44-40 2025 Targets Thread

[Bryan Austin]

The new year brings on a new chapter for the 44-40 paper punching game.

I was able to shoot three targets, 5 shots each from 50 yards.

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Nothing special, I was having fun shooting while you guys were at work :p

(all target green shot placement numbers are not in actual fired sequence)

Target 1
Score - 338,
1.560" group

I am trying to learn to hold everything in the same place, and with the same pressures...you know...applied to the forearm, shoulder, down. I try to have the rifle sitting on target free rest, then hold aft pressure into my shoulder, and down on the stock. I try to hold steady down pressure on the forearm. I have no idea if I am doing this correctly. Never did learn to shoot consistent.

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Target 2
Score - 325,
1.663" group

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Target 3
Score - 316,
1.872" group

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Targets 1, 2 and 3 overlay (all 15 shots)
Overall score - 361,
2" group

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[Walt]

Thanks for the pictures, Bryan.

Nice setup, beautiful gun and nice shooting.

[Steve in MO]

That's good shootin'!

[Ysabel Kid]

That's an interesting shooting rest you made. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would be interested in the details.

Great shooting!

[black river smith]

Bryan,
Nice shooting and final results. But, I have have a few questions for you, because I am having a dilemma finding a smokeless crimp-able 44/40 bullet. So, what bullet are you using for your testing, mold # and what is the final weight and what alloy are you casting with?

I shot an original Winchester mold bullet with BP for a years. Then had to switch to smokeless and started back with the RCBS 44-200 FN mold, but do not like the looks. Then I got ahold of the Accurate 43-215-C by John K, but my pure lead pours a 224 grain bullet from the mold. Then I put my hands on an NEI 427-200 4 cavity mold but that one also drops a 218-220 grain bullet. The only other one I have is the Lyman 427098 but it does not have a crimp groove.

So, that is the reason for the questions above.
Thanks, BRS

[Bill in Oregon]

Time well spent Bryan. Thanks for sharing your setup and those targets.

[Bryan Austin]

Thanks guys!!

That's an interesting shooting rest you made. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would be interested in the details.

Great shooting!

Picked up the idea from Dennis Pritchard, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2p0wLgZ34k

Bryan,
Nice shooting and final results. But, I have have a few questions for you, because I am having a dilemma finding a smokeless crimp-able 44/40 bullet. So, what bullet are you using for your testing, mold # and what is the final weight and what alloy are you casting with?

I shot an original Winchester mold bullet with BP for a years. Then had to switch to smokeless and started back with the RCBS 44-200 FN mold, but do not like the looks. Then I got ahold of the Accurate 43-215-C by John K, but my pure lead pours a 224 grain bullet from the mold. Then I put my hands on an NEI 427-200 4 cavity mold but that one also drops a 218-220 grain bullet. The only other one I have is the Lyman 427098 but it does not have a crimp groove.

So, that is the reason for the questions above.
Thanks, BRS

I got Accurate Molds to to modify John Korts 43-215 by removing the crimp groove, and reverting back to small lube grooves. Thus the 43-214A was made...and is what I use. I also cast basic wheel weight lead. All my lead is scrap lead and I do not add anything with it. So the weight varies from 205gr to 216gr. Most of the time they cast to .429" and I resize to .428" for my .429" bores. I still use black powder lube...no particular reason except it works fine, so I have no reason to change yet.

I use the RCBS 44-40 resizing die, Lyman 44 Mag expansion die, RCBS seating die (no crimp), and the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp die.

I also use 25.6gr of Reloder 7 smokeless rifle powder. Most folks don't like the left over grain "skeletons", but the OVERALL accuracy is 100% worth it.

So what do I mean by "OVERALL" accuracy? As you can see from the hit placements from the three targets, each 5 group shot placement is slightly "irregular"...but overall, 2" at 50 yards. Some folks brag about a 1", 3 shout group...but I guarantee you that is not consistent results. This is why I always advocate 5 shot groups minimum...and count the one flier. Look at my three targets, remove that one "flyer" from each group and whalah, smaller groups! However, they are not fliers at all...they are simply "irregular" hits.

It takes a lot of ammo, but try shooting three targets, 5 shots each, then overlaying them all together, as I did, to get your overall best group...and more importantly...signifies your true POA. Then....shoot 15 to 20 consecutive shots at one target and you may notice very similar results. Better yet, shoot one shot on 15 targets and combine them all...basically the same overall results! It is the nature of the ole beast!

[Bryan Austin]

Can't wait to try the new truck bed bench...
sorry about all the background packrat stuff...

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[AJMD429]

.
Beautiful place to shoot. Even if I missed all the bullseyes, I think I'd have a good time just taking in the countryside...!

Sure is fun taking an old cartridge, or old gun, and shooting it to see what it can do. Most of them can do just about anything needing done from a practical standpoint.

[Bill in Oregon]

Bryan, thanks for those load details. Have you shot the Accurate 214-A with black powder? Do the smaller lube grooves hold enough lube to keep fouling under control? I am a bit surprised you are sizing to .428 in a .429 bore, which seems opposite the traditional wisdom, but cannot argue with your results.
Love your truck bed shooting table!

[Bryan Austin]

Bryan, thanks for those load details. Have you shot the Accurate 214-A with black powder? Do the smaller lube grooves hold enough lube to keep fouling under control? I am a bit surprised you are sizing to .428 in a .429 bore, which seems opposite the traditional wisdom, but cannot argue with your results.
Love your truck bed shooting table!

Original small lube grooves have plenty of lube, unless you are going to shoot a lot of ammo. Apparently the lube used back in 1875 was good for over 40 consecutive shots....better quality I guess.

I never did try the 43-214A with BP.

There is a bit of a myth when it comes to bullet diameter. The 44-40 originally used pure lead, which was soft. It formed to nearly any 44-40 bore size with ease with the actual higher pressures used at the time. Even when the pressures lowered to 13,000cup, there was plenty to do the same.

The problem with bore size is due to today's standards, and using hard lead that will not expand into the grooves do to mouse fanny burp pressures...or creating pressure spikes by trying to shoot over sized hard lead or jacketed bullets in smaller bores.


Just shot this 50 yard, 10 shot group this morning, below freezing temps

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for a 44-40, the elevation and windage is perfect.

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This next target is 100 yards......the photo is for AJMD429 Love this 400 acre woods...only 2 flat acres to shoot in. The rest is steep terrain where I hunt. The creek is behind the bard, steep slopes on both sides. The 2 acres, narrow but 300 yards long, was cut out many years ago....and I am the only one (hunter) in 35 years the land owner has allowed access.

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[Bill in Oregon]

Bryan, thanks for the reply. From what I can tell looking at Uberti 73 descriptions on the Dixie Gun Works website, their Ubertis are 1:36 with .424 lands and .432 grooves (.004 deep rifling). What you are saying about soft bullets bumping up to seal the bore comes as something of a comfort considering the issues with this particular chambering. My copy of Venturino’s “ Shooting Leverguns of the Old West” is in storage right now, darn it, but I have your swell Web site to ponder.

[Bryan Austin]

, their Ubertis are 1:36 with .424 lands and .432 grooves (.004 deep rifling).

wow, never herd of an Uberti being that big. All my 44-40 bores are 429, 1/36.
1889 Marlin made in 1892, Marlin 1894CB and the Uberti Winchester 73', imported by Cabelas.

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[Bill in Oregon]

Bryan, I don't know what to tell you, although I trust Cimarron's chart more than I do the Dixie descriptions.

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bore-groove-twist

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/pag ... lica+Rifle

[Bryan Austin]

Here is the 100 yard target. This is the first 100 yard target with the scope dialed for 50 yard zero (2025-1-5-1).

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An obvious 1" inch correction is needed to lower, and center the group to the bullseye area.

Target 2025-1-5-2, shots 1 thru 5 and 6 thru 10.

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The POA was held at +4.5". The very first shot is just below and right of the POA, and the second shot just left of the 1" square. The first 5 shots placed inside 4" at 100 yards...

Shots 1-5
Group - 3.838" inches
Elev. - +1.40"
Wind. - 0.51"

...but before we change the POA,[/b] lets fire off 5 more... 6-10,
Group - 3.135" inches
Elev. +0.73"
Wind. - -1.13"

When we combine the two groups...

Shots 1-10
Group - 4.464"
MOA - 4.263
Elev. - +1.07"
Wind. - -0.82"

...the 10 shot group gives us a better POA than a three shot, or even a five shot group. One thing to consider is, the POA for that first hunting shot!!!!!! Sometimes it is best to fire 5 or 10 shots, each shot from a cold barrel. In general, any one of those 10 shots could be the placement of any first shot while hunting. This is why I shoot for the double lung shot, rather than a heart shot with the 44-40 cartridge.

[Drawdown]

Good stuff Bryan as always! I've never tried a 73 & 44-40 but you sure give me the itch! I'll use 3 shot groups working up to a final load, maybe confirm it with 5. But when I'm where I want it to be it's 7 or 10 shot groups. And I use a 1st shot target from then on for proven hunting loads for my 270Win n 30-06 separated for only that one first shot, it usually being a Clean Bore, but record clean or dirty and any other circumstances! Then usually when I switch to my other target shots 2-7 or 10, I let bore cool 3-5 minutes in between. My Tikka 30-06, it doesn't make much difference. But my Remington 270Win, makes a lot after a quick 2nd but for sure 3rd! The 150gr loads, without cooling, by 3rd shot they walk usually left, and get wider if it isn't allowed to cool. They'll be mostly good on elevation, but wider left the hotter it gets! It's that Remington bump of raised wood near end of forestock that obviously causes it. I've thought of sanding it out and bedding & floating it, but I know it now and I've yet to ever need more than 2 shots in a hunting rifle.

[Bryan Austin]

I only use three shots for my 30-06. The 10 shots is just for the 44-40. If ya can't get tight groups in the 06' with three shots, chunk it in the trash...LOL

[Bryan Austin]

What I mean is, is that the old "black powder pistol sized cartridges" can be a bit different than modern high powered stuff. Another thing is indeed the scope. I feel if most shooters removed their scopes from their high powered rifles....those groups too might open up a tad.

Sometimes we have to compare apples with apples, even if some apples are red and others are green!

Thus;

Scope on both...

44-40 - 5 to 10 shots
30-06 - 3 shots
...for an honest actual POA

[Drawdown]

I understand exactly what you mean, I've done lot more iron sight shooting all my life. When I shoot irons past 60yds out near 100yds, I look at best 4 outta 5 or 6 out 7, because I'm very seldom consistently perfect with them. Past 100yds I look at best 3 of 5 or 5 out 7, this pattern holds usually true for me. And 5 is a plenty with a good scoped rifle, but I enjoy the 7 and sometimes 10shot groups for the fun n challenge. But a rifle you're not sure of yet, 3 shot groups can be deceiving, I'll prove a new rifle or load with 7 shots before I'm satisfied!
Then I compare my 1st shot target to the group target to see if the 1st is true to the group. With the 30-06, it's never any different, clean n cold or dirty. But at first I struggled with my 270, I was convinced I had to have a dirty bore. But I found by checking with a first shot target a cold n clean bore was most always my best shot, POA being true!
My 06 is pillar bedded length of the stock, it's true any way you want to shoot it.

[Bryan Austin]

That is a great explanation!

[Bryan Austin]

I did want to comment on the 43-214A bullet weights as cast in this last batch. Not being too particular, they weight anywhere from 215gr to 217gr....but mostly 217gr.

[Bryan Austin]

I decided to buy a subscription to Ballistic-X. It is actually kind of nice.

It takes your shots and places them on their own target.

Here is a PDF of the complete tool kit on the target

BallisticX-Report_2025-01-07.pdf

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[Bryan Austin]

I was sure hoping to shoot again today...maybe tomorrow!
Just around the curve to the right is the barn where I shoot.

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Just around the curve to the left is the pond where the first photo was taken!

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[black river smith]

I did want to comment on the 43-214A bullet weights as cast in this last batch. Not being too particular, they weight anywhere from 215gr to 217gr....but mostly 217gr.

Thanks for posting this info. You are making 'me' feel a little better about my 'new to me' NEI final bullet weights. They will be the next reloading project, starting in a few days, so we will see. Hope they function 'into and through' the Rossi 92 and the Uberti 1866 rifles.

[Bryan Austin]

I did want to comment on the 43-214A bullet weights as cast in this last batch. Not being too particular, they weight anywhere from 215gr to 217gr....but mostly 217gr.

Thanks for posting this info. You are making 'me' feel a little better about my 'new to me' NEI final bullet weights. They will be the next reloading project, starting in a few days, so we will see. Hope they function 'into and through' the Rossi 92 and the Uberti 1866 rifles.

yes sir, it depends on the "lead mix" (and maybe the temp) on how much they weigh when dropped from the mold. The mold was named (-214A) for wheel weight lead and should drop at 214gr. when using wheel weights. My last batch dropped at 217gr., so there is a bit more pure lead in the mix. I prefer softer lead.

[Bryan Austin]

Was a nice morning to shoot!

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[Bryan Austin]

Today's 10 shot group was a bit better. I was a bit more relaxed than the last time I shot.
Although I did shoot a buck in 2022 at -4 degrees with this load...I am calling 28ish degrees as my extreme temp. I really have no plans to shoot in temps much less than the 20's. The 10 shot group tightened back up to 3", and I will deal with the windage corrections next time. I got my elevation set for both 50 and 100 yards.

Zero at 50 yards
+3 3/4 at 100 yards

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[Bill in Oregon]

Bryan, I am being forced to have a hot toddy after just looking at that chilly shooting range. Nice shooting, especially under those circumstances!

[Bryan Austin]

Okay, just for kicks....this was actually my best ever 10 shot 100 yard group.

Shots 1-10 of the 40 shot group back in 2019

1.582" Group
1.511 MOA
-0.23 Elevation Offset
+1.26 Windage Offset
Score = 368
Mean Radius - .047"

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Yes, with the Uberti Winchester 73' and 6x Scope

[Bill in Oregon]

That's a very fine target indeed, Bryan. Accurate 214A and Re 7?

[JimT]

Good shootin'! And the photos are nice but that's about as close as I want to get to it anymore. I have become a "Fair Weather Shooter" at this stage of life. When I was young I shot in rain, snow, sleet, heat and wind. It didn't matter. Anymore ... well ...

[Bryan Austin]

Yes sir Bill!!

JimT,
yeap, the older I get I less cold and less heat. I am really beginning to hate the wind as well, regardless of the temp...LOL

[veeman]

So I gather that these loads should NOT be used in a Colt? Asking for a friend!

[Bryan Austin]

So I gather that these loads should NOT be used in a Colt? Asking for a friend!

According to my pressure test results, I will use this 25.5gr/217gr 43-214A load in my revolvers. But I can not say anyone else can.

What folks do not like about Reloder 7 is that it is a rifle powder....it leaves powder "skeletons" inside the bore and chamber as the case is removed. It can also leave them in the rifle action and revolver action. This in no way bothers me at all.

What I can tell you is that there is a published 23.5gr Reloder 7 44-40 load with a 240gr lead bullet published by Hercules, Aliant and Lee.

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[Bryan Austin]

Since I have not had time to shoot February's 100 yard target yet, here are 6 targets from yesteryear. 3 from 200 yards and 3 from 300 yards. 8 MOA sucks by today's standards, and yesteryears' for that matter, but how are your loads working for you at these longer distances?

The velocities are impressive for the 44-40 cartridge when used in the Marlin and the Uberti Winchester 73'

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Link: https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... -100-yards

[Bill in Oregon]

I'd hate to be a miscreant trying to dodge those slugs!
I just maybe might get a chance to shoot a 100-yard target with the .44 WCF before the month is out. No Reloder 7 to be had in this section, though. Think I have a few ounces of H-4198 stashed somewhere.

[Drawdown]

Today's standards aren't based on yesterday's rifles! I think everyone whose shot any old levergun cartridges at these ranges would say, easy minute of deer, most every shot, and some amazing velocities! Thanks!

[Bryan Austin]

exactly!!!

[AJMD429]

.
Just got back to this thread. I appreciate the 'extra' pictures of the scenery...

We need more threads like this.

Maybe this summer I can get some time to really work with one of my leverguns and post stuff; they are nice to have and look at, but way more fun to SHOOT...!

[Bryan Austin]

February is not being vary friendly this year

[Bryan Austin]

Back in 1876, bothers Thomas Stuart and Granville Stuart both used 1873' Winchester One of One Thousand rifles in competitions. Believing Thomas was the better shot, thus says the target, he lost to his brother due to two of his cartridges failing to go boom! Thomas scoring 60 and Granville scoring 62.

Thomas-vs-Granville-Stuart.jpg

Not fully understanding the target's actual size I dug a bit into the competition shooting, and thanks some some good folks, lead me to the 1870's target designs by the NRA from 1878. I took the dimensions, and the adjusted targets look much more realistic. More like what the hit sizes really would look like on the 6ft x 6ft Second Class 500 yard target.

T Stuart.jpg

G Stuart.jpg

Second Class Target to be used at all distances over 300 yards, to and including 600 yards.

Total target size is 6 feet by 6 feet

Bullseye - Inner black circle, 22" inches - 5 points
Center - First white circle, 38" inches - 4 points
Inner - Second white circle, 54" inches - 3 points
Outer - Third white circle, 70" inches - 2 points
Black - Outer black frame, 1" inch - 0 points

I have not been able to shoot 500 yard targets but I did take my 300 yard target and transfer it to one of the Third Class 4ft x 6ft targets. Added the frame due to the white background.

Third Class Target to be used at all distances up to and including 300 yards.

Adopted February 19th, 1878

Total target size is 4 feet by 6 feet
Bullseye - Inner black circle, 8" inches - 5 points
Center - First white circle, 26" inches - 4 points
Inner - Second white circle, 46" inches -3 points
Outer - Remainder of target - 2 points

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I can't wait to get back to the 300 yard targets and try the 15 shots and compare my scope shots to their peep sight skills...lol.

I really would like to know how much better their Winchesters were back then to the quality of the modern rifles.

For detailed information, check out this video. https://youtu.be/yoD2O4XKS7Q?si=tIZX5BiuKBqAzMMT

https://www.44-40.org/targets

[Bryan Austin]

February 100 yard target. Is it a flier or not?

First shot, cold shot, hit high left while the other 9 grouped nice at 2.3" at 100 yards.
With all ten shots, 5.4". After the tenth shot, windage was corrected for the March next month! However, on my way out I picked off a groundhog at 98 yards

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[Bill in Oregon]

I wish I could get work like that.

[Bryan Austin]

When the land owner is happy, I am happy

[Drawdown]

Good shooting and enjoy this thread! A groundhog at 100yd=deer at 200yds!

[Bryan Austin]

Made a few more targets. Nothing special, just more of the same...with some slight insight.

Target 2025-3-26 showed signs of opening up a bit with higher gusty winds. The part I like is the velocity at 41 yards

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Target 2025-4-3-2showed signs of tightening back up with calmer winds, while target 2025-4-3-3 opened back up with gusty winds.

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Target 2025-4-3-3, although this may not affect you pros out there, I have concluded that it does hinder my ability

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[.45colt]

Bryan , You are a national Treasure. Thank You.

[Bill in Oregon]

That second target is a beauty, Bryan.

[Bryan Austin]

Today I shot both a 50 yard and 100 yard target with the same shots. The 100 yard POA was set, but is not perfect since I was alone. The 50 yard target was then placed in front. The shot placements were marked after each shot, on both targets. Aside from trajectory, both targets are to show the group sizes for the same shots fired.

This is a preliminary test, and warrants a better try next time with a chronograph, better target placements and with zero gusting winds.
Generally the group size doubled at both 50 and 100 yards with the gusting winds.

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[Grizz]

that is Very interesting. thanks for posting these results. have you done this with any other firearms?