Paco and Jim's Winchester 45 Colt Government Ammo

[Bryan Austin]

https://www.leverguns.com/articles/tayl ... t_colt.htm

I read Jim's article about the 45 Colt Government ammo ever so often to try and keep it fresh in my brain. This last time I read it I decided to try an maybe get a close date for the deteriorated ammo box. Jim please chime in if you know the date!!!!

Here ui the box


Jim stated they were filled with black powder and that coincides with Winchester's "Green" top label. Winchester labels black powder loads with green labels. Not sure when Winchester ceases manufacture of black powder loads but it was somewhere between early 1920's and 1928ish.

The top appears to be of the type that fully encases the box, evident of the "1920" box used between 1920-1927

The K-code, whats left of it, can be seen on the bottom of the right flap. It could be K4545T. Winchester switched to the K-code system in 1920.

The "label" on those "two-piece" boxes...as you can partially see, covers the top, wraps around the ends and lapped over the bottom, sealing the box. Again, part of the "1920" design.

The "RED W" on the end label started in 1906 and was common, overprinting the cartridge cut, between 1906-1915/WWI era. After about 1915-1920, the cartridge cut was removed and the red "W" was overprinted by cartridge name call-outs as is seen in the 45 Colt Government photo.

Still an interesting piece for more than just the long Colt short Colt argument!

My guess is that the date of manufacture of this box would be between 1921 and 1925.

Jim also states that Kieth made a statement in "Sixguns", page 285, about Remington...not Winchester!

There were other shorter 45 Colt cartridge manufactures...at least three in total Winchester 45 short Colt cartridge. (notice I said short, not Short!!!)
Guy Hildebrand,a.k.a. Oldammoguy shows photos of all three. https://www.oldammo.com/march08.htm

Headstamps
1. Jim's "WRA Co. 45 Colt" (Black Powder)
2. "REM-UMC 45 Colt" (Smokeless Powder)
3. "Peters 45 C. Govt" (Black Powder)

Can anyone confirm any dates?

I honestly think this is were the tern 45 long Colt comes from. (notice I said long not Long??)....later than we think, probably in the 1920's...right in the midst of Elmer Kieth's 20 year old youth days.

[JimT]

I believe that you hit it pretty durn close. I never had a date for them but you've got it pretty well nailed down.

About a month ago I was digging through an old box of stuff and came across the cartridges in the photo. I had put them away in a safe place and forgot about them.

[Bryan Austin]

I believe that you hit it pretty durn close. I never had a date for them but you've got it pretty well nailed down.

About a month ago I was digging through an old box of stuff and came across the cartridges in the photo. I had put them away in a safe place and forgot about them.

Thanks Jim!

I did find them listed in the Winchester "World Standard Guns and Ammunition" Catalog 83 dated 1925. No mention of them in my next catalog, 1938.

[JimT]

Thanks for that Bryan. That's pretty definitive.

[Bryan Austin]

You are welcome, thanks for sharing those photos!!!

To be clear, the "17NF" is the primer used, not a cartridge code.

[Bryan Austin]

Oh, the M1873 and Schofield revolvers were long superseded by the Model 1909 when this particular 1920's ammo was manufactured, thus the shorter cartridge was still being used by the Military well into the 1920's.

[Bryan Austin]

This box is dated 10-21, Oct 1921