POLITICS - Court: Texas wrongly seized sect children

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Thu May 22, 2008 2:50 pm

More sane heads seem to be prevailing:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095

Gotta wonder how this will play out. By the way I do not advocate their lifestyle in any way or form, but I do believe in due process and innocent UNTIL proven guilty.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu May 22, 2008 2:57 pm

It's about time. I just hope the mothers and children are able to file and win expensive lawsuits against the CPS, and local [place group that is unmentionable until June here].

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:30 pm

It appears that the current system is working. Even the Psychiatrists that the CPS fired said that the children were not being abused.

I know this will create some controversy, but I would rather see 5 guilty go free on a technicality than to have 1 innocent put in prison. Feel free to disagree with me, but let's be gentlemen about it.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:38 pm

piller wrote:It appears that the current system is working. Even the Psychiatrists that the CPS fired said that the children were not being abused.

I know this will create some controversy, but I would rather see 5 guilty go free on a technicality than to have 1 innocent put in prison. Feel free to disagree with me, but let's be gentlemen about it.

I understand the concept, but what if one of the five had abused YOUR child? Puts it in a little different light. The kids have no other protectors, other than the state, when they ARE being abused. That's why CPS has become SO OVERBEARING.

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:52 pm

Well, a Pediatrician made my daughter deaf, and I could do nothing because of the laws in the state where it happened. I am still angry, but the Pediatrician went totally scott-free. The laws required proof that no other physician was willing to provide as it would open them up to malpractice suits, so they closed ranks and said too bad.

Here in Texas, an innocent man was recently released from prison after some innocence project proved he was innocent, but in the years he was in prison the other prisoners beat him and kicked him in the head. The innocent wrongly convicted man is now unable to care for himself. Do we want to allow that to happen to even one more innocent victim ever again?

Sending an innocent to prison is still a horrific crime to me, even if a guilty person must go free. Besides, the Pediatrician who made my daughter go deaf had a stroke about 10 years after I moved away from there and the last I heard was that he was confined to a wheelchair and could not talk, nor communicate. Maybe he received his punishment from a higher authority.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu May 22, 2008 4:40 pm

It's amazing to me that anyone could even contemplate that on a whim, ripping off a couple hundred of a group's children could be in the best interests of the children. It's insane. It's the parents that are to protect the children from the government, not the other way around.

Unless, and until there is CREDIBLE evidence of a crime VERIFIABLY committed or in commission.

Think about it. You're out in a scout banquet field eating your baked beans and roast beef and all of a sudden shock-troops show up, surround you, and steal all your children. And over in the phone booth is little johnny, who thinks it's funny.

If it can happen to their group, it will also happen to yours. Something about going around.

I don't think there's a cell dank enough to chuck the perpetrators of that 'official' abduction scheme into.

No ill will or hate speech was used in the expression of the writer's personal opinions, and no one was named or explcitly pointed out as being a crass, no-good, thing scum-sucking bureaucratic parasite. Reading this waiver signifies that the reader agrees with the content and intent of the post, and entirely indemnifies the writer against any liability for anyone's feelings.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu May 22, 2008 4:41 pm

Shhhhhhh!

You will annoy the Governmentarians!...

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu May 22, 2008 5:01 pm

OI, while I agree with you, shouldn't we be acting like every one here is family and trying to bite our tongues at times. I'm not afraid of controversy, but didn't some get upset a while back. I am not trying to make you change your attitude or anything, as I said I agree with you. Lets just give everyone a chance to cool off. What do you say? Besides, the Judge seems to agree with you, too.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu May 22, 2008 6:57 pm

As I have said before, this whole situation is nothing more than an exercise in bigotry, and an aggessive denial of human rights by the state of Texas using the threat and force of arms.

It is gratifying that these several Americans had the courage to stand up to the system to protect their children from the state sanctioned goons and perverts who so gleefully abused these families and kidnapped their children.

May they each die screaming and then suffer eternity in perdition's flames.

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Thu May 22, 2008 7:36 pm

piller wrote:It appears that the current system is working.

+1

And that is what should happen. You may not like how or why the first steps were taken (though all the discussion here is still, I believe, without any actual facts), but it certainly appears that the Court did its job. (Just remember this next time someone is bashing a judge about a decision he doesn't like!)

Michael in NH

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:23 pm

When each and every bureaucrat, administrator, and officer involved in this crime, from the governor to whomever answers the phones at the state capitol is unemployed and in prison, there will be evidence that "the system" works.

When that doesn't happen, and these thugs aren't even brought up on charges of official abuse, that will be even further proof the system does in fact NOT work.

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:38 pm

What I am waiting on is to find oud if CPS loses in court and if they then follow court orders. I am not going to hold my breath for it. Next, will the original caller be prosecuted, or will the state law be ignored. Texas has a law that a fraudulent call to CPS is a felony. I think I will just wait.

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:42 pm

I live north of San Antonio so have been paying attention to this case. 38 mothers filed an appeal and the court agreed that the state used too broad a brush when they went after every child without any evidence other than an anonymous phone call. Of course, the state will now appeal the reversal so it will drag on. The underlying issue is that the govt. has been trying to shut down Eldorado ever since the LDS moved in so it's no real surprise that they moved before they had a strong case - that and the fact CPS thinks they are above the law.

JohnnyReb · Post by **JohnnyReb** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:43 pm

I guess I was the guilty party who broached this subject several weeks ago. I was always outraged by the broadbrush and over-reaching conduct of the CPS in Texas.

Only one-half the system has worked so far....... The appellate court recognized the illegal conduct of the CPS. As for the second part: I hope there will be some dismissals of CPS officials and then lawsuits with judgments large enough to make the State think twice before doing this again.......

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:30 pm

If I went to the CPS and LEO and others houses who perpetrated this crime
and took their children to a place of my choosing what do you think would happen?

BINGO....I'd be in jail for a couple lifetimes for however many counts of kidnapping.

Exactly who are they that they can ignore the LAW?

Justice was not done, and they will IGNORE the injustice.

I say they were just stretching their muscles and getting folks used to the
kind of help they can expect in the future.

How did our society function without CPS for so long, I wonder.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:55 pm

We can all feel the most negative things and express our disapproving opinions about people or institutions as we want. It's our right. But, I feel if we can't offer a solution, we are just part of the problem. It's easy to sit back in the comfort of our home and poke holes in their thinking and actions, but... somehow, I feel there was probably a LOT more to the story than was let released to the media. I don't believe it serves a lot to jump to conclusions. Not saying they didn't also, but as I said on another thread, I'd rather have them error on the side of the child's safety than through inaction by worryin' about what folks would say.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:04 pm

Griff wrote:We can all feel the most negative things and express our disapproving opinions about people or institutions as we want. It's our right. But, I feel if we can't offer a solution, we are just part of the problem. It's easy to sit back in the comfort of our home and poke holes in their thinking and actions, but... somehow, I feel there was probably a LOT more to the story than was let released to the media. I don't believe it serves a lot to jump to conclusions. Not saying they didn't also, but as I said on another thread, I'd rather have them error on the side of the child's safety than through inaction by worryin' about what folks would say.

Griff, there is a fundamental flaw with your thoughts. Giving up any Liberty for any reason is always opening the way for further abuses. It's my observance that people are never more willing to give up Liberties than if it's "for the children", so that is the reason given. First the Davidians, now the FLDS. What we see is a systematic process of intimidation of folks who keep their children out of the public school system. These people had half their Constitutional rights violated, and as far as I know there is nowhere written in The Constitution or anywhere in the Bill of Rights an exception to viloate those fundamental human rights if someone believes children are involved.

I for one do not appreciate it that anyone takes my Liberties so lightly as to cast them aside for unfounded rumors.

Your right Griff, there is more to this situation than is being told, it's religious discrimination by the local Baptists. I have this from a friend who is not prone to tall tales who has lived and worked in the area all his life.

bunklocoempire · Post by **bunklocoempire** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:25 pm

Just throwin this out there, just a comment in general, perhaps as punishments for crimes against people where there truly is a victim have

gotten lighter (from what I read) so goes the vigilence of protecting our Liberties.

Bunkloco

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:29 pm

sore shoulder,

I think you missed my point. I would prefer that CPS err in taking a child out of a potentially dangerous situation, than later have to fill out a report about a dead child. I'm not talking about giving up a liberty or right. I don't believe the "system" is any better at raising kids than parents are; far less so in my opinion. But... some parents are raising "broken" children, then turning the little monsters loose on society.

As a deputy, I did everything I could to keep from putting a kid into the "system", as I don't like it... but there were times when it IS necessary to forcibly take a child from a parent or parents.

I'm glad that we agree that we don't know all the specifics about this situation. And, for that reason alone, I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback the decisions.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:56 pm

Griff wrote:sore shoulder,

I think you missed my point. I would prefer that CPS err in taking a child out of a potentially dangerous situation, than later have to fill out a report about a dead child. I'm not talking about giving up a liberty or right. I don't believe the "system" is any better at raising kids than parents are; far less so in my opinion. But... some parents are raising "broken" children, then turning the little monsters loose on society.

As a deputy, I did everything I could to keep from putting a kid into the "system", as I don't like it... but there were times when it IS necessary to forcibly take a child from a parent or parents.

I'm glad that we agree that we don't know all the specifics about this situation. And, for that reason alone, I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback the decisions.

But Griff, in order for CPS to err, they have to violate. IOW, if it's possible they might err, it's because they dont have all their facts or ducks in a row, something you had to do as a deputy before serving a warrant I imagine. And I have seen the system from the wrong side, trust me, it's more often worse than not. There are some real pathetic excuses for human beings in the foster care industry, and thats as nice as I can put it on this board.

In this case there was never any evidence the children wee in danger, and CPS admitted it. Their sole reason for the raid was concern over how the children were being raised religously, they actually admitted it. Yet they could care less about underage gangbanging drug addicts having babies.

I am perfectly comfortable armchair quarterbacking, or as I like to call it, exercising my inalienable right question the government overstepping it's authority. We need more questioning and less acceptance that if the govt is involved, they must be guilty of something.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu May 22, 2008 11:15 pm

The brush was too broad.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Thu May 22, 2008 11:25 pm

The whole problem with "erring" or "for the children" is they KNEW they were
erring when they went in.

One questionable phone call with no other backup proof allows your home to
be RAIDED. For the love......

I always here "I'd rather..." when folks are trying to smooth over something.
Not picking on ya Griff just the words, I utter them also.

I don't like the religion they practice, I also assume there is pedophilia happening
there also. These "feelings" I have don't give me the right to bash in doors,
once the Gov. starts acting on suspicions with no proof these things happen.

This is the reason we invented "investigations". There are plenty of legal
ways to aquire information enough to obtain a warrant.

One phone call shouldn't fit the requirements.

Pray they don't get suspicious about us.

As far as coming up with a solution, here's an Idea, they should have followed
the law. That would be the ultimate solution to the problem.

I know I rant sometimes, but I'm sick and tired about trying to live my daily
life worrying if I might be breaking some law that I haven't heard of and
makes no sense. THEN being forced to sit back and observe those who
know and make the law and disregard it at their whim, obvious ones no less.

Hitler and Stalin and Polpot and others loved to send in the troops over a
neighbor accusing another of something. This is how they cleansed their societies.
It worked VERY well for them.

We are supposed to be better than this

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:02 am

The Texas law is quite specific as to what circumstances must exist before a child can be removed from the parents. In the case at hand, none of those circumstances existed and therefore the removal of the children was illegal. The authorities in this case, just didn't follow the law.

The issue of whether or not underage women had sex with adult males is still very much up in the air and I expect that issue to be in play for quite some time.

In the meantime, the children will be returned to their parents and the civil law suits against the State of Texas will start to fly fast and furious.

I am glad that the rule of law has prevailed. If the law doesn't cover the circumstances, you go to the legislature and get the law rewritten. You don't rewrite the law on the spot to suit your fancy.

It is always a good day when the rule of law wins over emotion, prejudice and media hype. I still consider the FLDS to be a bunch of Kooks, but in this country, you can be a Kook, if you don't violate the law in the process.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:09 am

Charles wrote:The Texas law is quite specific as to what circumstances must exist before a child can be removed from the parents. In the case at hand, none of those circumstances existed and therefore the removal of the children was illegal. The authorities in this case, just didn't follow the law.

The issue of whether or not underage women had sex with adult males is still very much up in the air and I expect that issue to be in play for quite some time.

In the meantime, the children will be returned to their parents and the civil law suits against the State of Texas will start to fly fast and furious.

I am glad that the rule of law has prevailed. If the law doesn't cover the circumstances, you go to the legislature and get the law rewritten. You don't rewrite the law on the spot to suit your fancy.

It is always a good day when the rule of law wins over emotion, prejudice and media hype. I still consider the FLDS to be a bunch of Kooks, but in this country, you can be a Kook, if you don't violate the law in the process.

Charles, you are a bright shining star of sanity and common sense. Thank you for giving me hope there are others out there who understand Liberty.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:26 am

The courts did their job. Amazing how that works!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:44 am

El Mac wrote:The courts did their job. Amazing how that works!

At the expense of hundreds of children being torn away from their mothers at gunpoint and dispersed all over Texas.

If the Courts had done their job, the Warrant would have never been issued.

Generally, an anonymous phone call, supported by surrounding facts, could be probable cause for ONE person or home, but I find it a humongous stretch to say that one phone call and one potential victim and criminal can be applied to an entire community. Its overkill. You dont use a sledgehammer to kill a fly. Its not reasonable to take an anonymous report from one possible victim and seize hundreds of kids. Parents have rights, even when they are wierd, which clearly these folks are.

Obviously it isnt right to have sex with a 14 year old. If and when .gov gets probable cause to suspect that an individual does such a thing, they are completely justified in acting against that person. In this case, even after destroying the lives of hundreds, they still dont know if anyone is being abused that they didnt already know about.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:05 am

El Mac wrote:The courts did their job. Amazing how that works!

No. Ordering the arrest of the CPS and [unmentionable till June] for false arrest, false imprisonment, and kidnapping would be doing their job.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:52 am

It's amazing how the state gives free birth control, abortions, and medical care to girls having babies in the school systems and no one from CPS has their panties twisted up over that inconvenient truth.

In every other segment of adolescent society the "service" sector has done everything possible to assure predators that that age of girls is available and willing to have sex.

Two faced is too kind but too precise ....

Grizz

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri May 23, 2008 11:56 am

Ironsights.... There was no arrest warrant from a court in this case. This is a civil proceeding and the law grants the Child Protective Service the emergency power to remove a child from a harmful environment if certain statutory conditions exist.

The CPS must then file in District Court for the authority to retain custody of the children, and a hearing hele. This must be done in just a few days. The CPS did this, and the District Judge found in favor of the CPS.

A group of of mothers appealed the District Court decision to the Court of Civil Appeals which found the District Court was in error, and that the statutory conditions were not presence and ordered the return of the children to their parents.

I now understand the CPS has appealed the Court of Civil Appeals decision to the Texas Supreme Court which will decided if the District Court or the Court of Cvil Appeals got it right. I suspect the Texas Supreme Court with sustain the Appeals Court ruling, but that remains to be seen.

The legal issue is whether or not the CPS violated the law in taking the children from their parents.

The Texas legal system is working as designed. The Child Protective Service is just that. It's charge to to look after the best interest of the Children. They are not the Parent Protective Service. They may be over zealous at time, and overstep their authority as it appears to have done in this case, but they are not Jack Booted thugs. Just a bunch of folks trying to take care of the kids. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they fit it wrong. The Court system gets to decide which.

Again, this is Civil and there is no arrest warrant. If, at some point in times there is evidence that an adult abused a child in violation of the Criminal law, a warrant will be issued for the arrest of that person, criminal charges will be filed and the game is afoot. Talley Ho the fox!!

This whole things is not a struggle between good and evil, dark and light, it is just the legal system working to protect the rights of the kids and the rights of the parents. When it is all over, the chances are about 95% that the right thing will be done.

I have noticed that more than a few folks are filtering this whole thing through their own particular bias and prejudice. Prejudice being used in the litteral sense of "pre-judging" a situation witihout regard to the individual fact.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:23 pm

I am completely mystified how this can be a civil case by any stretch of the imagination when the CPS is a govt organization acting with the authority of the state. If it is civil, then the CPS would have to be a civilian organization, making their actions completely criminal. In any event, the 1st, 4th, and 14th amendments of those folks have not just been violated, but utterly and completely ignored. How anyone cannot see this and not be angered by it is beyond me. To call the actions of the govt heinous would be a kind remark.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:26 pm

Charles wrote:...The Texas legal system is working as designed. The Child Protective Service is just that. It's charge to to look after the best interest of the Children. They are not the Parent Protective Service. They may be over zealous at time, and overstep their authority as it appears to have done in this case, but they are not Jack Booted thugs. Just a bunch of folks trying to take care of the kids. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they fit it wrong. The Court system gets to decide which.

And in the mean time, if the CPS was fonud to be "overzealous", kids who weren't suffering before, get to suffer at the hands of the State. Who "protected" those kids?

Again, this is Civil and there is no arrest warrant. If, at some point in times there is evidence that an adult abused a child in violation of the Criminal law, a warrant will be issued for the arrest of that person, criminal charges will be filed and the game is afoot. Talley Ho the fox!!

Great. And in the mean time, all thos kids of those parents who WEREN'T committing a crime get to suffer at the hands of the State - seperated from their parents at gunpoint. Who "protected" those kids?

But don't you find it at all frightening that the State can do somthing as dramatic and Traumatic as breaking up a family (or 400 kids...) BEFORE due process is undertaken?

This whole things is not a struggle between good and evil, dark and light, it is just the legal system working to protect the rights of the kids and the rights of the parents. When it is all over, the chances are about 95% that the right thing will be done.

And how long do the kids have to suffer in the meantime? Who "protected" those kids?

I have noticed that more than a few folks are filtering this whole thing through their own particular bias and prejudice. Prejudice being used in the litteral sense of "pre-judging" a situation witihout regard to the individual fact.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:28 pm

Sore Soulder... The fundmental principal of Criminal Law is there must be both "mens rea" and "actus rea" before a crime is committed. In English there must be both the mental intention to do the criminal act and follow that trough with the actual doing of the criminal act.

In this case the CPS did not have criminal intent to kidnap. In this case the facts did not come up to the legal standards for taking the children. To charge the CPS folks you would have to prove they knew they had no legal grounds and they intended to kidnap the children. Being mistaken about the facts does not make one a criminal. Ignorance of the law is no defense, but a mistake of fact is a defense.

The US legal system would fall into chaos, if it was a crime for a public official to be mistaken about the facts. If a public official does make a mistake, there is a Civil remedy, if it can be proved that the mistake was the product of negligence.

Long story short is there is no Criminal liability on behalf of the CPS and if charges were filled, the law would not be followed, but defied.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:40 pm

Ironsights.. We live in imperfect world. Private citizens and public officials are both human beings. Mistakes are made, wrongs are done, and folks suffer from those wrong. This is taking place millions of times all over the world as we carry on this discussion.

All we can ask of any person is to try and do the right thing, when and if they know what the right thing is.

When folks are wrong and people hurt, the legal system tries to set things right, as is happening is this case. But the legal system can't undo suffering.

Those who suffer have the right to file civil lawsuits to compensate them for their pain. However, money will never undo the suffering.

Long story short... You can't turn back the clock, you move forward doing the best you can, dealing with what you have before you.

Getting locked down in anger,blaiming and feeling like a victum doesn't change anything, but it does degrade our lives big time.

BTW.. Due Process is what takes place after the state has acted. This whole thread is about the due process that is taking place.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:03 pm

Charles,

a government agency kidnapped about 400 children at gunpoint.

the legal mumbo-jumbo you post as an excuse is just waving a red blanket in front of the offended.

there is nothing conciliatory about excusing human frailty of government minions for something any civilian would be merciliously prosecuted for.

what you have outlined is exactly the us-them/dual-standard that folks have been protesting on this board for months, if not years.

apparently everything you seem to think is clicking along and just hunky-dory is exactly what the subjects of it are objecting to.

what you are saying is that the government henchmen are above the law because their actions can be simply labeled a 'mistake' and all is well.

if stealing 400 children at gunpoint can be labeled a mistake, then why can't stealing 400 dollars from a store get the same reasonable doubt?

the only reason I can think of is that the legal system has placed itself above the law, and you approve of that and agree, according to what you have written, they are above the law, by the very simple evidence that you will not allow the same 'mistake' to those who aren't part of that system.

the problem that everyone has is that the legal system gets to have it both ways, and we all know that's just plain wrong.

well, is there a solution? here's my proposal:

get rid of every elected official by voting for anyone but the incumbent. get rid of every elected sherrif and every elected judge and keep replacing every functionary of the government minions at every possible opportunity. and then start recycling incumbent bureaucrats, because they are the cause of a large portion of misery that exists in this country.

VOTE AGAINST INCUMBENTS, it's a start.

Grizz

BruceB · Post by **BruceB** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:10 pm

Move it along. Nothing to see here.

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:25 pm

Typical of HHS/Social Services. many time they have started out with,"First we'll grab the kids. then we'll do the investigation". I fight with them on a weekly basis.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:28 pm

KCSO wrote:Typical of HHS/Social Services. many time they have started out with,"First we'll grab the kids. then we'll do the investigation". I fight with them on a weekly basis.

Were that there were more like you. Thanks.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:34 pm

KCSO wrote:Typical of HHS/Social Services. many time they have started out with,"First we'll grab the kids. then we'll do the investigation". I fight with them on a weekly basis.

kudos... hope there are a bunch more just like you out there in the wild.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm

God Bless you all...by now.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:56 pm

Here's another thing about the statist's actions. How do we know those 400 kids aren't being abused right now? What guarantee is there that they're better off? Abducting them is abusive on the face of it in my book.

In WA-land CPS has lost lots of kids, and some of them have been abused sexually, starved, and murdered while under the 'protection' of the state.

I fear for the 400 kids...

FREE THE FOUR HUNDRED
FREE THE FOUR HUNDRED
FREE THE CHILDREN

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 23, 2008 4:23 pm

KCSO wrote:Typical of HHS/Social Services. many time they have started out with,"First we'll grab the kids. then we'll do the investigation". I fight with them on a weekly basis.

BTW - Nice to see another CastBooliter migrate here.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Fri May 23, 2008 5:23 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: If the Courts had done their job, the Warrant would have never been issued.

If the parents had done their job, a warrant would never have needed to be issued...

I'm just saying...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 23, 2008 5:31 pm

El Mac wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: If the Courts had done their job, the Warrant would have never been issued.
If the parents had done their job, a warrant would never have needed to be issued...

I'm just saying...

And if an anonymous hoaxer hadn't called CPS none of ths would have ever happened either.

Isn't this the second time somebody has cried "wolf" about these people - with exactly the same results?

I'm just saying...

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Fri May 23, 2008 6:25 pm

My brother, where there is smoke there is most often fire. Given what I know about cults, I don't blame them one bit.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri May 23, 2008 6:56 pm

El Mac wrote:My brother, where there is smoke there is most often fire. Given what I know about cults, I don't blame them one bit.

Where there are gun owners there may be criminals, but I don't think it would justify arresting everyone at a gun show, holding them in jail for weeks, and trying to see if you could find any were criminals.

Sure, if 1/10,000 of people are child molesters, and you arrested 100,000 gun show attendees, you'd get 10 child molesters, and we'd all agree they should be strung up, but the "round 'em up then see what you get" mentality is something out of Stalin's era. Say you do round them up, and 15 of them were child molesters, would it be justified because the evidence showed gun show attendees were 50% higher risk of being child molesters than ordinary people? What if only 5 were? Should it matter?

It appears that although we may be upset with their family and spiritual beliefs since they aren't just like ours, that only a FEW of over 400 kids had the under-age pregnancy thing going, which I'm sure is less than any 400 kids you'd round up in most inner cities.

Any group of people can be labeled a "cult" or a "gang" - but to the extent we go along with that kind of thing, we may get payback someday when all gun owners are labeled by some term like that and rounded up for holding, until they can trump up some "charges."

donw · Post by **donw** » Sat May 24, 2008 9:21 am

i think too many CPS, LEO, judicial entities act out of a "power"display too many times...

how many innocent are being released from prisons now due to DNA proof? too many. and in some states, the amount of liability offered up in compsensation is limited by law and in many cases, not present at all. going even farther than that, how many innocents are slain in the course of "enforcment"?

when the 'system' is broken, and it's proven to be, it needs to be repaired and in the course of doing so the innocents need to be fairly compensated.

all too often the innocents are left devistated, broken, cast aside and left, usually finacially ruined or nearly so, and are left on their own to rebuild what the system destroyed in the name of justice that was not really justice at all, but in fact, gross negligence, errors, apathy and plain ole stubborness on the part of the 'system' to admit it was wrong.

i'd say the system is probably right more times than wrong, but when it's wrong...WOW...can it be devistating! it should be held accountable.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:10 am

donw wrote: i'd say the system is probably right more times than wrong, but when it's wrong...WOW...can it be devistating! it should be held accountable.

Yes - that's just it! We worry about the slight chance that an evil INDIVIDUAL will go free if we aren't aggressive enough in our law enforcement, yet if the alternative is to create a police-state environment which endangers MORE innocents than any individual bad guy could, we need to not go there.

Not all laws are the camel's nose under the tent, but many are, and when was the last time you saw our government (or any other) give back any power it seizes legislatively?

Taking a 1:1,000,000 chance on facilitating another holocaust which kills 10,000,000 people is a way more dangerous option than risking the escape of a couple rapists, murderers, child molesters, or whatever other evil individuals you may worry about.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:17 am

AJMD429 wrote:Taking a 1:1,000,000 chance on facilitating another holocaust which kills 10,000,000 people is a way more dangerous option than risking the escape of a couple rapists, murderers, child molesters, or whatever other evil individuals you may worry about.

Exactly! Which is why we have an executive, legislative and judicial branches - all of which are answerable to the voters to one degree or another. Checks and balances. Not perfect, just lightyears better than anything that came before it...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:38 am

El Mac wrote: Exactly! Which is why we have an executive, legislative and judicial branches - all of which are answerable to the voters to one degree or another. Checks and balances. Not perfect, just lightyears better than anything that came before it...

But one of the things our legislative branch has done is set up laws which prohibit arrest without proper cause, and our courts have upheld that, so our executive branch should obey that.

Seizing all those children will likely be found by the courts to have been improper, so as you pointed out, 'the system is working' yet when it was pretty obvious going into it that the action was inappropriate, it shouldn't have been done merely because after the fact the courts would have the opportunity to 'make things right' by finding that they acted excessively.

The equivalent would be for me to go steal money from a bank, then expect to not get in trouble because the courts would have the opportunity to find I did a bad thing, and make it ok as long as I give the money back eventually.

It reminds me of the Ohio CCW situation a few years ago; the citizen could get arrested en route to taking his jewelry store deposit to the bank, and after thousands in legal fees and having an arrest record, be found to have "an acceptable defense" to the CCW charge, as the law specified. BUT the same citizen could be arrested going to the same bank with the same errand by the same officer, the very next day, and would have to go through the whole defense/expense process again. Sure - "the system worked" - but at what cost...?

With all the surveillance skills our government has access to, it would have been easy for them to get truly incriminating evidence on anyone in that community who was doing something truly wrong, and to do it without seizing children from their parents. And they could have done it perfectly legally, and NOT had it reversed afterwards, like this is likely to be. In the end, the zeal to catch perverts may wind up causing them to actually escape arrest, if there are any to be found. Surely THAT isn't a good thing!

I'm all for nailing the child molesters or whatever, whether they are members of some weird church, or athiests, or traditional Christians - but NOT at the cost of creating a society where the government has such arbitrary powers that IT becomes a bigger threat to our children than the perverts do. That's like using dynamite to kill the mouse in the kitchen.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:42 am

AJMD429, very well said +1