1886 Pressure Signs

[1972RedNeck]

I have been working up some loads in my new Winchester Miroku 1886 in 45-90. I bought it for the sole purpose of a fairly flat shooting big bore big game lever rifle so I was planning on loading it hot right from the start.

Currently working with 300 grain jacketed bullets and IMR 3031 in Starline 45-90 brass. Have worked my way up to 73 grains of powder and have super easy extraction and good looking large rifle primers. Loads are moderately compressed. The recoil is addicting. Accuracy is surprisingly good for an open sight lever gun.

My Lyman manual lists the same bullet in a 458 Win with .08" longer COAL with 72 grains of IMR 3031 at 31,500 CUP so I suspect I am 35K+ CUP.

Am I good to go with this load or are there other pressure signs I should be looking for? How many CUP is new 1886 good for?

Finally got my hands on five pounds of Reloder 7 so I will be moving to that next to hopefully gain a little more speed.

[GunnyMack]

Not many still use CUP, instead they use PSI, converting one to the other is not an exact formula as far as I know, but I'm not a ballistician and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn so I would go slowly at top end loads.

Someone here might have data that could point you in the right direction?

I've said it before- ask the manufacturer what their product is rated for. Someone's data could very well be dangerous in YOUR gun.

To quote one on my instructors, ' and the angles sing' . He would always say this when approaching top end loads.

[1972RedNeck]

I've said it before- ask the manufacturer what their product is rated for. Someone's data could very well be dangerous in YOUR gun.

Well, the barrel says "black powder only" so I'm a slight bit over manufacturer recommendations. I knew this going in.

[Grizz]

I've said it before- ask the manufacturer what their product is rated for. Someone's data could very well be dangerous in YOUR gun.

Well, the barrel says "black powder only" so I'm a slight bit over manufacturer recommendations. I knew this going in.

that answers all the questions, yeah?

[bgmkithaca]

It has been quite a while since I loaded for 45-90 but was using IMR 3031 and300 grain bullets. From memory it seems like around 64 grains was a 100 precent load.
If you are geting 73 grains in the case you must be very heavily compressed. Can you hear powder crunching when you seat the bullet? If you are going to RL-7
be careful-it is quite a bit faster than 3031 and pressure can spike quickly with heavier loads.

[1972RedNeck]

It has been quite a while since I loaded for 45-90 but was using IMR 3031 and300 grain bullets. From memory it seems like around 64 grains was a 100 precent load.
If you are geting 73 grains in the case you must be very heavily compressed. Can you hear powder crunching when you seat the bullet? If you are going to RL-7
be careful-it is quite a bit faster than 3031 and pressure can spike quickly with heavier loads.

About 75 grains of 3031 fills the case to the top without a drop tube. So yes, 73 grains is compressed. Great accuracy and clean burning.

This morning I worked up some RL7 loads. Up to 70 grains right now. Not even a hint of a pressure sign. More recoil than any rifle I have ever fired. Going to let the shoulder rest for a day or two before I see how it groups.

[earlmck]

I don't have a 45/90 so not coming from actual experience here. Out of curiosity I did look at your loads in QuickLoad, using 2.88" COAL, 24" bbl with Hornady 300 grain bullet. With your 73/3031 load QL thinks you'd get 2550 fps, 43k psi. That 70 grains RL 7 looks like 2670 fps but at 62k psi which I would think should be showing some signs of high pressure such as pretty dang flat primer and (if you keep it up) loose primer pockets. The gun itself isn't going to come apart at that pressure level.

QL thinks 3031 gives you the best velocity with acceptable pressures; 61.5 grains RL-7 would give the same 42k psi but 150 fps less velocity. However I have seen that QL is biased toward crediting 3031 better velocity and lower pressure than my real-life experience with it. Anyway, RL-7 is a fast enough powder to get you in trouble so keep an eye out for those angels.

[crs]

Welcome to the 1886 45-90 crowd.
I bought a new Winchester 1886 45-90 because it provided both the 45-70 and 45-90 and I am very pleased with the performance of both cartridges in the US and Africa.
The 90 performs well up into the .458 Win Mag range and it takes all African game (ele, buff, leopard, etc) cleanly with one shot.
I tried few different powders and found that VV N133 provided the desired velocities with the lowest pressure with North Fork 450 grain bullets. Most are shoot-throughs with no bullet recovered.

[1972RedNeck]

Welcome to the 1886 45-90 crowd.
I bought a new Winchester 1886 45-90 because it provided both the 45-70 and 45-90 and I am very pleased with the performance of both cartridges in the US and Africa.
The 90 performs well up into the .458 Win Mag range and it takes all African game (ele, buff, leopard, etc) cleanly with one shot.
I tried few different powders and found that VV N133 provided the desired velocities with the lowest pressure with North Fork 450 grain bullets. Most are shoot-throughs with no bullet recovered.

I was hoping you'd chime in. Any chance you would be willing to share all the load data you have worked up for your rifle?

[KWK]

How many CUP is new 1886 good for?

Well, originals were likely of steel not as good as Miroku will be using today. They handled the 33 WCF and 348 just fine. The European standards call for pressure limits in the mid 40s true, call it about 40,000 CUP. The Pedersoli '86s are available in 444 Marlin, and their standards call for about 50,000 psi, call it mid 40s on the CUP scale. I'd guess Pedersoli isn't using as good a steel as Miroku, but that's only a guess.

You didn't say how much speed you were getting from what length barrel, so it's hard to estimate what sort or pressure you might be running.

[JFE]

You can’t compare load data from the 458WM with the 45/90, even though case capacity wise there’s not much difference. The 458WM has an enormous wide and long throat that was designed to blow off pressure quickly and is the reason why the 458 can achieve the velocities that it does from such a relatively small case. The 45/90 has no throat, similar to a lot of levergun rifle cartridges.

[1972RedNeck]

You can’t compare load data from the 458WM with the 45/90, even though case capacity wise there’s not much difference. The 458WM has an enormous wide and long throat that was designed to blow off pressure quickly and is the reason why the 458 can achieve the velocities that it does from such a relatively small case. The 45/90 has no throat, similar to a lot of levergun rifle cartridges.

Yes, I wasn't directly comparing it, I was just saying that if a charge has x pressure in 458, I'm pretty sure it has significantly more pressure in a 45-90. Which it sounds like we agree on.

[wvfarrier]

I had the best results with 64 grain of 3031 but that was in a 20" barrel

[Scott Tschirhart]

I think the 86 was more popular in some places than others.

You don’t see a lot of these rifles in the hands of Texas Rangers for example. But there are some.

For example one of my Texas Ranger relatives clearly has an 86 in his hand in this photo.

[JimT]

The only reliable way to tell pressures is have the loads tested in a pressure barrel. I have seen more than one gun blown and the primers look normal, even on what was left of the cartridge that blew. This has been written about and documented in photos since the 1940's, yet it is still ignored quite often.

Years ago when working in uncharted territory .. at least for me ... my loads were tested in a pressure barrel and from then on I knew I was staying within safe limits. Several of my loads gave unsettling readings and were discontinued, even though I had shot quite a few of them and accuracy was good.

That all was more than 40 years ago and I am still using them ... though these days I tend toward lighter less recoiling loads.

[Grizz]

The only reliable way to tell pressures is have the loads tested in a pressure barrel. I have seen more than one gun blown and the primers look normal, even on what was left of the cartridge that blew. This has been written about and documented in photos since the 1940's, yet it is still ignored quite often.

Years ago when working in uncharted territory .. at least for me ... my loads were tested in a pressure barrel and from then on I knew I was staying within safe limits. Several of my loads gave unsettling readings and were discontinued, even though I had shot quite a few of them and accuracy was good.

That all was more than 40 years ago and I am still using them ... though these days I tend toward lighter less recoiling loads.

I usually found the Starting Load and dropped down a couple of grains. And that was the sbh load that wound up making the most meat...

[AJMD429]

.
Sounds like crs here has figured a lot of this out for you already (that’s the kind of thing that makes this forum so much fun and so useful), and that cartridge should do what you need without even approaching dangerous territory.

Regarding black powder pressure versus smokeless, there are several threads on this forum going back a few years dealing with the idea of using smokers powder, even in muzzleloaders, and it is quite possible to do. Some smokeless powders replicate the details of the black powder pressure curve, which takes into account the rapidity of rise as well as the duration, as opposed to just the peak, and are fairly close to black powder with less corrosive residue.

I would be a little careful with compressed stick (vs ball) powder loads, just thinking that it’s rate of burn is controlled by surface area which could dramatically change if you crushed a significant proportion of the powder. I’ve never heard definitively that that pose the problem, but it seems like it could.

There is a lot of loading data on AmmoGuide.com from both users and manufacturers, and it is only 20 bucks a year or something. There are lots of other articles and things there, and some of the search and sort capabilities far exceed that of most other reloading websites.

I agree with what others have said that is difficult to predict pressures, although QuickLoad seems to predict pressures fairly well to the extent people are able to compare it with pressure-barrel testing.

Part of the problem with cartridges developed back in the era of black powder and soft steel, is that, unless the cartridge is very popular, there isn’t much officially supported load data for modern, higher pressure loads. That’s one reason in my case that I have a 444 Marlin and a 500 Smith & Wesson, to fill roles that a 45-70 with ‘Ruger only’ loads could probably fill quite well. With those cartridges we have tons of factory-sanctioned load data for fast velocity, or heavy bullets, respectively.

[1972RedNeck]

Welcome to the 1886 45-90 crowd.
I bought a new Winchester 1886 45-90 because it provided both the 45-70 and 45-90 and I am very pleased with the performance of both cartridges in the US and Africa.
The 90 performs well up into the .458 Win Mag range and it takes all African game (ele, buff, leopard, etc) cleanly with one shot.
I tried few different powders and found that VV N133 provided the desired velocities with the lowest pressure with North Fork 450 grain bullets. Most are shoot-throughs with no bullet recovered.

Would you be willing to share your load data with me?

cfiwua@gmailcom