OT - Packin' Pistol

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:29 pm

What would you recommend for a pistol while packin' elk quarters. I hunt in N/W Wyoming west of Jackson. I don't like carrying my rifle while packing the quarters. I used to carry my S&W Model 29 .44 in 6" barrel. I was thinking about a big bore single action. I suppose it's more "want" than "need". Anyways, I've never shot a 454 caliber or other big bores. How do they compare to a .44 in recoil? Is it fun to shoot? I know my S&W would be faster in the event of a bear attack but I really like SAA pistols. I have a SAA in .45 colt/45 ACP. I'm not sure of the quality. It's a Uberti from Mitchell Arms I got in a trade. I really like the Freedom Arms though.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:51 pm

Me likey mine. Blackhawk .45colt

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:54 pm

Brian Pearce's recommendations are wide ranging. Personal prejudice would seem to play a part. A 4-1/2" .454 might suit you just as a 4-5/8" or 4-3/4" .45 Colt SA or 4" .44 Mag DA suits me. Of course, I'm not elk hunting and don't have to worry about big, brown bears.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:54 pm

I just picked up a S&W 6294 inch for my bear problem,
I did not have a bear problem untill the EPA decided to " help " us.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:45 pm

It depends on your definition of "a packin' pistol". A longer barreled revolver can be rather comfortably worn in a cross draw or some form of shoulder holster. I have a FA 83 in 454 w/a 7.5" bbl. and I'm very comfortable in big critter country packing it. Recoil is a subjective issue, some people can take a lot of it and some can't handle hardly any. The 454 is definitely a step above a 44 mag, but with the FA's modified Bisley grip it rolls easily in the hand.

A shootists definition of a packing pistol, a John Linebaugh Ruger Bisley conversion in 475 Linebaugh. With high end loads it's about all the recoil I want.

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:54 pm

I used to wear a pistol regularly for a job I had with the state and it was an M29 with 6-1/2" bbl in a shoulder rig. I am tall and reasonably thick in the chest so it was extremely comfortable and inconspicuous. On the other hand, every belt rig I've used - excepting the M1911 type thumb-break from Bianchi - has been a real pain to wear unless I'm on horseback. So to answer your question, I would stick to the .44 Mag in a shoulder holster. I like big SAA's also and the Uberti would probably be fine but the .44 is better bear medicine.

44LVR · Post by **44LVR** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:52 pm

Even though I'm a single action guy (only own 1 Smith 624 I"ve never shot...!) I'd say just stay with your .44 Smith and go with a good stout load with a relatively heavy cast bullet. I"ve never recovered one (from 270 to 330 grs) out of even elk with any of my .44's. Killed a few very large blackbears with such loads but never had to shoot a charging grizz

44

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:59 pm

I would use my Freedom Arms in .45lc (5 1/2 octagon barrel) with stout loads. It is my woods carry gun for hunting anything bigger than a bunny, and protectection from anything that might bite or attack.

H_Talon · Post by **H_Talon** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:37 pm

regardless as to the caliber ... I suggest a double action, as large as you can
control, if your carrying you may only have one hand and cocking and shooting
while scared could cost you

I have a redhawk, cut to 3" and a round grip, work done by gary reeder.
his Alaskan survivalists model. loaded with 300grn grizzlies hard cast wide flat
nose thumpers.

just my thoughts ...

Talon

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:09 am

I'd stick with the M29.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:57 am

Like others...I would stick with the 44 mag
and, the single action is faster than the double action,
but you will need two hands....I watch cowboy action shooting
the other night, and they compared the single and double action
revolvers to a 1911....single action was almost as fast as the 1911
the double action was a second or so slower....
but as i said, you have to use two hand....If your in a jamb,
i would prefer the double action....just point and pull the trigger

ya might want to check out the S&W 500 or 460
I think in the 460 , you can shoot the 45lc, 454, and the 460
this is one heavy gun to haul around though.......

dkmlever · Post by **dkmlever** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:13 am

I would suggest (from hunting in Ak) trying your pack on with the pistol, most hip belts make a side mounted holster, even a high rise one very hard to draw from. A sholder holster sometimes gets in the way of your shoulder straps or of the sternum strap from your pack. Carring a shorter barreled shotgun in your hand or over your shoulder is sometimes the fastest to bring into play. I would look at modifing your holster to be attached to the outside of the pack frame/belts. Take in consideration any coats you may be wearing also. If your going to have it, make sure you can use it not just another five pounds to carry.

donw · Post by **donw** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:30 am

i know this will bring "weeping and wailing and knashing of teeth" but...

...i'd consider the springfiled armory's XD's in .45acp...

they're very easy to 'pack' and i suspect, would be much faster and easier to 'get into play' than a long barreled wheel gun should the need arise.

some may say the .45acp might not be enough gun for bear attack but hey...if you're nose to nose with URSUS...you need only one hand to fire it with, ten round mag, no visible hammer to catch on clothing/pack gear, you can carry more mags should you wish, no need to cock manually as with a SA.

i've never understood why you don't see more semi-auto pistols in the feild with hunters. heck, the venerable colt 1911 has proven to be every bit as rugged and reliable as the colt SA.

i carry my 9mm with me bird/small game hunting. once long ago, i came on a BLM ranger who was REALLY obnoxious, aggressive and upset that i carried a 9mm semi-auto to small game hunt with. it's not illegal, though; not even here in kaliphornia.

JMHO...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:38 am

Autos: Not if they will jam, but when.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:59 am

BlaineG wrote:Autos: Not if they will jam, but when.

I don't believe their ballistics were designed for hunting purposes either.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:57 pm

My favorite "Packin' Pistol"

OM Super Blackhawk .44 worked over by Hamilton Bowen.

I like the shoulder holster idea. I've been looking for one for the SBH in a WWII tanker style.
Saw one somewhere. No idea who made it.

jb

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:05 pm

Nice piece, 2ndovc.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:21 pm

kimwcook wrote:Nice piece, 2ndovc.

Thank you Sir!

I call it my "Divorce Gun"

After my divorce was final I had to spend an obnoxious amount of $$ on something totally unecessary.

Turns out to be an absolute necessity! Can't go anywhere without it

AkRay · Post by **AkRay** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:36 pm

The Smith & Wesson .44 magnum was all the gun EMK ever needed to carry. I started with one in 8 3/8", but went to a 4 5/8" Bisley in .500 Linebaugh which had a LOT of recoil. I wanted pure penetrating power. My gun was converted by Phillips and Rodgers, and I don't think everything was built to exacting standards on it. I used that .500 L for my hiking and tent gun for a number of years, and felt well armed, and also used it for the finishing shot on a couple of moose. It was just too much gun for accurate 25 yd+ shooting in my hands though, and further practice would probably only serve to exacerbate the flinch problem.

My biggest problem with it was that it wouldn't shoot through big logs and such as well as my "feeble" .44 magnums when they were loaded with 320 gr bullets. In my experience, a Super Blackhawk with heavy bullets will perform all out of proportion to its caliber and especially cost in terms of penetration. It should be too small comparatively speaking, and too plain to do the things it does. My Super Blackhawk not only kept pace with a gun that cost 4 1/2 to 5 times more, but actually worked better in the category that I thought was most important. In addition to that it's more shootable. Where's the fun in a discovery like that?

In addition to my Super Blackhawks, I now own a Freedom Arms in .454, which is also getting up there in recoil, but isn't quite where my .500 Linebaugh was. The Freedom Arms represents my indulgence in ultimate handgun quality, but it's also very powerful. I've never had to shoot a bear in defense of my life, but I've seen blacks and grizzlies while outdoors. They're awesome and intimidating animals. Even knowing that, for bear protection while carrying a heavy pack, a Super Blackhawk with heavy bullet loads would do nicely at a much better price than almost everything else out there.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:27 pm

Whatcha got is fine. Put good ammo in it and you only have to worry about the UberGrizz.

I like the FA .454s but you don't have one and while the perfomance envelope is far wider, it's not going to be that big of a deal in real terms.

Now, go buy yourself a new gun or 3.

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:13 pm

I carry a glock 23

, I know there are better suited side arms for the task at hand but I shoot the gun alot and have became quite used to it. I can quickly and accurately fire 11 rounds of .357 level power. I have other more powerful revolvers, but I cant shoot them as good as the ugly austrian plastic bottom feeder. Plus since I bought the pistol new I have fired over 3,500 rounds without ANY problem. A gun that has been 100% reliable with close to 4,000 rounds through it is trustworthy to me

I like revolvers but I trust the G23 more. That being said... I like the short barrel shotgun idea in big bear country

44LVR · Post by **44LVR** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:47 pm

2ndovc wrote:I like the shoulder holster idea. I've been looking for one for the SBH in a WWII tanker style. Saw one somewhere. No idea who made it.

El Paso Saddlery

44

1886 · Post by **1886** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:47 pm

John Taffin has written a couple of books regarding big bore handguns. There is much info in these two publications and he covers packin' pistols extensively. I have a BFR ser# JT series chambered in .475 Linebaugh. I had the factory modify the gun to my specs. It is superbly accurate and very packable. Good luck in your search. 1886.

bj94 · Post by **bj94** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:12 pm

I would go for a 4" Redhawk in .45Colt or a Ruger Alaskan in .454C. I think double action is important and I think bullets in the 350 grain neighborhood are good.

To answer the other question- shooting a .454 is a matter of opinion. I think they are a lot of fun but some people would think they are horrible.

Here is my daughter at full recoil with a Freedom Arms .454C belonging to one of the attendees of the Spring 2008 CSA:

<img src="http://www.confederatesixgunners.com/20 ... C_4931.JPG">

bj94 · Post by **bj94** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:13 pm

So I have to try another way to post the photo

http://www.confederatesixgunners.com/20 ... C_4931.JPG

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:39 pm

44LVR wrote:
2ndovc wrote:I like the shoulder holster idea. I've been looking for one for the SBH in a WWII tanker style. Saw one somewhere. No idea who made it.
El Paso Saddlery

44

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!

jb

Wes · Post by **Wes** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:17 pm

I hunt in that country and there are plenty of grizz. I don't go anywhere without my Redhawk 44 with 325gr hardcasts with lots of H110. It rides in a shoulder holster also. In the past I've had 45 LC Blackhawks and like them too, but double action is my choice now and this pistol with a 5 1/2" barrel works real well with those stout handloads.
My complaint about the Casull is what is shown in the photo of the woman shooting a Casull. Recoil. Recoil like that makes it tough for a followup. As stiff a load as I can make for the 44 still doesn't come up like that.
In my eyes and auto pistol is a liability. Few are chambered for stout enough cartriges and I don't want to bet my life on one not jamming. A 45 ACP won't get far enough into a grizz to do much other than pee him off unless you happen to land one in the brainpan. 40 S&W and 9mm are definitely light. Lot's of guys think the 44 Mag is too light. At times I carried this Redhawk with 300 grain XTP's seated to the rear cannelure and loaded them with some fairly obscene amounts of H110. With the long throat in this pistol it will work. Don't know about the Smith.

Rexster · Post by **Rexster** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:59 pm

Phil Shoemaker penned an article no too long ago in one of the Wolfe Publications magazines regarding handguns in grizzly country, and he indicated that a properly loaded .357 has its place, and is what his daughter carried at the time. Of course, that place is defense, at VERY close range, not hunting grizzly!

I have no experience in big-bear-land, so I am not recommending anything to anyone, just passing on wisdom from someone who lives and guides among the big bears. If I suddenly was offered the opportunity to go on walkabout in big-bear country, I would load hardcast penetrators into the same .357 DA revolving pistols I carry nowadays, for use against critters more dangerous than bears. That gives me something I can deploy quickly, in a long-familiar manner. Then, I would look into something bigger-bore to carry in a shoulder or tanker rig, or on a sling.

donw · Post by **donw** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:53 pm

I don't believe their ballistics were designed for hunting purposes either.[/quote]

keep in mind the .45 ACP was designed to "stop/kill" hostile moro indians in the PI as the .38 of the time wouldn't do it.

if it was developed to stop/kill people, i would surely think it would do the same with similar/smaller sized animals. maybe i'm wrong, though.

Camp Cook · Post by **Camp Cook** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:56 pm

Here is a picture of my remote area carry handguns.

(1) 4.25" Ruger SRH in 454 Casull with Crimson Trace laser grip with 405gr Beartooth WLNGC's @ 1330fps

(1) 7.5" Ruger SRH in 454 Casull with 355gr WLNGC's @ 1550fps I need to change the front sight height to a taller sight in order to shoot the heavier 405gr bullets to point of aim. To smoothly draw this gun from the short holsters I needed to leave the tapered factory site on.

How I carry the short gun in a Bob Mernickle cross draw and shoulder holster the long gun will fit the same short holster but the barrel sticks out a bit I normally carry the long gun in a cheap Uncle Mikes holster.

Both holsters are designed to hold the gun in almost the exact same position and have the same thumb snap release design.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:04 pm

I live near grizzly country and wanted a bear defense gun. I ended up with a 5" 629 "Classic" that I load with 300gr hard cast bullets to 1180fps. The recoil is just short of the amount that would get me flinching.

I got a little tired of hauling a 45oz gun around so went shopping and came up with a Freedom Arms 97 in .45 Colt, 4 1/4" barrel and fixed sights. Very packable, and 12 oz lighter. The grip is Bisleyish but turns out to be far worse than the Ruger Bisley for controlling recoil (I have shot a Linebaugh .500 and it was not bad at all). There was the added factor of not wanting to scratch such a pretty and expensive gun. And the fixed sights were not regulated well for me.

I'm back with the Smith. Hard to beat a gun like that. And double action really makes more sense.

One thing maybe worth trying is magnaporting your 629, so you can load it hotter or shoot faster.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:35 pm

Wow, some of the responses here are startling.

I would never even consider the 45 ACP or Glock in that part of the country, and yes, I've camped out there in some remote areas.

A 45 Long Colt +P load in a Ruger would be adequate with the right bullet (I use Punch Bullets and a load of H110). A 44 Mag is OK, and the 454 Casull is a great choice if you can shoot one.

Bring the heaviest caliber you can shoot well. That would be my recommendation. You may need to practice.

-Tutt

Camp Cook · Post by **Camp Cook** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:54 pm

I am in grizzly country for about 6 month's a year and I have been doing a fair amount of thinking since I shot a 1000lbs grizzly 3 1/2 weeks ago and after I bowled out it's skull.

Now my goal and only shot/hit that I feel can stop a charge before the bear can get me is about a 3" X 5" dead center of the head.

I feel very strongly that I need a central nervous system hit to stop that animal so I need to brain it.

So basically I now feel that any round/firearm combo that you can draw and shoot fast and accurately and has enough thumping power to penetrate the skull will do the job.

After looking at the thickness of the skull I feel that any round used should be of a construction that it would penetrate to the brain what I mean is I do not know of any loads for the 45acp that will do the job and only specific specialty loads like heavy for caliber hard cast with the widest meplat should be used.

Examples and what I have used are 200gr WFNGC's in the 10mm, 300gr to 345gr WFNGC's in the 45 Colt and 300gr to 405gr WLNGC's in the 454 Casull.

Black bears are different I would still load up the 10mm's with hard cast bullets but when I move up to the 45 Colt I would use 300gr Gold Dot's or XTP's & in the 454 Casull's I would use 300gr Gold Dot's and XTP/Mag's.

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:03 pm

While I admit the .44 mag or .45 colt isnt the flat out best like the .454 mag, and some of those other new ones out that I havent tried, I belive in danceing with the one ya brung. I would feel well armed with your .44 mag s&w, or if need be your .45 colt uberti!
Of course, if you want a new gun, I can see that too! A nice worked over hopped up ruger or a freedom arms would be nice. Another option could be a s&w 25-5 in .45 colt happens to be lindbaughs personal favorite!
I have a s&w 29-2 in the rare 5" barrel that I really like the best. Probley my next best is a 4" barrel s&w 25-5, both shown here. I also own colt saa,s in .44 special and .45 colt, plus a number of s&ws in .44 special and I would carry any of them in that country.
By the way, I DID work for the national park service 47 years ago in the grand tetons, and we worked in the back country unarmed.

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:39 pm

Thanks for the great responses!! To be frank, I've hunted the same area for 15 years and only saw one black bear and he was puny. I know there are big guys out there but I'm usually packing out with my brother or a friend. I've been using my Model 29 in a cross draw. The shoulder rig won't work for me because the elk quarters are tied to an aluminum pack frame and would be in the way.
I don't reload

but I was given about 1500 rounds of Winchester 240 grain jacketed soft points. One year I purchased some hot factory loads at the recommendation of a gun store owner. When I shot them, my cylinder would seize up and bind. I quit shooting it immediately and went back to lighter loads. I shoot my 44 very well and recoil has never been a problem. Like I said in my original post, it's more want than need. With a b'day coming up, I may get a Freedom Arms premier grade 454. I really like the one bj94 posted.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:08 pm

Frankly, I would NOT like to fire a Ruger (or any DA) .454 with "Grizzly loads". Ever.

My FA load of a 350gr WFN over 31gr H110/W296 was cranking along at nigh 1700fps from a 7.5"... and only a hair slower fom my 6". That's about 2200ftlbs ME.

To shoot that, the gun's got to ROLL... and a DA don't.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:13 pm

jkbrea wrote:Thanks for the great responses!! To be frank, I've hunted the same area for 15 years and only saw one black bear and he was puny. I know there are big guys out there but I'm usually packing out with my brother or a friend. I've been using my Model 29 in a cross draw. The shoulder rig won't work for me because the elk quarters are tied to an aluminum pack frame and would be in the way.
I don't reload but I was given about 1500 rounds of Winchester 240 grain jacketed soft points. One year I purchased some hot factory loads at the recommendation of a gun store owner. When I shot them, my cylinder would seize up and bind. I quit shooting it immediately and went back to lighter loads. I shoot my 44 very well and recoil has never been a problem. Like I said in my original post, it's more want than need. With a b'day coming up, I may get a Freedom Arms premier grade 454. I really like the one bj94 posted.

The Field Grades are just fine so long as you dump the Paychmars for good Wood. I also prefer the matte finish. Really, with the Premier Grade what you are buying is the Lifetime warrantee.

As for not reloading, that's OK. Just buy your Bear Medicine from Buffalo Bore or Grizzley Cartridge. They have proper crimps and shouldn't bind up your gun.

44LVR · Post by **44LVR** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:45 am

bogus bill wrote: Probley my next best is a 4" barrel s&w 25-5, shown here.

Hey Bill, if I may ask, could you tell me more about your grips on the .45? I have a 624 with a square butt that I would like to put something similiar on. Don't like the factory grips, of course, and don't like the pachmyrs or Hogues I've felt.

Thanks.

44

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:07 pm

44lvr: I bought those grips 20 years ago at a gunshow, they are faux ivory with no company markings. I recently bought a pair for this model 24-3 from eagle. Think they might have the style on the 25-5 too.

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:12 pm

Here are a couple more I have on N frames that I like.

44LVR · Post by **44LVR** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:08 pm

Thanks for the info, Bill. I shall peruse the eagle grip website and see what I can find!

44

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:56 pm

If you absolutely have to have a Double Action, try a Taurus Tracker in 44 Mag with a 4" barrel. It's ported so it's easier to get it back on target, it holds 5 rounds, and you can pack it all day, it'll only set you back about $450.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:17 pm

Rexster, Phil has it right. Ive had 2 close calls, I live & hunt and chase cows in griz county, when you have a problem with a griz it is going to be up close and personel sow & cubs or a bear forted up on a dead animal; rifle, shotgun and long barreled hoglegs aint worth squat when your rolling around being slapped and chewed on. Short barrel DA 357 with 180 or 185 hardcast gaschecked bullets works for me I have a gp100 3" ,get 1310 fps with little/gun powder under the above bullet. Or buy Buffalo Bore or Double Tap ammo, by the way Buffalo Bores 180 357 will shoot thru as far as the 44 Buffalo Bore tested them side by side. I have a big boar griz that visits my outfit on occasion makes you think before you leave the porch to get a armload of firewood for the night. danny

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:50 pm

Lots of good suggestions here, although I personally would stay away from semi-auto type loads. Heavy .357, .45 Colt and .44 mag are about as low as I would go. I am not a big .454 , .460 or .480 fan but I'm sure they would work also. Living and working in Wyoming all my life I seen more than one Griz, but most of the time all I saw was the south end of a north bound bear. I was always glad.

My personal choices over the years has always been a big Ruger SA in either .45 Colt or .44 mag. Buffalo Bore has made both more effective. If I had to choose one today, I would probably pick my 4 5/8" SBH .44 mag.

I have always liked the SA, but I have also used a Ruger Redhawk 5 1/2", .44 mag, but if you go to the big Redhawks, you may as well stay with your S&W.

The best choice may be to have a couple of friends help with packing out the meat. The best shot should carry a heavy rifle or a short shotgun with slugs as many do in Alaska.