Bear Protection Handguns

[guntar]

Today I was reading a book by Craig Boddington called Deadly Encounters. On page 180 he made a statement that surprised me. He says that John Wooters made a study of encounters with bears and, at that time in the 1980's, "No one who had defended himself or herself against a bear attack with a handgun survived. Often the bear also died, but the human always died." He goes on to say that since that time there have only been a couple of cases where a successful defense was made.
He stresses that there are lots of cases of hunters successfully taking bears with handguns, but he basically is saying this is the difference between being able to kill a bear, and being able to stop one.
This seemed to go against my notions, but then I thought about it, and I couldn't really come up with any accounts that disputed it. I know that this has been commented on before in various discussions concerning both handguns and leverguns chambering pistol cartridges. So I thought I would ask the forum what factual experiences they might have or know about, and/or what thoughts thoughts they might have on the subject.
What say you?

[Pop Watts]

The Australian Koala Bear rarely attacks, so I can provide no verified reports of defending against bear attack with a handgun.
Pop.

[Griff]

If your huntin' partner is wearing hiking boots, wear tennis shoes... if he wears tennis shoes, wear track shoes...

[Old Ironsights]

Mr. Boddington never threw 5 Volkswagons at a bear either.

Dick Casull changed the game considerably.

[gundownunder]

I'm guessing accuracy would be a big reason for handguns being poor bear stoppers.
How many people can shoot straight with all that brown adrenaline running down their leg.

An animal full of adrenaline takes a lot more stopping than a calm one, as any hunter knows. I would guess the only way to stop a charging bear in his tracks, would be to put a bullet in his brain, or snap his spine, and neither of those would be easy under those conditions.

[Old Ironsights]

My dad thought the same thing until I pulled my Casull and dumped all 5 into a paper plate at 7m in less than 6 seconds from the draw.

With the Casull all you have to do is hit ONCE in the "motive zone" of a bear and you can finish it off AFTER you clean your shorts...

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Have a BFR 475 Linebaugh that would be my first choice revolver. But I would by far be opting for my Mossy 12 gauge with .735 round ball cast of wheel weights pushed to 1550 fps.
Mike in Peru

[harry]

My dad thought the same thing until I pulled my Casull and dumped all 5 into a paper plate at 7m in less than 6 seconds from the draw.

With the Casull all you have to do is hit ONCE in the "motive zone" of a bear and you can finish it off AFTER you clean your shorts...

RIGHT
And you had a sow grizz running at you at the same time to.

[Buck Elliott]

My dad thought the same thing until I pulled my Casull and dumped all 5 into a paper plate at 7m in less than 6 seconds from the draw.

With the Casull all you have to do is hit ONCE in the "motive zone" of a bear and you can finish it off AFTER you clean your shorts...

The paper plate wasn't chewing on your leg, or even growling in your face..

Your "motive zone" is a much more elusive target than you have imagined..
Near misses aren't going to account for much..

I travel grizz country a lot - these days, mostly afoot.. While I do pack a heavy-loaded .45 Colt at all times, I also tote along either my 12-gauge double (600-grain Brenneke slugs) or a stout levergun..

If the bear isn't coming at you, with blood in his eye, or gnawing on some part of your anatomy, you'd best be able to tell a mighty strong tale in your legal defense..

That said, there have been several recent cases of successful defense against the big bruins using heavy handguns..

[mohavesam]

Great topic. Always draws out the experts.

[guntar]

The reason I posted this is that this is an area that I have no experience in. The only bear I have killed was a black bear taken out with a 375 H&H. I don't know how much it weighed but it squared out about 7-1/2 feet, and was killed in SE Alaska. I would not want to try to stop one of those with a handgun, let alone a grizzly, brown, or polar bear. It would be better than bare hands, but I would want something much heavier if I ever got into a confrontation.

[Old Ironsights]

Shrugz.

I bought and carried the Casull because I was the guy allergic to salmon that was tasked to stand in the Deshka when my friends were fishing.

Beyond that I shot it, a lot, with heavy H110 loads and a hard cast bullet. (Digging out my old data it was s 350gr LBT compressing 31gr H110 or 296).

Regardless, I can't remember a time I shot Factory loads as I was reloading at the house of a friend who had the same gun and there was no point in buying factory stuff (such as was available) even from Jim West.

My Casull was my first Single Action and that's how I learned... On Alaskan Heavy Loads with pie-plate, stress-fire accuracy.

(Never got much better than Pie Plate either... But that isn't why I had the gun.)

[MrMurphy]

Never been there, though it's on my list.

I do know several guys who worked/lived there for years. One shot a brown bear at very close range with a 2" .454 that he carried just for that reason......right next to the camp washing dishes if I remember correctly. His .45-70, 12 gauge full of Brenneke and 4" 29 were all 'around' but not handy for camp chores. The 2" .454 was just that. His "dishwashing/bathroom trip" gun.


As to pistol stops, I know there was a published (newspaper) story about 3 guys fishing in Alaska. 1 had a 12ga, the other a .44 in a shoulder holster, the third a 9mm (all he owned at the time).

They're all busy fishing when a brown/grizzly (unsure) decided it wanted their fish. Shotgun guy dropped it in the stream in a panic, .44 guy had not trained with his holster and since he'd hung it on a tree branch anyways......was not in the fight. The 9mm guy deciding if you're going to get eaten, go out with a bang, unloaded his 9mm on the bear.

Bear took a lucky hit in the brain I believe, and died right there.

[Blaine]

I'm certainly no expert, but Randy Garrett sure is. His 44 Mag Hammerheads are documented going head to tail thru grizz....

[Malamute]

Today I was reading a book by Craig Boddington called Deadly Encounters. On page 180 he made a statement that surprised me. He says that John Wooters made a study of encounters with bears and, at that time in the 1980's, "No one who had defended himself or herself against a bear attack with a handgun survived. Often the bear also died, but the human always died." He goes on to say that since that time there have only been a couple of cases where a successful defense was made.
.
What say you?

I call Bullfeathers. If that's his conclusion then Id say he was suffering from confirmation bias.

[tman]

One of the biggest grizzlys was shot by an Indian woman in Alaska with a .22 lr. Too many variables to say for certain what won't and what will stop a bear.

[sore shoulder]

Today I was reading a book by Craig Boddington called Deadly Encounters. On page 180 he made a statement that surprised me. He says that John Wooters made a study of encounters with bears and, at that time in the 1980's, "No one who had defended himself or herself against a bear attack with a handgun survived. Often the bear also died, but the human always died." He goes on to say that since that time there have only been a couple of cases where a successful defense was made.
.
What say you?

I call Bullfeathers. If that's his conclusion then Id say he was suffering from confirmation bias.

I was just about to post about the gentleman we know who survived the grizzly attack and killed it with a .41 magnum.

[sore shoulder]

As to pistol stops, I know there was a published (newspaper) story about 3 guys fishing in Alaska. 1 had a 12ga, the other a .44 in a shoulder holster, the third a 9mm (all he owned at the time).

They're all busy fishing when a brown/grizzly (unsure) decided it wanted their fish. Shotgun guy dropped it in the stream in a panic, .44 guy had not trained with his holster and since he'd hung it on a tree branch anyways......was not in the fight. The 9mm guy deciding if you're going to get eaten, go out with a bang, unloaded his 9mm on the bear.

Bear took a lucky hit in the brain I believe, and died right there.

Speaking of more rounds vs more power.

[Malamute]

Today I was reading a book by Craig Boddington called Deadly Encounters. On page 180 he made a statement that surprised me. He says that John Wooters made a study of encounters with bears and, at that time in the 1980's, "No one who had defended himself or herself against a bear attack with a handgun survived. Often the bear also died, but the human always died." He goes on to say that since that time there have only been a couple of cases where a successful defense was made.
He stresses that there are lots of cases of hunters successfully taking bears with handguns, but he basically is saying this is the difference between being able to kill a bear, and being able to stop one.
This seemed to go against my notions, but then I thought about it, and I couldn't really come up with any accounts that disputed it...What say you?

This is a fairly thin overview, I don't have the actual study (didn't really look very hard), though know an Alaskan guy that does have it. Despite the article title, it gives some interesting info. The site wouldn't let me copy any of it to paste a quote here. Look at paragraph 7.

http://www.adn.com/article/20120308/gun ... -indicates

A quote from elsewhere on the study,

"A total of 444 people and at least 367 bears were involved in these incidents. We found no significant difference in success rates (i.e., success being when the bear was stopped in its aggressive behavior) associated with long guns (76%) and handguns (84%)."

In fairness to Wooters and Boddington, in the 80s and until computers made researching simpler, they may simply have not known of examples, though a number of books give names, dates and details. Details would likely be in local papers, and if one wasn't asking the exact right questions in exactly the right places, would never hear of such events. Even today, many encounters aren't widely publicized, and aren't all that simple to search successfully for, even when known of. I personally know of two people that successfully defended themselves or others from bear attacks with handguns.

[Blaine]

An additional thought might be that if a grizz is killed with no harm to the shooter, perhaps the shooter does not want to be charged with a crime....

[fordwannabe]

All I know 100percent for certain is when I was a young man living in Montana I did not feel comfortable when in bear country unless I had a short barreled 12 gauge pump...and sometimes not even then.

[Old Ironsights]

An additional thought might be that if a grizz is killed with no harm to the shooter, perhaps the shooter does not want to be charged with a crime....

Funny, that.

SSS is totally inappropriate these days...

[Blaine]

An additional thought might be that if a grizz is killed with no harm to the shooter, perhaps the shooter does not want to be charged with a crime....

Funny, that.

SSS is totally inappropriate these days...

Why might that be?

[Old Ironsights]

An additional thought might be that if a grizz is killed with no harm to the shooter, perhaps the shooter does not want to be charged with a crime....

Funny, that.

SSS is totally inappropriate these days...

Why might that be?

Sarcasam dude, sarcasam... See:

[92&94]

An additional thought might be that if a grizz is killed with no harm to the shooter, perhaps the shooter does not want to be charged with a crime....

Funny, that.

SSS is totally inappropriate these days...

Kind of a lot of diggin for a grizzly....

[Old Ironsights]

An additional thought might be that if a grizz is killed with no harm to the shooter, perhaps the shooter does not want to be charged with a crime....

Funny, that.

SSS is totally inappropriate these days...

Kind of a lot of diggin for a grizzly....

That's why God created cratering shaped charges...

[.45colt]

I would think if your last option is a revolver #1-3 have failed to work. still better than a sharp stick.

[Old Ironsights]

IIRC, the reason Dick came up with the ".45 Colt Magnum (.454) was to give the guys up in Nome etc a handgun that had at least a small chance against the Polar Bears that liked to wander through schools, houses, etc.

[hfcable]

Today I was reading a book by Craig Boddington called Deadly Encounters. On page 180 he made a statement that surprised me. He says that John Wooters made a study of encounters with bears and, at that time in the 1980's, "No one who had defended himself or herself against a bear attack with a handgun survived. Often the bear also died, but the human always died." He goes on to say that since that time there have only been a couple of cases where a successful defense was made.
He stresses that there are lots of cases of hunters successfully taking bears with handguns, but he basically is saying this is the difference between being able to kill a bear, and being able to stop one.
This seemed to go against my notions, but then I thought about it, and I couldn't really come up with any accounts that disputed it. I know that this has been commented on before in various discussions concerning both handguns and leverguns chambering pistol cartridges. So I thought I would ask the forum what factual experiences they might have or know about, and/or what thoughts thoughts they might have on the subject.
What say you?

BALONEY !! ....to be kind about it. I even met the fellow that killed the grizzly with the knife he was skinning the deer with. I have one employee who did the job with a ruger 44 magnum Blackhawk. crAig medred, a local newspaper outdoor columnist, was attacked and injured but stopped the grizzly with a freedom arms 454. these I know of personally. I suspect I could round up quite a few more if needed.

[tman]

Gun writers build stories around the justification to sell a new gun or caliber cause the one you got ain't up to the job. Remember in the 70's when the writer's were killing elephants with .44 mag handguns. The next month, they were telling you that your 30-30 rifle was too light for elk. Too many reports of big bear taken with 30-30's, 32 specials, 30 carbines, 9mm,etc. Long ago the .357 mag was the bear stopping handgun, then, the 44 mag, which was replaced by the 454,and when the 454 was considered too anemic, the 460 & 500 S&W's . I guess when a .750 handgun, is invented, it will replace the puny .500 and it will be safe to walk in the woods again.

[Blaine]

Gun writers build stories around the justification to sell a new gun or caliber cause the one you got ain't up to the job. Remember in the 70's when the writer's were killing elephants with .44 mag handguns. The next month, they were telling you that your 30-30 rifle was too light for elk. Too many reports of big bear taken with 30-30's, 32 specials, 30 carbines, 9mm,etc. Long ago the .357 mag was the bear stopping handgun, then, the 44 mag, which was replaced by the 454,and when the 454 was considered too anemic, the 460 & 500 S&W's . I guess when a .750 handgun, is invented, it will replace the puny .500 and it will be safe to walk in the woods again.

[stew71]

If memory serves me, Tommy Moe, the former Olympic skier, runs guided fishing trips on the side up in Alaska. I remember seeing a video of him standing in a river, swinging a fly rod over his head, with a short-barreled 12ga pump shotgun slung across this back. He called it his "bear swatter".

[cas]

You lost me at Boddington.

[Old Ironsights]

If memory serves me, Tommy Moe, the former Olympic skier, runs guided fishing trips on the side up in Alaska. I remember seeing a video of him standing in a river, swinging a fly rod over his head, with a short-barreled 12ga pump shotgun slung across this back. He called it his "bear swatter".

Until I got the Casull, that was what the Mossberg Mariner with pistol grip was for.

The Casull was easier to carry and easier to shoot.

[Grizz]

Today I was reading a book by Craig Boddington called Deadly Encounters. On page 180 he made a statement that surprised me. He says that John Wooters made a study of encounters with bears and, at that time in the 1980's, "No one who had defended himself or herself against a bear attack with a handgun survived. Often the bear also died, but the human always died." He goes on to say that since that time there have only been a couple of cases where a successful defense was made.
He stresses that there are lots of cases of hunters successfully taking bears with handguns, but he basically is saying this is the difference between being able to kill a bear, and being able to stop one.
This seemed to go against my notions, but then I thought about it, and I couldn't really come up with any accounts that disputed it. I know that this has been commented on before in various discussions concerning both handguns and leverguns chambering pistol cartridges. So I thought I would ask the forum what factual experiences they might have or know about, and/or what thoughts thoughts they might have on the subject.
What say you?

I know of two bear-stops with handguns, 44 magnums.

I know about someone who had a rifle, was disarmed by the bear, and eaten.

There is a current article about someone jumped by a bear in Yakutat, he didn't have time to react.

There is a linked article about an armed man, near Anchorage I think, who was jumped by a bear and didn't have time to unholster his gun.

My backup bear gun is a 5.5" 44 redhawk with 405g hardcast beartooth bullets. My deer gun is a marlin guide gun loaded with 525g hardcast beartooth bullets. My last resort is a bowie knife. And I still feel vulnerable in the bear's woods.

G'Nite

[kaschi]

@ Blaine's comment: Not only does a person want to be charged with a crime, a person does not want to be charged by a bear!

[Old Ironsights]

Does this count as a handgun?


http://www.tacticalimports.ca/gm6-lynx-p-3.html
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... ber-rifle/

[guntar]

Does this count as a handgun?


http://www.tacticalimports.ca/gm6-lynx-p-3.html
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... ber-rifle/

Only if you can come up with an IWB holster!

[AJMD429]

I thought "bear-defense handguns" were the ones with rounded off corners and grip frames and edges on them.....so they didn't hurt so much when the best got angry at you for shooting it, and shoved it somewhere you didn't want it...

[Old Ironsights]

Does this count as a handgun?


http://www.tacticalimports.ca/gm6-lynx-p-3.html
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... ber-rifle/

Only if you can come up with an IWB holster!

Give me that $16,000 gun and you bet your britches I'll figure out something...

[7.62 Precision]

Also, statistics tend to be handled by earth muffin types. The standard propaganda has long included claims that people have never successfully defended themselves with certain firearms, and that there have not been cases of unprovoked bear attacks. A couple years ago, while my friend, who killed a brown bear with his last shot from a .44 Mag as it held his shoulder in its mouth, was still in physical therapy, a woman had just been released from the hospital after an attack, and another man had been mauled earlier in the year, the official statistics said there had been no bear attacks in the state of Alaska for that year.

By the way, the official story about my friend supplied by an anti-hunter in the ADFG, was that my friend had a dog that he let run ahead to antagonize a bear until it charged the dog which led it back to him. They officially said he was negligently responsible for the attack. What actually happened was that the bear scented him from far downwind, tracked him, circled around to the front, and then waited in ambush. The dog saved his life by smelling the bear and causing the bear to spring its ambush prematurely, giving him time to get some willows between himself and the bear and draw his revolver.

[Grizz]

Yeah, muffins.

My brother was living in Sitka when a bicycling tourist paused on sawmill creek road to let a sow cross with her cubs in tow.

He was attacked from behind by the other bear and beheaded.

"They" managed to keep this detail out of the papers, you know, to protect the tourist trade.

An animal that can outrun a quarter horse and come up behind you so quietly you don't know it's there, and knock your head off your shoulders? What's not to like?

The state propaganda consists of outright bald-faced lies. But the last time I ran into one of "them" in the woods he was carrying a .458 WM for some reason.