.44 WCF crimping

[Carlsen Highway]

Okay, who else loads the .44/40 with Starline brass, jacketed bullets and smokeless powder, and then shoots them in a lever action?


I have had continual trouble with what I was term "crimp integrity" with my .44 WCF reloads. I have a LEE FCD. I have tried the old school crimping as well. I have tried a mixture of both. I old school crimp it, and then I recrimp everything with the lee die. I have crimped hard.

I am at the stage where I can cycle a full magazine of say ten rounds through my Rossi 92, and the will all stay put. But if I run them all through twice, I will get one or two bullets that may pop back in the case, and four or five more that have obviously set back a bit, and will fail if I run them through the rifle again.

I get much the same result if I just load five or six in the mag. on the second time round I have half of them showing signs of setting back and the crimp failing. I mean this is okay if I am just going to load and shoot them in one go, but if I am out hunting I have to be able to unload the rifle each day, and use them again. This is very frustrating to me. I have a pretty little rifle, with an otherwise great HV load that will shoot five rounds into a two inch group at 100 yards, and this is a little 20' carbine. But now I don't hardly use the rifle very much because of this problem.

I have wondered if maybe I shouldn't flare the case mouth so much. But then I have a hard trouble starting jacketed bullets so that they get seated straight, without bulging out the side of the case unevenly. At the moment I am just not using the rifle because of this. I can beat it by loading with blackpowder, I can beat it if I load with lead bullets, but its such a good load...

Why can't I do this? What am I doing wrong?

[Griff]

I can't tell from your pics, but... do those bullets have a crimp groove? If not, you're swimmin' upstream.

[M. M. Wright]

Well you got me. My favorite caliber so I've done all the same things you have and never had any trouble. Are you using .429 bullets? If not, the expanding plug in the flaring die is too big to give you the neck tension you need. I assume you are crimping into the cannelure?
Just how strong is that magazine spring in your Rossi? I usually cut a few inches off of mine. Oldest son's 38/357 is sitting in the corner waiting for me to do just that to it. When are they getting set back? In the magazine or as they go into the chamber?
Mike that expander plug. It should be a couple of thousandths smaller than your bullet diameter.
I try to just barely flare the mouth of the case for jacketed bullets. Just enough to barely feel it. And that FCD is the greatest thing since sliced bread. (I can remember when you had the choice of sliced or not).
I hope some of this helps. I almost always load black and cast but occasionally load jacketed for whitetail.

[w30wcf]

What diameter are the jacketed bullets you are using?
If they are the standard .44-40 bullet that is .426" diameter, then either
1.) your resizing die is not sizing the neck down enough or
2.) your expander is opening the neck a bit too much

If the base of the bullet goes beyond the case neck, then removing material from the bottom of the resizing die to make the neck portion longer will help support the base of the bullet.

A capacity load of RL-7 (about 25-26 grs. 1,450 f.p.s.) will also support the base of the bullet.

ALSO, you can adjust your Lee FCD to push the cannelure in deeper.

w30wcf

[Sixgun]

M.M. and "Mr. 30-30 WCF could not have said it better. Follow their instructions and you will be on your way to happiness.

The only thing I can add is when the above instructions do not work out, you gotta get one of these babies.......a canneluring tool made by CH.......(In this pic I obviously put the cannelure in the wrong place as it takes a while to adjust it for upper case canneluring).

This tool puts a crimp groove on a bullet where you want it or it will cannelure the case to keep the bullet from slipping down in the case. Although I have never used it for this "case crimping purpose", I'm pretty much "smart guessing" it will work as I can see a ridge inside the case when I do this.------6

[ollogger]

Nice looking gun you have CH
You will get it up & running with the great advice from here, my carbine is a 44-40 in a Marlin
94s with no issues but loves RL7 & a 240 gr. Keith bullet, shoots the 200 gr. Hornady with
2400 like a laser but seldom shoot jacketed bullets, I know your frustration for I nave a Colt in
44-40 that drove me crazy before I figured it out


ollogger

[Ben_Rumson]

FWIW The spec. for the 92 carbine magazine spring length is 23 inches according to those that sell them for Winchester carbines.

[Carlsen Highway]

Thanks for your replies guys,

I don't believe its the mag spring on the rifle - its not stiff, its perfectly reasonable, and I have no trouble loading ammo into the tube, not like some where you can cut your finger on the loading gate, or the rifle will spit rounds back out the spring is so hard...

The bullets are 200 grain Hornady XTP .430 bullets, and I am crimping them into the cannelure. I have adjusted the LCD and am getting a good crimp, its just not holding. Put it this way, I can load .30 WCF and crimp it just fine. (Before I got a Lee crimp die I had trouble with crimping my .30/30's too, the LCD fixed that immediately.)

If it's not the crimp, then it must be the neck...

I think I will have to load some without such an expanded neck and see how they go....

As further clue to this mystery:

I have a handful of rounds my father loaded a while back. He loaded them with brand new Starline brass, and didn't size them first, so they have no bottle neck. They look like straight walled .44 magnum cartridges, but they chamber fine. They were crimped with a LCD as well, and same bullets.
They will not set back no matter what I do.
I don't know if this is significant, that the straight walled cases work fine but the resized ones don't...maybe he just wasn't expanding the necks as much.

I will try some without expanding the neck so much. My gunslingers intuition tells me its something to do with that, because I think I may have been overdoing it anyway, put it this way, if it turns out to be that I will not be horribly surprised. Relieved though.

If this does not work I will try W30wcf's load of RL 7 at some stage, around 1450 fps will keep me just as happy.

I have 90 rounds of this wrongly made ammo....I suppose I will shoot it up in the October 50 yard challenge.

[Carlsen Highway]

M.M. and "Mr. 30-30 WCF could not have said it better. Follow their instructions and you will be on your way to happiness.

The only thing I can add is when the above instructions do not work out, you gotta get one of these babies.......a canneluring tool made by CH.......(In this pic I obviously put the cannelure in the wrong place as it takes a while to adjust it for upper case canneluring).

This tool puts a crimp groove on a bullet where you want it or it will cannelure the case to keep the bullet from slipping down in the case. Although I have never used it for this "case crimping purpose", I'm pretty much "smart guessing" it will work as I can see a ridge inside the case when I do this.------6

Sixgun, I had put some thought into how to cannulure the case, or crimp the case under the bullet the way the old factory ammo was done. I am impressed your figured it out.

[EdinCT]

I have had no issues with the 38 WCF and the factory crimp die but only load 5 when hunting. You could also fill the case with puff-lon under the bullet to stop the bullet from pushing back.

[flatnose]

I have wondered if maybe I shouldn't flare the case mouth so much. But then I have a hard trouble starting jacketed bullets so that they get seated straight, without bulging out the side of the case unevenly. At the moment I am just not using the rifle because of this. I can beat it by loading with blackpowder, I can beat it if I load with lead bullets, but its such a good load...

Why can't I do this? What am I doing wrong?

[/quote]

From what you say, the difference is in the bullets. Measure the depths of the crimping grooves in each bullet type, and measure the bullet diameters.
Only problem i have ever had crimping 30-30 or other brass, was when necks were too hard. Never had a FCD crimp die, and always used a roll crimp.

[AJMD429]

Lee FCD's are generally tough enough that you can crimp jacketed bullets in places there isn't a cannelure.

Brass-length isn't very critical, but has to be adequate; are your cases long enough you see the distinctive jaw-crimp on them...?

[AJMD429]

...by the way, SHOW THAT PICTURE to folks what sez Rossi's are crappy 'truck guns' at best...

[flatnose]

Your sizing die is probably sizing the necks to .423'' or possibly even tighter for use with 44-40 bullets. You will have to measure the inside diameter of the necks.
The xtp bullets are .430'', and will be more difficult to seat, and will show more of a pronounced bulge to the case neck, unless the neck is expanded more.

[Lefty Dude]

When I reload jacketed 44WCF's, I use the Lyman "M" die for my neck expansion/belling. I have found it to be the best for this task. The "M" die gives a very gradual taper for the case belling. I also use and old set of RCBS 44WCF dies for the case sizing, this die was made in the late 1950's. They only loaded jacketed back then for this caliber.
With the .430" you could get what we call a Wasp waist with the seated bullet.
Why would you use a .430" jacketed in a Rossi 44 WCF that has a .429" or less bore ?
When I had my Rossi 92 44 WCF. I shot .430" lead and .429" jacketed.
A nice tight roll crimp on a jacketed bullet, is all that is needed.

The only time I double crimp, Roll and LFCD. Is when I use Unique powder and a .431" lead bullet for long range accuracy, 200 yards plus.

Re-read your post;
Your bullet is over sized for the chamber throat and leade. Try .429" or .428" jacketed bullets. Your bullet push back will disappear.

[M. M. Wright]

So Lefty you think there's not enough leade in the Rossi chamber and that's what is setting the bullet back? Possible I guess but I'm betting on the expander/flairing die being oversized. I kinda like the "wasp waist" cause I know those aren't gonna set back.

[GunnyMack]

MM, sounds to me to be more of case sizing.
Clarify this a little bit more, are the bullets setting back IN the mag tube or when you chamber a round?
If they set back under recoil then it's your crimp. If it happens when clambering the round(s) then I would say it's over size bullet/ under size Leade... Not that this round is a heavy recoiler.

Try Cerrosafe, a chamber cast will tell you EXACTLY what your chamber/ leade is.

[Carlsen Highway]

I believe the bullets setting back in the magazine. The 'shock loading' of the rounds shunting back as each new cartridge is lifted out onto the cartridge lifter is bumping the bullets back, until the crimp is defeated.

I will examine the idea carefully that maybe the chamber or leade is pushing the bullets back, but surely that would do it every single time I chambered a round? Woulndt I feel that when chambering? All I feel is the extractor going over the rim. With my fingers I can chamber a round fully with no resistance or grab, and pull it back out with my fingernail.

I am having another go at this later today. I didn't know that the LFCD is so strong that people can crimp into a bullet that has no cannelure. Maybe I just havn't been putting a deep enough crimp in. Maybe its as simple as that.

I am using Hornady .430 XTP's because the only other jacketed bullets available to me are 'proper' .44 WCF sized ones, are .427 which are too small for the bore. Plus I want a good hunting bullet. (I am convinced Rossi just put .44 mag barrels on their .44/40's.)

I will example my expander / case mouth flarer - I am not sure what you guys mean when you say it is expanding the case mouth too much. Isnt that the point of it - so you can seat a bullet without crumpling the case?
Or do you mean the expander ball inside the sizing die? Maybe that is pulling the case neck back out too wide? I really need the case mouth flarer die though to seat a bullet....otherwise I cant get one in there. Its not like I can push a bullet into a case by hand without flaring the case or anything.

I will try again.
I will try and make the flare as little as possible and still seat a bullet, and I will put as heavy a crimp as I can with this die. Then I will cycle the same eight rounds through the rifle in a row three times and see what happens to the them.

This rifle is a shameless poser.