Is killing power quantifiable?

[BlackShadow]

I don't believe that "Killing Power" is quantifiable.

However; knowing the available energy of any round is the first step in working out any theory.

The energy generated by a jet engine is divided between thrust and lift. Decrees the need for lift and more energy is available for going faster. A bullet is the same. There is a finite amount of energy available in any bullet. Whatever is happening while a bullet is sawing and tearing it's way through flesh, has to be accomplished before the available energy is depleted. So, a little more energy probably does not hurt.

Regardless of bullet design, or construction, a .22 rimfire cannot possibly possess enough energy to get through a bull elephants skull, to execute a brain shot; a .460 Weatherby does. I've read most of the prevailing theories on killing power. What is not usually discussed is the physiology of the animal being killed. A .22 rimfire is adequate for taking white tail deer in an ambush situation. A .22 tends to be a good one shot killer because people tend to get allot closer when using under powered guns. Closer = better bullet placement.

In P. O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders: volume 1, Ackley talks about a .17 Remington being a better one shot killer of wild horse, at 600 yards, then a .30-06. John Taylor talks about "knock out" power of various large caliber cartridges on dangerous game. Of course KO power depends primarily upon bullet placement. Lead shooters will tell you lead is a better killer then jacket bullets. This discussion has been on going for a century, or more, and will likely continue till particle beam weapons are the norm.

I suspect 90% of killing potential is found in bullet placement and in the physiology of the game animal at the time it is taken. Back around 1953 (I believe), the largest grizzly bear was taken that year with a .22 rimfire; in an ambush. Every animal in North America has been taken again and again with a .22. I suspect no one on this forum would face a charging Griz with a .22. A sleeping griz is another story. A .22 rimfire doesn't possess allot of kinetic energy; though it's capible of killing cleanly. This depends allot upon the animals physiology at the moment it is shot.

When an animal becomes excited, it releases adrenaline, and other chemicals, into the blood stream. A wounded animal will release chemicals that are a thousand times more powerful then opiate based narcotics. They essentially feel no pain after the first shot. A weapon that is adequate for "taking" an animal in normal hunting conditions might not seem adequate when following up a dangerous wounded animal in dense bush. When following up a wounded lion, you might want to leave your Weatherby rifle in the truck and carry a 10 gauge double barrel shotgun.

I stated at the beginning of this post that I do not believe killing power is quantifiable. The reason I feel this way is because to many complex variables are involved. Bullet placement is a huge variable. Condition such as weather, bush and topography is a huge variable. Animal physiology is perhaps the most difficult variable of all. Some animals can run off on three legs, pulling their guts along behind them! Other just plop over. The best any of us can do is prepare for as many variables as possible. Select a gun that is adequate and enjoyable to hunt with. Load it with adequate, proven bullets. Learn to shoot as well as possible. Read as much about the behavior of the game animal being hunted, and the condition of the hunt area. Then go have a good time.

[Hobie]

If you look at the number of game animals on which a cartridge has been used successfully...

[CowboyTutt]

Nice post, BS (sorry, I couldn't resist ) Seriously, well said.

Then again, those "long skinny looks-like-a-cleaning rod" wound channels really do it for me!

-Tutt

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I found myself typing this response but then ...

[Andrew]

I'm pretty green in the field but I have read a fair amount about the same things that you have talked about and I agree with you. Lots of practical thought put into it.

[O.S.O.K.]

Killing power is most definately quantifiable. It's just that the parameters are such that its very difficult to be exact.

But within a generous margin of error, yes I believe it is.

Consider the 30-30 Winchester and the .338 Winchester.

The .338 posesses quite a bit more potential killing power than the 30-30 - just exactly how much is hard to nail down though.

So, really I agree with most of what you wrote there, just not the end conclusion. Matter of degree I guess.

[KirkD]

I suppose we could get the stop watch out and time how long it takes for the target to hit the ground.

[86er]

Dead is dead. Refer to previous posts summarizing Dead Right There, Dead as a Door Nail, etc.

[piller]

And is it good to eat afterward? Once you all figure out how dead is dead enough, I'll help you grill it. Sorry, but I just don't think there will be a total consensus because we all have different experiences. For me, I kind of think those with lots of experience know enough to be worth listening to.

[Old Savage]

86er has provided the most detailed writing on experience with a number of any kind of animal they hunt and various ranges and shot placement and results.

It is what you can reasonably expect and depend upon to happen with a particular cartridge not what some one said happened once.

Personally I think what I read here of the 30-30 is overrated and would not carry over to say the hunting in this area where a 250 yd shot is common. Not that someone didn't kill a ____ at what they thought was 250 yds.

[CowboyTutt]

Oh, come on Old Savage! You were there when I shot through that 3 foot tree trunk to kill that escaping Grizzly bear with my thurdy thurdy! The bullet went clean through the tree AND the bear!

Just kidding guys. But sometimes we do let our enthusiasm for tradition get away with us!

I'm with the experienced guys who do this for a living!

-Tutt

[Jaguarundi]

A well placed shot to the games CNS (Central Nervous System ie Brain/spinalcord)is a sure one shot stopper.Hence W.D.Bells success with a 6.5 mannlicher and later 275 Rigby(275 Rigby cartridge is nothing more than a 7mm Mauser case loaded with a Rigby 175 gr Rnd nose FMJ bullet)on Elephants.But he picked his situations carefully and placed his shoots with surgical precision into the tuskers brain.But he was the exceptional shooter.So refer to the professional hunter for the prey you hunt.The really bigame dangerous game animals the largest/heaviest bullet that will break thick bone and totally penetrate to spew blood while pitching chunks of bone and flesh onto the African plains gets the logical nod.(375 H&H and up)For Cape Buffalo just drilling a small hole(unless its the Brain)will not cut it.I read 20years ago in NRA's Riflemans Magazine of a gent that tried a M1 Garand with Military Ball on a Dugga Bull.The gun was empty when the Bull dropped(The last round busted a second knee cap-seems Cape buff can't charge with only two legs !)!While a MD Friend of mine likes to pissoff the Dugga to charge and drop'em at his feet with a well placed shot to the Cape's Head from his 454 Casull FA revolver .(Some need more Spice-Colonel Jeff Cooper).So factors involved are also the Wit or Foolishness and Skill or Inability of the Hunter.

[El Chivo]

Personally I like the idea of just enough power to do the job, and do the rest with skill.

For example, you can hunt rabbits with your 45-70, but why? Don't want to skin them yourself?

Of course the main consideration is the humane kill.

[BlackShadow]

A pitifully inadequate weapon in the hands of a skilled hunter can be lethal.

The opposite is also true.

[adirondakjack]

I think some of us try to shave this killing power bit too fine, and get ourselves in trouble in the process. Comparing .44 mag to .45 Colt, or .30-06 to 8MM Mauser on any "killing power" scale is largely a waste of time.

Sure, anybody would recognize that the .458 Lott is a "more lethal" round than a .22 short, but when we start trying to strain the hundreds of rounds out there, some of which are slow, others fat, most with a variety of bullets available, it gets messy.

I favor more the "fish line" approach, where a table of rounds would be crossed with potential game, so that for any specific cartridge ya get a bunch of boxes shaded... Looking to hunt rabbits, you find that everything from .22 RF to .410 shotgun is on the list. Wanna hunt caribou? Ya won't find .22RF or .410 shotgun, but will find a bunch of cartridges like .30-06, .7MM mag, etc.

In other words, leave the adolescent "mine's bigger than yours" nonsense behind and just recognize that every gun has some limitations and best uses, every possible quarry can be taken with a variety of rounds, and GET OVER IT.

[Old Ironsights]

I like the aticle.

3 "A"s of whether or not you can kill somthing quickly:

Amount of bone/heavy hide you have to shoot through:

Attitude (Animals/Humans who think they are going to die tend to quite readily)

Adrenaline

Not much of the above and a .177 Pellet Gun works fine.

Lots of all three means you need a bigger gun.

[Paladin]

Very good information. I concur with the CNS (Central Nervous System) requirement for death. A living machine requires you to disconnect the electrical system (CNS), the Hydraulic system (Blood Loss), or break the frame (skeletal destruction) to immobilize (does not always kill). I prefer CNS which requires very accurate bullet placement and not always a large hole. Hydraulic failure requires either time to bleed out or a larger hole. Not including hydrostatic shock into the blood loss, I do not want to have to track or loose a target with Murphy getting involved with bullet performance. If the gun cracks I want the target to drop on the spot with no movement possible. (I don’t always get what I want.) So you have to consider what end result you are looking for to factor in the killing power of a load or caliber requirement.

[Texican]

Yes, killing power is quantifiable. It's a binary system (i.e.: "Is the animal dead or alive after the shot?") If the animal is dead, then killing power has been established. However, it's the incalculable number of variables in the equation that prevent accurate prediction of the results. Thus, we allow for an appropriate margin of error (using enough gun) based on multiple previous observations.

[lever-4-life]

I know that the 30WCF, 30-06, and .30 carbine can kill deer. I have killed deer with all of those rounds and have been pleased with their "Killing Power". I have been present when the 25-35, .300 savage, 250-3000, .257 roberts, .270, .308, 7mm mag, and .300 mag have made meat. They all worked fine, I have only seen one deer lost and it happend with a 7 mag. I have known the hunter for years and I know he knows his limitations, the deer was hit at about 125 yards jumped and ran. We found a blood trail that we lost about 1/4 mile later. Was it his fault? The Bullet? The rifle/scope? We will never know. The deer I have shot with the 30-30 or 30-06 have all been D.R.T. while the Two carbine bucks went about 5 yards and tipped over.

In the end I think It is shooter ability that is "Killing power"

[Old Time Hunter]

How do you ambush hunt? I haven't heard that one before....is it something new? Do you hide in a hole and pop up in front or behind the critter?

Never thought it wise to use a tack hammer when a sledge hammer is available. Then again, those 'ole hunters back in the cave days used rocks!

[BlackShadow]

When a deer hunter uses a deer stand, he is ambush hunting. Basically you sit still and wait for the animal to wonder by; effectively setting up an ambush. This is very much in contrast to the 'fox' being chased by the 'hounds.' In an ambush, game animals have lower blood pressure and no extra adrenaline flowing, making them easier to kill.

[t.r.]

I took this cow elk with my 357 MAG revolver. Two shots. First bullet struck the crease behind the shoulder. The animal had been walking slowly (broadside) about 50 feet from me. The animal flinched and trotted forward. My second shot struck farther back and did not strike the chest organs. The animal galloped away as if unhurt. I waited 30 minutes and took up the trail. The animal was found about 150 yards away and dead as Julius Caesar.

Observations during field dressing:
- 1st bullet broke a rib, and punched a thumb sized hole through both lungs.
- 2nd bullet tore the diaphram and punched a thumb sized hole in the liver.
- Much blood was observed within the chest cavity.

Is 357 MAG ideal for elk hunting? NO.

But in this case, a good bullet smashed through the chest wall with sufficient force to destroy the lungs and other vital organs. After this experience, I reached this conclusion: elk can be taken at archery distance with a 357 MAG revolver. My bullets are AT LEAST as effective as a modern arrows.

What's the point? A bullet must smash through the chest wall to reach vital chest organs. But diameter of bullet, weight of bullet, speed of bullet are not nearly as important as some would believe.

TR

[donw]

you guys have it all wrong!!! congress knows that the evil, black, Assault weapons are more deadly than the average 30-30 or 30-06...

it's true WDM Bell, wally johnson, corbett, sasha seimel, pretorius, selous, patterson all took big dangerous game with small caliber "light' rifles and it's also true they concentrated on shot placment; that's just good hunting skill.

if you'll look in the book about "the lions of tsavo", you'll find where patterson used his .303 british to 'drill' holes in railroad rails as they had no drill to assemble a cage to 'trap the lions'...not bad for a .303, eh? it make sense that a correctly placed shot with a bullet from something along those lines will kill...instantly, without remorse or hesitation.

johnson tells of a young man who used a .22 Jet/Hornet to drop a cape buff with a single shot behind the ear...

there's lots of examples around of large vs small calibers in killing...i opt for PRECISE bullet/arrow placement no matter the caliber/poundage i'm using.