Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

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AJMD429
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Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

Post by AJMD429 »

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Suppose you’d been told all your life that a football field was “120 long and 1920 wide” – you’d think it was way wider than long, right…? Well, the numbers are correct, but in different UNITS - I gave the length in yards, and the width in INCHES:?

We (physicians) have been told (by the labs) that normal hormone levels for young healthy men and women are for women – an estrogen of maybe 200 or so, and a testosterone of maybe 50, depending on time in cycle. A male would have an estrogen of around 20, and a testosterone level of maybe 500. This 'made sense' to us, with each gender having a bunch more of 'their' hormone. There was no deception intended, but the labs usually try to use 'units' that are 2-3 digit whole numbers, just because they are easier to deal with - you wouldn't report the distance between Seattle and Indianapolis in feet, nor the dimensions of a desktop in yards.

But if the hormone levels were all reported in the same units as the woman’s estrogen, her testosterone level wouldn’t be “50”, but rather 500…! And the guy’s estrogen would be about 20, but his testosterone would be 5,000…! Depending on the lab used, the age of the woman, and the time in her cycle, a normal woman’s testosterone can be as much as ten times as high as her estrogen level…!

Each lab and clinic have different opinions and ‘ranges’, but a typical one is listed below – with translation to the same pg/ml for all:

Testosterone – male 300-1,000 ng/dl or 3,000-10,000 pg/ml – say ‘avg 6,500 pg/ml’
Testosterone - female 15-70 ng/dl or 150-700 pg/ml – say ‘avg 425 pg/ml’
Estrogen – male 10-40 pg/ml - say ‘avg 25 pg/ml’
Estrogen - female 56-214 pg/ml – say ‘avg 135 pg/ml’

Grouped by gender instead of hormone, just the averages of the same data:
Female Estrogen – 135 pg/ml and Testosterone - 425 pg/ml
Male Estrogen – 25 pg/ml and Testosterone – 6,500 pg/ml

Roughly - the rounded-off ratios are: Male Estrogen 1 vs Testosterone 250 and Female Estrogen 5 vs Testosterone 15

There are other subtleties, in that we often measure ‘free’ or ‘unbound’ hormones for more accuracy, we look at sub-types of estrogen (and sometimes testosterone), and the ‘desirable’ range is not the same as the ‘reference’ range – but the overall message is the same.

Two lessons here – First - estrogen is VERY potent – it clearly is able to make huge changes to the body (the only reason women have fancy breasts is their estrogen/testosterone level being higher at 1:3 versus a male at 1:250) even though it is only present it smaller amounts than testosterone. Secondly - the other lesson is that when we treated hormones in the past we messed up repeatedly:

Originally the majority of people died young, with an average lifespan of 40 or so, before aging/declining hormones did anything to us, and before we got cataracts or much arthritis. But sanitation and antibiotics and so on helped double lifespan over the recent hundred years or so, and now we nearly all tend to live long enough to get cataracts – which we fix, and arthritis – which we treat – and low sex hormones – which we ignore.

Since 'sex' hormones do FAR more than facilitate bedroom activities (they affect metabolism, heart disease, bones, brains, etc.), we began treating both genders for menopause, although at first just for ‘convenience’ – reducing hot flashes for women, and helping men perform in the bedroom. Since the body has a built-in safety mechanism to neutralize any hormones we might accidentally ingest (a pancreas full of insulin would be lethal), we started men out right, on injections of real human ('bioidentical') hormones, with no synthetics, but because shots were painful and embarrassing, and might make them spot if not given often enough, we gave women synthetic hormones we could give orally - and harmed them (by increasing heart disease, strokes, and cancers) for a whole generation. Then the next generation we were so scared due to the harm we’d caused that we didn’t give hormones at all, which was just as bad if not worse (still lots of heart disease, diabetes, strokes, and cognitive decline). Then, we realized if we used real human (bioidentical) hormones, using creams, we could give women the benefits we’d given men in terms of reducing cardiac and stroke risk, improving diabetes, delaying dementia, strengthening bones, and so on, and do it without any significant increase in cancers (actually reducing uterine and ovarian cancer deaths, and most likely not affecting breast cancer significantly one way or the other*).

But even now, we still see so many women enter older age much more frail than men do – without the ability to survive falls or even pneumonias, and without the vigor to do hobbies or yardwork that men often retain in older age. Now we are realizing that because we’ve only added testosterone to women’s postmenopausal regimens if they complained of bedroom/libido issues, it’s clear we may have once again done them wrong by omitting one of their most important hormones – they have less testosterone than men do, but in their prime of life they have more of it than they do estrogen. Why would we leave it out…? (Hint – because it takes time to explain such things and discuss them, and most people see doctors who are paid by insurance, and insurance pays for about 6-8 minutes of a physician’s time – past that the physician loses money if he ‘accepts insurance’).

I see many physicians who put themselves and their wives or husbands on hormone replacement, yet don't bother to even discuss it with patients, because that isn't going to fit into a 4-minute 99214 visit, and requires depth of discussion and trust that isn't often present in today's healthcare 'system'. So clearly there are other physicians out there who sincerely think that we shouldn't just let people have low levels of essential hormones when they get older, any more than we'd just let them have untreated cataracts or untreated arthritis.

Anyway - it will be interesting to see how this new 'epiphany' (that healthy women actually have more testosterone in their system than they do estrogen) affects the already-controversial area of hormone replacement. Full hormone replacement may not be ideal for everyone, but should at least be one thing, along with diet, nutrition, supplements, and exercise, that is part of consideration in trying to stay as healthy as possible for as long as possible.

* Of course everything in healthcare is 'controversial' and there is still lingering debate as to the impact of hormones on breast cancer - however if you dig beyond the hype, I think it becomes pretty clear that hormone replacement should not be ignored due to whatever risk there is or isn't concerning breast cancer - several references on that:

First a commentary on the great flaws in the Women's Health Initiative, which did NOT show that “estrogen causes breast cancer” (tended to show the opposite), but led to 50,000 or more women dying needlessly due to the irrational fears the media flamed by taking the data out of context and failing to use hormone properly, or even at all. - http://peterattiamd.com/caroltavris-avrumbluming/ - long but quite worth listening to...!

Even the Principal Investigator of the WHI study, Dr. JoAnn Manson, goes into how deeply flawed the WHI was, and how incredibly distorted and sensationalized not only the 'news' media coverage was, but the 'prestigious' medical journals like NEJM and JAMA went obligingly along with the party-line. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bRuzA-qd0s - not as up to date, actually, but something perhaps skeptics would find reveals that even those running the WHI knew it was deeply flawed.

Further, the numerous types of estrogen existing pre, peri, and post-menopausally in women can and should be looked at, and can be shifted by use of simple changes in diet, or supplements. https://dutchtest.com/video/an-integrat ... st-cancer/
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Re: Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

Post by GunnyMack »

Kinda the same in the canine world, used to be you spayed/neutered at 6-10mo of age. Science has found that altered dogs have higher cancer rates, more prone to ACL tears, etc. More recently brought to my attention that even removing dew claws on new born pups can be detrimental in later life.
However if you female dog can get at least 1 heat cycle before spaying she will be healthier longer.
I urge folks that get pups from me to not spay or neuter until at least 1 year old.
Some even swear by vasectomy. All this gives dogs the hormones that are needed .
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Re: Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

Great info. I sent a copy to my wife ... who wonders why I still take that shot every two weeks.
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AJMD429
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Re: Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

Post by AJMD429 »

Rimfire McNutjob wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 1:02 pm Great info. I sent a copy to my wife ... who wonders why I still take that shot every two weeks.
This video below explores the male hormone replacement spectrum fairly well. There are some details I'd nitpick with Dr Attia, but he is far more knowledgeable than 99% of the docs I talk to.

> https://youtu.be/-wkQA_oxOwA

And I think all women should watch at a minimum the one I referenced above (the others lay the foundation) -

> https://dutchtest.com/video/an-integrat ... st-cancer/

This on 'general' wellness is good, too -

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyid7vWO0zI

The biggest tragedy I see is that physicians have mostly sold out to the hospitals and insurance companies, and that has caused such public mistrust that patients have abandoned the 'system' except when they have an acute illness they cannot ignore, or something truly catastrophic happens (that could have likely been prevented, or diagnosed way earlier, if proper care were provided). If INSTEAD, we would address PREVENTATIVE things properly, we could really help people live long and productive lives. Unfortunately, charlatans and snake-oil-salesmen have stepped in to fill the void, and the internet has tons of 'buy my Elixir' stuff. I see patients all the time who are in the 30-50 age range who feel basically ok, but will start having infirmity of some sort in their 50's and 60's that COULD have been prevented or delayed until their 80's or 90's, if they had simply gotten PROACTIVE preventative care.

Pretty much you can give up on getting that kind of care in any comprehensive sense from the 'system' - health insurance only rewards 'procedures' and the "4-minute-level-4" office visit. That's why the docs who do useful proactive care are leaving the 'system' in droves (or just retiring early if they are too burned-out).

Men tend not to get much health care at all, because although we are not 'modest', we tend not to like to ask questions or admit symptoms, and we are results-oriented when the 'system' is bureaucracy-oriented. If we have wives who push us, we sometimes do get good care, at least.

Women tend to go to the doctor more often, prioritizing their health more than men, and although they are more modest, a $8 cloth gown can solve that issue, and they will divulge symptoms, ask questions, and followup as needed, unlike men. The problem with women's health care is it is dominated by glamorously-marketed female physicians and nurse practitioners offering herbal tea in the waiting room and glossy pamphlets, but still mostly focusing on shilling for Big Pharma, and using the 4-minute-99214 as a vehicle.

I see both sexes presenting in their 30's or 40's feeling fine except maybe mild weight issues or mild fatigue, and they often saw some prestigious Internist or Gynecologist who did a "complete workup" on them and said everything was perfect. Yet when I do their examination they have signs of thyroid or sex hormones being messed up, acanthosis in several places, and when PROPER tests are ordered, they have a fasting insulin of 38 (should be 8 or less), men will have estrogen combined totals of 120 (should be under 60), unbound/free testosterone of 50 (should be 150), homocysteines of 15 (should be 8 or less), thyroid numbers way off (the TSH will be fine but reverse-T3/free-T3 will be 20), and women will have every symptom of low progesterone there is, but someone did a saliva-test and told them it was ok, or that it was low but to fix it with some PLANT hormone that was 'natural' (...still not sure how a PLANT hormone with a different molecular structure is 'natural' for a HUMAN to use to address a deficiency... :roll: ). More often, the woman will have been given antidepressants and sleeping pills and told it is somehow normal to have a diminishing libido past age 40 - when odds are good that supplementing magnesium, iodine, progesterone, and perhaps melatonin (properly dosed) at bedtime, would do the job right, fixing the problems instead of just treating symptoms. Or I see dudes who heard "statins are bad" and because they WERE truly over-prescribed for a couple decades, refuse to take them despite oxidized LDL's through the roof, and omega-3 levels so low their peripheral vessles show calcification on xrays. Ironically the same patient whose (legitimate) distrust of Big Pharma has pushed them to refuse what might be an appropriate medication for THEM (even if not for many others), will not bother to address an elevated homocysteine due to MTHFR single nucleotide polymorphisms (which may be more dangerous than the lipids), because the MethylGuard Plus they need isn't a prescription medication from Big Pharma, so isn't covered by insurance. Most likely though - their doctor probably hasn't addressed any of those things to begin with, and since the patient feels ok, they don't know that the stroke they are going to have in 14 years could be easily delayed until 30 years, or that the breast or prostate cancer that will finally be found at age 60 and have a huge surgery/radiation/chemo fight with, could have been found way earlier - and fixed so much more easily - if they would have had their testosterone or progesterone addressed, or even in the case of women, simply been placed on an iodine supplement.

But most of the women I see who finally are getting an actual Primary Care physician after just seeing a gynecologist during their 'birthing' years, haven't even been shown how to do breast self-exam properly, much less what to look for in regards to less-common but more-dangerous melanoma. So clearly our 'system' is not very good at the basics.

Obviously I'm over-simplifying, and healthcare is complex and needs individualized evaluation with a thorough history (meaning a conversation that is directed, not some iPad check-box thing you fill out in a waiting room), complete physical exam (few physicians bother these days, and they miss lots of stuff), and APPROPRIATE tests (versus what insurance makes profitable). After that, followup should entail another long appointment to discuss findings, offer options (not just 'natural' nor just 'pharmaceutical', but everything - prayer, meditation, surgery, medication, supplements, nutrition, physical therapy, and mental therapy), then formulate a game-plan, implement it, and plan followup. Stuff I'm mentioning here is not a game-plan, nor might it be appropriate for everyone, BUT these are the kinds of things EVERYONE should at least have a primary care provider address.

Choose your healthcare provider wisely - I'd say that way less than 5% of MD's have the proactive approach. Maybe a slightly higher percentage of NP's and Chiropractics do, judging from the area I'm practicing in.

We're all gonna die sooner or later, but to me the goal is to have as many healthy, productive, and FUN years as possible, and although bad luck can always negate the best efforts, there are so many relatively easy things physicians SHOULD be at least discussing with their patients. Sadly, these days for the most part, the patient has to be proactive, and at least medically literate enough to seek out decent sources of information (that's why I recommended Attia and Patrick videos above - I find them both very credible, as I do the one on urinary estrogen metabolites). I feel bad for the older, less assertive, and sometimes less educated people - they have a hard time self-advocating enough to get good care. Sometimes a spouse, sibling, child, or even neighbor, will bring them in to the doctor, and if the doctor is at least semi-receptive to proactive practice, they will get good care.
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Re: Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

Post by GunnyMack »

I can say this Doc, the human animal is not what we once were, case in point my mother's father was 82 in 1941 when mom was born and she has a little brother! He married my grandmother when she was 19ish( not really good records on the reservation).
All the junk food we eat probably doesn't help with it.
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Re: Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

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Heck, the medical/pharmaceutical community can't even agree on a unit of measurement for simple stuff. Just look at the different ways Europe measure blood sugar as opposed to the US.
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Re: Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

Post by AJMD429 »

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By the way for those women who are assuming they should spend half their life without reasonable hormone levels "because estrogen causes breast cancer" - they really should listen to this podcast - https://peterattiamd.com/caroltavris-avrumbluming/ - even one of the lead investigators of the Women's Health Initiative (the study misquoted to make that absurd claim) has said that conclusion was nonsense - in this interview she goes into how deeply flawed the WHI was, and how incredibly distorted and sensationalized not only the 'news' media coverage was, but the 'prestigious' medical journals like NEJM and JAMA went obligingly along with the party-line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bRuzA-qd0s - not as up to date, actually, but something perhaps skeptics would find reveals that even those running the WHI knew it was deeply flawed.

Killing women by NOT treating things that could save their lives is not much different than killing them with side effects from something, and to fail to treat the many things hormone replacement can help with because misinterpretation of a flawed study was sensationalized by the news media, is a disservice to wll women.

Many women elect to avoid 'hormones', and IF that's an informed decision, that is fine, but when the only 'side' they hear is what the television talk-shows say, perhaps their physicians need to at least open up the dialogue. I would urge all women to listen to BOTH the above podcasts to at least hear what the 'news' media, and often their doctor, won't tell them...
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Re: Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

Post by Grizz »

Doc, this is so beneficial, thanks, we appreciate it. This gets a blue ribbon. :)
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AJMD429
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Re: Healthcare Epiphany on Sex Hormones...

Post by AJMD429 »

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It’s sort of what I do all day…

Plus, gotta keep the pro-gun crowd alive and spunky; we have one heck of a decade ahead…
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