Interesting 'Range Brass' find.....

[AJMD429]

I found these two cases today; one looked like a 300 Blackout, but the other....maybe a 38 Super, or 30 Carbine.....???





Since I was the only one shooting, it got me kinda curious......

.......so I also found this on my cleaning rod.......



It was hiding in here......

[sore shoulder]

I wouldn't attempt reloading brass from that manufacturer. My guess is cases weren't annealed prior to necking down.


Edit: After further review those primers look flattened. Is that just the pic?

[AJMD429]

Primers look ok. The case neck that was left in the chamber was pretty loose; no effort was needed to push the brush in from the breech and pull it out. I almost wonder if I could have just tapped the breech of the upper on the floor and shaken it out (it looks loose in the photo of the chamber I took before brushing it out).



I'll be sending the info to Fiocchi, and see what they say, but I think the cannelure is too aggressive, plus like you said, the brass evidently is pretty brittle.



The bummer is that I'd decided to christen my 300 Blk AR as primary ranch rifle, and had bought a whole case of Fiocchi ammo towards that end....

I don't think I'm going to be shooting this stuff in a semi-auto much....

[rgates]

You might need a heavier buffer in your AR. Had a similar experience with a pistol gas system in my 16 inch Blackout AR and carbine buffer. Installed H3 Buffer and it cured all the functioning and brass damage problems.

[Sixgun]

VERY strange place for a case separation. Factory ammo too huh? 220 or super sonic? The reason I ask that is because where does the base of the bullet end in the case.....right at the separation?

Your hypothesis on the cannelure and brittle brass make a lot of sense. With a tight bullet fit in a tight chamber, it all wanted to go out the bore. One thing for sure, if THEY have the problem, you will be well compensated...ask for 2 cases.---6

[sore shoulder]

Primers look ok. The case neck that was left in the chamber was pretty loose; no effort was needed to push the brush in from the breech and pull it out. I almost wonder if I could have just tapped the breech of the upper on the floor and shaken it out (it looks loose in the photo of the chamber I took before brushing it out).



I'll be sending the info to Fiocchi, and see what they say, but I think the cannelure is too aggressive, plus like you said, the brass evidently is pretty brittle.



The bummer is that I'd decided to christen my 300 Blk AR as primary ranch rifle, and had bought a whole case of Fiocchi ammo towards that end....

I don't think I'm going to be shooting this stuff in a semi-auto much....

Considering 5.56 uses a military crimp on the case mouth and operates at a lot higher pressure I seriously doubt you are ripping the case apart due to a tight crimp into the cannelure. It's all pointing back to brass that was not annealed. That is one of the biggest problems with making cases from 5.56 brass that wasnt annealed after it was cut down.

All these little finicky problems is why my 300bo barrel sits on the bench and pistol is wearing a 5.56 barrel again. Hope you get is sorted out. Hard to trust it for anything other than a toy.

[sore shoulder]

Just curious, what do the extractor marks look like and do you recall what clock time the brass was landing?

[OldWin]

My 300BO is a 16" pistol gas and I run a Colt H buffer. I've never had a failure of any kind but I've never tried that ammo. I run the factory Remington 120ot and Barnes 110gr. Tac-TX.
The gas length shouldn't matter if you have the correct port size. Have you had that problem with any other ammunition?

[AJMD429]

Lots of other ammo (Remington subsonic and supersonic, Gorilla supersonic), both with and without suppressor. No issues. I'll check the extractor marks but cases ejected to the usual place.

[GunnyMack]

Looks like annealing issue! That's not a pressure issue in my eyes.
I wouldn't shoot ANYMORE of it! Contact Fiocchi and see what they say/do.

[sore shoulder]

I do think that timing of the shorter pistol gas my be contributing a bit to the problem, but its manifesting because the case wasn't properly processed and is brittle. This is because pistol gas systems tend to start extracting before the case has released from the chamber walls. This is also why heavy buffers work so well in a pistol as they create a slight delay in the bolt moving backwards. Usually that's just a bandaid for the real problem, over gassing, which is due to over sized port, which is a lot more common cause of problems than most people shooting AR pistols realize. This is due to some inaccurate port size charts from known manufacturers that have been floating around for years and misunderstandings of gas timing, pressure and what the pressures are at various distances from the gas key.

Its easy to spot the early extraction by examining the rim to see how deep the extractor marks are, hence my earlier question. Where the brass is landing is also a good indicator, assuming your upper receiver has a brass deflector. if its landing earlier than 3:00, you are likely over gassed. Of course how hot the round is loaded can also affect this. In some cases this will cause extraction issues due to the extractor popping off the rim while the case is still gripping the chamber. This is why you see extractor enhancements being recommended, and they usually work, but again, it a bandaid for an oversized gas port.

There are a few ways to skin the over sized port cat. Adjustable gas block, bushing in the barrel, and my favorite a gas block with removable bushings.

[JOHNNY WACKO]

how many of those did that,1 or a bunch.there could have been a screw up on that case from the get go. a machine not set up correctly at the factory or something like that. I would not go changing everything for 1 bad case unless you have had it happen a bunch of times from that ammo
i have carbine gas system in my 762x39 pistol ,have herd of expansion issues with the pistol gas systems.

seems like a lot of speculation for 1 bad case if that's all there was was 1 time. as fast as they load ammo there could have just been a hiccup in that round. and it not being tight in the chamber would say it was not ripped apart while extraction. and that case said 300 so it was not a cut down 223 to start out. sounds like i bad apple that wont spoil the hole bunch case. and it did not stick to the bullet and go out the barrel so wasn't to tight to the bullet.

[sore shoulder]

The case expands against the chamber when fired then shrinks back. Pistol length gas systems start extracting before the case shrinks.

[JOHNNY WACKO]

would be ok if he had room for the pig tail gas tube to slow down the bolt opening time then.

[sore shoulder]

I have looked at those a few times. While they don't change the timing of when the gas reaches the port (they receive criticism for that), they do allow a larger area for the gas to expand thus causing a delay. When we are talking milliseconds that is a measurable benefit. It would also reduce pressure at the bolt. I've considered trying one on a 7.5" barrel that has a massively over sized port.

[AJMD429]

I do think that timing of the shorter pistol gas my be contributing a bit to the problem, but its manifesting because the case wasn't properly processed and is brittle. This is because pistol gas systems tend to start extracting before the case has released from the chamber walls. This is also why heavy buffers work so well in a pistol as they create a slight delay in the bolt moving backwards. Usually that's just a bandaid for the real problem, over gassing, which is due to over sized port, which is a lot more common cause of problems than most people shooting AR pistols realize. This is due to some inaccurate port size charts from known manufacturers that have been floating around for years and misunderstandings of gas timing, pressure and what the pressures are at various distances from the gas key.

Its easy to spot the early extraction by examining the rim to see how deep the extractor marks are, hence my earlier question. Where the brass is landing is also a good indicator, assuming your upper receiver has a brass deflector. if its landing earlier than 3:00, you are likely over gassed. Of course how hot the round is loaded can also affect this. In some cases this will cause extraction issues due to the extractor popping off the rim while the case is still gripping the chamber. This is why you see extractor enhancements being recommended, and they usually work, but again, it a bandaid for an oversized gas port.

There are a few ways to skin the over sized port cat. Adjustable gas block, bushing in the barrel, and my favorite a gas block with removable bushings.

1. I'm convinced it is a combination of brittle brass and an over-aggressive cannelure (the cross-section where the case separated is soooooo thin).

2. However, your comments on overgassing and buffers made me think:

• a) I almost always put adjustable gas-blocks on my AR's - partly due to having a suppressor,
  
  b) I usually have my 'rifle' uppers and a full-length buttstock paired, and the carbines/collapsable's paired, but
  
  c) this is a S&W "M&P" upper I bought that I could never get the gas-block off of (really, really tight taper-pins), and
  
  d) it has a non-adjustable gas-block (works well with suppressed subsonic and non-suppressed supersonics).
  
  ....and....
  
  e) it has (always) been paired with a full-buttstock lower, since I first bought it...

So.....

I was told years ago that it was "ok" to pair a carbine upper with a rifle lower, or vice-versa, and although I've seldom done it (had a 26" Varminter upper on a collapsable buttstock for a bit just to make it not quite so awkward - and it cycled fine), this is an exception. The other is my 50 Beowulf, which I think has 'carbine-length' gas, but has always gotten paired with a 'rifle' lower.

......is that correct....??? If not, what combinations are ok....?

With the popularity of the AR "platform" there are surely lots of not-really-good combinations one can encounter, but which are really bad, versus just not that great...???

[sore shoulder]

As far as lowers, I think what you're getting at is the buffer no? I've swapped rifle and carbine uppers and lowers around many times with no issues. Pistols are a completely different animal. You could put a pistol length gas upper on a rifle lower if you could find a heavy enough buffer. I don't know that there are any for sure bad combinations. There are definitely combinations that run better. The heavier carbine buffers came about to offset the shorter carbine gas system timing issues. They also tame the recoil a bit.

Since you're running the 300, that's even more of a different breed since the pistol powders used in that cartridge are much faster burning, peakier, and factory loadings are all over the place.

The real way to determine if its over gassed is the depth of the extractor marks, and what clock position it's throwing brass. Deep extractor marks indicate over gassing, and the brass being thrown forward instead of to the side is also an indication. This will also usually be follow by ejector smear marks on the case, brass shavings in the breech and brass marks on the shell deflector.

Hopefully Johnny is right and it was just a one time bad case and your rifle is gtg. I prattled on a bit this morning as the coffee was kicking in and threw out a bunch of information just in case it might help.

[AJMD429]

Thanks for prattling...I might have learned something....

As far as extraction, no visible marks, and pretty much all loads including these have spit out about "4 o'clock".

[JOHNNY WACKO]

I am planning on a 300 build rifle. I WAS THINKING A MID GAS SYSTEM BUT SEE MOST ARE PISTOL OR CARBINE.I havent thought out what stock or anything yet. Now i am wondering witch way to go. I would like to have the convenience to swap it around with my other lowers if i wanted to. I have even thought of the KAK tube and blade brace other then a stock.I am going to have to rethink the hole thing now.I was going to do a upper first and swap it around with the others i have. My 300 pistol has a colt bcg with a full cut on the bottom , no strap at all.light weight for the sub loads.It would act up if fires a lot till i went to that BCG for less weight. it has a 10 1/2 spring and had a pistol tube + 3 oz buffer. I changed it to the KAK tube and shockwave brace with the same 10 1/2 spring and 3 oz buffer but have not fired it since. I thought if i went mid gas tube i could use any lower in my fleet with no issues.not planing on sub loads but something a bit faster and a heavier bullet.
I am going to have to do some homework now to see what i am doing here.I can get a barrel made in any length gas system i want by the guy that made my 762.39 10 1/2 "carbine gas system barrel. he has a formula for the hole size for his barrels and will talk to him about it.but i was not going pistol for sure.he said he could change the hole size on a pistol system to make it work with any buffer size i wanted but i don't like the short tube seems to me the case dont have time to seal before it starts to eject it.
and with a heavier loas the wieght of the BCG should not be a issue like the pistol i shot sub sonic loads from.

[OldWin]

Gas system choices for 300 are either carbine or pistol. Carbine is only used with 16" barrels and many are using pistol for 16" now. The biggest factor is port size. I think my 16" pistol gas uses an .086. Carbine gas with a 16" is fine if you will mostly run supers without a can.

[sore shoulder]

Doc if extractor isn't leaving marks and brass is at 4:00 it sounds like you're in the sweet spot.

Johnny the trend is definitely pistol gas in 300 even in 16" barrel. That is due to burn rate of pistol powders used. The ports also run larger than 5.56 due to lower operating pressures. Over gassing isn't near as common of a problem in 300, but it does happen occasionally which is why I broached it here. Under gassing and short stroking were an issue early on before port sizes got figured out, and adjustable blocks became very popular after ports started getting over enlarged. And the carbine gas is more prone to that.

[Nath]

Trade it in for good Win 94, far more reliable

N

[AJMD429]

Trade it in for good Win 94, far more reliable

Well....actually, a 'Winchester' 92 currently is our go-to house/ranch rifle. Not in a real 'authentic' clambering (45 Colt), and not really a Winchester (it's a Rossi), but it is definitely a levergun...!

[AJMD429]

Well.......guess I won't be buying anything from "Fiocchi", EVER AGAIN....

I've fired 350 or so rounds of Remington 300 Blk from the same rifle with no problems, since sending the query to Fiocchi.

No response whatsoever from Fiocchi during that time (almost two months).

So - SCREW 'EM....

[Griff]

Buy American!

[HawkCreek]

My 16" LMT loves ripping the neck and shoulder off of Black Hills remanufactured match. Accurate combo but I don't go to the range without a cleaning rod and a brush.

Guess I know to avoid Fiocchi when I get around to a .300 BO.

[Sixgun]

As cheap as .223 brass is I make mine out of that...so cheap I don't even worry about finding half of it.----6

[AJMD429]

Still no response from their 'customer service' despite a second email.

I will just shoot the stuff up in my single shot Encore I guess...

....and wait for a better brand to be on sale at a good price.