Marlin 1894 44-40

[Rockrat]

Have a chance to pick up one of these recent made guns and wondering what they are worth? 97% or so.

Thanks

[.45colt]

If it's below a grand I'd jump on it like Junior on a samich . If it get to gunbroker the sky is the limit. .......... .

[Rockrat]

Picked it up. Will get pics soon. Still has the Marlin sticker on the forearm. I am wondering if the thing is unfired or if fired, durn little. No box though
What have you found to be the bore/groove dia. on the 44-40 guns?

[.45colt]

If I re member right I think they are .429 . the Guy We need to hear from is Bryan Austin (aka Savvy Jack). He is a 44-40 nut and a wealth of information. The late John Kort was the best Man about it. here is an old post by Savvy Jack about long range in His Marlin says He sized the bullets to .427.
https://www.levergunscommunity.org/view ... rt#p845197

[.45colt]

And on Bryans post near the bottom click on the 44-40 website link. loads of info on the round. .

[Sixgun]

Jack Kort, a personal friend of mine owned exactly one 44-40, an old loose 1873 Winchester. He was mostly an historian and there wasn't much he could not tell you about its development from every major manufacturer.

Bryan, while very knowledgeable on the ballistics is a relatively newcomer to the cartridge but has gained more internal knowledge in his time with the 44-40 than 99% of people.

I have a working knowledge of it, loading for at least 2-3 dozen handguns and rifles from every manufacturer from the 1870's on for the last 49 years....Early Colt, Winchester, Marlin, Remington, M&H and a half dozen smaller manufacturers have groove diameters that run from .424-433...this is from personal slugging of the groove diameter. You have to slug the barrels along with the cylinder throats on revolvers to know what they measure.

Newer guns of U.S. Manufacture made since the 1990's on most always use 44 magnum barrel stock and then are chambered for the 44-40. I've only owned maybe 6-8 of the modern ones and they all miked out at .429-.432. It's done by design for simplicity and legal reasons. .U.S. individual manufacturers are very consistent in their groove diameters but will vary between each manufacturer. I suggest you slug it.....it's probably .431.

I have zero idea what the Italians or Rossi use.--006

[Rockrat]

Sixgun---you are spot on, it was .431". Figured I needed a .433" cast bullet for the mirco-groove barrel. Bad thing is, my dies were designed for smaller bullets and crush the case about half the time, when trying to seat the bullets. Not enough clearance between the neck and case. Thinking of getting a Lee crimp die for crimping. Seating bullets with a 30 BR dies, the shoulder seating the slugs. Just need to crimp.

The few that did seat/crimp do fit in the chamber.

[Sixgun]

Thanks Rockrat..I'm always "spot on".

You need a larger expander ...say .429....your bullets will fit friction tight. If you have a nice crimp groove on the bullet, no need for a LFCD......just roll em in...---006

Don't understand why your cases are buckling....are you belling them out enough for the bullet to enter? If you don't have the proper expanded just use a 50 BMG bullet or something similar and tap it in to bell it out.

.431 diameter may be OK....test as .433 bullets are hard to find...or cast....you would have to open up the mould or use lots of tin.

[Grizz]

Marshall Stanton says he sizes the bullet 2 thou over groove diameter, and sizes the cylinder to be a push-fit, by thumb pressure, through the chambers. he normalizes them to that size. then he fire laps the bore. his before and after targets show the effects.

my redhawk is going to get this treatment, plus a factory trigger job. should be a fun outing when that gets going with the 405 gr hard cast.

all to say i wish that i had started with 44-40 umptie-ump years ago.

[Grizz]

Marshall Stanton says he sizes the bullet 2 thou over groove diameter, and sizes the cylinder to be a push-fit, by thumb pressure, through the chambers. he normalizes them to that size. then he fire laps the bore. his before and after targets show the effects.

my redhawk is going to get this treatment, plus a factory trigger job. should be a fun outing when that gets going with the 405 gr hard cast.

all to say i wish that i had started with 44-40 umptie-ump years ago.

umpty-ump, did he really say that?

†

[Sixgun]

Grizz...you talkin'' to yourself again?....

.002? I've gone .003 if the chamber will take it......helps to line it up with the bore better.

[Grizz]

Grizz...you talkin'' to yourself again?.... [ OF COURSE SIX ]

.002? I've gone .003 if the chamber will take it......helps to line it up with the bore better.

[Rockrat]

I have a few moulds that cast at .433". Plenty of belling on the case mouth. I think there is not any clearance on the neck of the seating die, for the neck of the case, so instead of running the case into the die, it just stops when the case neck enters that portion of the die. Kind of like if you ran the die down too far and crimped too hard. I do need a larger expander, the one in the Redding die measures at .425".
The dies work great on my old Marlin 1889 with its .428" groove, but not on the larger .431" groove of the modern 1894

[Sixgun]

Ok, I know what your talking about......

Bell just enough for the bullet to enter....

Or seat with a 44 mag.or 45 Colt seater then run it back into the 44-40 seater and see if you can crimp......or LFCD......or just open up the seater with a dremel tool...you only need to open a couple of thou......maybe another brand of brass would be thinner.

You just got to keep playing around with different dies....you'll figure it out.----006

You want some thinking to do, you ought to try loading for some antique Winchester rounds from the 1880's in original guns....and making them accurate......inside neck reaming, honing out moulds, reforming brass, running loaded rounds into other dies....

[OldWin]

Ok, I know what your talking about......

Bell just enough for the bullet to enter....

Or seat with a 44 mag.or 45 Colt seater then run it back into the 44-40 seater and see if you can crimp......or LFCD......or just open up the seater with a dremel tool...you only need to open a couple of thou......maybe another brand of brass would be thinner.

You just got to keep playing around with different dies....you'll figure it out.----006

You want some thinking to do, you ought to try loading for some antique Winchester rounds from the 1880's in original guns....and making them accurate......inside neck reaming, honing out moulds, reforming brass, running loaded rounds into other dies....

I have done this with a 44 magnum expander and seater. It works well.
I have also expanded them with the old Winchester tong tool expander. Then gone back and seated with the 44-40 seater.

[Rockrat]

Thanks for the hint of using a 45 colt seating die. Will try that. Been thinking of ordering a LFCD. Will expand/bell using my 44mag expander. I will get there


UPDATE----Found a Lee 44 special seat/crimp die, but crimp part of die was smaller than the bullet diameter, so was seating bullets way down in the case. Looked thru some other dies and found an RCBS 44 sp/mag seating/crimp die (made in 1982) and tried it. Success!!! Seated the .433" bullets and crimped just fine, so good to go, kind of. Just emailed Redding dies to see if I could get an expander for the 44 mag. Figure it will be at least .428" in diameter vs. the .425" diameter for the 44-40 expander. Have a gun show here next weekend, so maybe I can find what I need there, but things are looking up!!

[Sixgun]

Ya see now what I'm talking about Rock Rat...(by the way, how in the heck did you come up with a name like that?)

Anyway, you are gaining valuable "hands on knowledge" which will carry you through life and which you won't "read in a magazine"...you will be able to use this knowledge to cross reference with other issues in the future...

I've been doing reloading/casting/old guns/ thing this since I was 18.....non stop..everyday......and I come here to share my vast knowledge of which many here "put me down" because I'm a know-it-all and rarely, very rarely get even a thank you, even from those who "preach the Lord"..... well, I am a know-it-all.....------006.....secret agent who can't tell his wife where he's going for a month)...........

You have a personal invitation to come to the mightiest of all threads, the "Politically Incorrect" thread in the Politics section. (Yea, they try to keep me and my buds hidden away in a closet.)

[Rockrat]

Sixgun

Well, I will say "Thank You"!!. Also been casting/loading for the last 45 years or so, but I keep an open mind as there is still a lot I don't know. Thats why I come here, because of the vast amounts of knowledge here and a good attitude towards others so inclined

Rockrat is my Harley riders "Road name" which came about because I would often check out the rocks wherever we rode. Use to carry my small rock pick. Have a degree in Geology

[Grizz]

and I come here to share my vast knowledge of which many here "put me down" because I'm a know-it-all and rarely, very rarely get even a thank you, even from those who "preach the Lord".....

Hey Six ! thank you "for preaching the Lord" .....

[Grizz]

and I come here to share my vast knowledge of which many here "put me down" because I'm a know-it-all and rarely, very rarely get even a thank you, even from those who "preach the Lord".....

Hey Six ! thank you "for preaching the Lord" .....

when you do

[marlinman93]

Most of the old .44-40's and the old ammo was loaded with .427" bullets. The Marlin 1894/94's I owned all had groove diameters around that size, but mine were all pre WWI era.

[buckeyeshooter]

Congratulations on the shooter. I have wanted one for 20 years but have never been at the right place at the right time.

[Bryan Austin]

Sorry I am late to the party guys!!

Also thanks for the kind words sixgun and 45Colt, they are greatly appreciated.

I have been around the 44-40 Marlin rifle since I was a kid. I still have the Model 1889 made in 1891 that my dad purchased somewhere in the 1950's. I didn't shoot it much but I did hunt with it, however I never did shoot anything with it. I mostly hunted and killed with my dad's 1951 Winchester 30-30 cause I thought it was the Old West cowboy gun....lol
Me and the 1951 30-30 that I still have. Actually I still have the Marlin too.

Bryan as a baby with gun.jpg

EmbeddedImage.jpg

CAS brought me back to the old guns and that is when I started back with the 44-40. It was about 2008 that I got heavy into the history of the cartridge and John Kort reached out to me and started showing me answers to my questions. Pretty much all I have done is progress where he left off in 2018. Seemed everywhere I searched, John's name was there. He sent me several bullets that I tested with his requested loads into ballistics gel. They are posted on the website. Shortly before he passed he gave me permission to post all of his forum topics on the 44-40 website. Him along with a few others, allowed me to group together a ton of 44-40 information, both cartridge and firearms. Here is John's 44-40 page. https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... /john-kort

One of my favorites with John was his 300 meter black powder hits with what I thought was his Marlin with a scope. Maybe it was a friends. According to many 44-40 posts he made, he used a Marlin "Cowboy" 24" barrel with a 4x scope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbxvlQUkQfU&t=2s

Anyhow,
I am certainly more than willing to answer any questions you have. If I don't know, we will find out together. I have spent a ton of time recently making the 150+ page website more iphone friendly since the majority of folks now days surf the net with their phones. I don't use youtube any more and I reposted some of my videos on Full30's studio here:
https://www.full30.com/channel/44-40-cartridges.

I actually even tried my hand at hunting public gameslands this past season....it was brutal...LOL
https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... /2021-hunt

Rockrat, glad you got it figured out, let know how it performs.

If ya still need to find something else, Ed Harris designed the 43-200QL for just such an issue. If ya use soft lead, it will expand into the bore.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winches ... r-73-bores

43-200QL-D.png

"This is a heeled bullet which can be hand-started into the case without mouth expanding sized brass. It can also be hand-lubed, by wiping cup grease on the shank with the fingers, then the bullet seated against its stop surface by pushing the nose against a table edge. I carefully roll crimp using my regular Lee seater, NOT the factory crimp die, and the nose flange is cold-formed to match the die interior, forming a .435-.440" diameter driving band .060 wide above the crimp groove. When loaded in Starline brass neck diameter is .443". The cold-formed nose band does not impinge against the rifling, but seals the forcing cone in oversized or worn barrels. Rounds chamber and extract without marking from my Microgroove Marlin 1894S. I'm just letting people know this design is out there if you have a tight-necked chamber which otherwise precludes loading larger diameter bullets. This may be an option. 30wcf had promising initial results with it. I'm shooting some in my new rifle this week." ~Ed Harris

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_de ... t=43-200QL

[Drawdown]

Great stuff Bryan, I read some of it years ago when I first learned about this site. Gonna keep it, read up again. Your hunting grounds looks just like mine.
What is that scope and mounts? Looks like the one Josey Wales pulled out on his Sharps!

[Bryan Austin]

Great stuff Bryan, I read some of it years ago when I first learned about this site. Gonna keep it, read up again. Your hunting grounds looks just like mine.
What is that scope and mounts? Looks like the one Josey Wales pulled out on his Sharps!

It is a 6x Malcolm scope by Hi-Lux. I forget who makes the mounts.

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