looking for accuracy in the load when the cartridge is burning a different amount of powder each time?

Howdy Again

How do you really know you are burning a different amount of powder each time? I would suspect the opposite, you are burning the same amount of powder each time, however different amounts of unburnt grains are being blown out of the barrel. In any case, the proof is in your targets. How good are your groups?

If your barrel is truly .429 you should be using .429 jacketed bullets or .430 lead bullets. Have you slugged the bore to be sure what your rifling diameter is?

Your Rossi '92 is a strong gun, much stronger than a toggle link rifle like a '73. So you should be fine with adding some powder if you want to. But I would still stay within the limits of the Max for whatever the manuals say for that bullet and that powder.

Like I said before, I have shot a lot of 44-40 over the years. Mostly with Black Powder but also with Unique. I always had some unburnt flakes left over with Unique. I was shooting them in an original Winchester '92 made in 1894 and an original Marlin 1894 made in 1895. So I kept my loads mild, not wanting to stress the old steel. Even with mild loads, and some unburnt grains of Unique left behind, both of those rifles shot more accurately than me.