Smokeless In BP

[Blaine]

In modern BP weapons, are there any smokeless loads that are safe? I think "Absolutely Not", but have heard rumors to the contrary.

[jnyork]

I recall seeing the remains of a nice Thompson-Center Hawkin that was charged with some sort of smokeless, opened it up like a flower, blew the stock into several pieces, the lock was never found, seriously injured the idiot.

YMMV.

Edit: there is probably some reason for them to write on the barrel "For Black Powder Only" .

[Blaine]

I recall seeing the remains of a nice Thompson-Center Hawkin that was charged with some sort of smokeless, opened it up like a flower, blew the stock into several pieces, the lock was never found, seriously injured the idiot.

YMMV.

Edit: there is probably some reason for them to write on the barrel "For Black Powder Only" .

Sounds like the ancient Egyptian curse of The Bullseye....

Maybe this is what I was thinking of:
http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm

[Griff]

I've read pros & cons on the ML10 using smokeless.

The testimonials that it's ok that start out "...my uncle's, half-brother-in-law's, 2nd cousin twice-removed, next-door-neighbor does it..." tend to make me skeptical..

[Blaine]

I've read pros & cons on the ML10 using smokeless.

The testimonials that it's ok that start out "...my uncle's, half-brother-in-law's, 2nd cousin twice-removed, next-door-neighbor does it..." tend to make me skeptical..

I heard rumors from a buddie's cousin's girlfriend that the ROAs have been loaded with smokeless.....I have a Bi-Centennial ROA NIB that I may or may not shoot, but NOT with smokeless. Maybe 777, tho.

[Rusty]

Call me sick but half of the pleasure of shooting a black powder arm is the smell of the smoke.

I wouldn't want to replace that.

[jnyork]

Call me sick but half of the pleasure of shooting a black powder arm is the smell of the smoke.

I wouldn't want to replace that.

The other half is listening to the wife's wailing when you clean the stinking thing in the kitchen sink!

[CowboyTutt]

This is a very strange idea to me (that smokeless is somehow dangerous to use in a BP rifle).

Many of the long standing members of this board know I have been shooting my 71/84 Mauser with its huge case for years now using a small Blue Dot load that operates at less pressure than its factory BP load. IMR or Hodgdon 4198 has been a staple in the 43 Mauser (11mm) community for years now. I'm looking at the article now from Handloader Magazine, June-July 2002. Volume 37, Number 3.

I really respect BP shooters and I have learned, at the cost of a former friend here who left the Board, that BP can be just as accurate as any Smokeless load.

I love to watch others shoot BP, but I'm not very good about cleaning things, so BP doesn't work for me. I'm a "Smokeless Guy" all the way.

My position on things (shooting Smokeless in an original 130 year old rifle and not a modern copy) is not popular with the BP crowd. But its completely do-able and safe if not PC with the BP people.

Griff and I are friends, and we have shot together and have mutual friends. I will shoot with him any time. He's a great guy!

Sadly, I am often excluded from matches because of the rules of using BP only, like smokeless offers some inherent advantage (it doesn't in large empty cases originally designed for BP) and the same amount of load development has to happen with both BP and Smokeless to achieve equal accuracy through a chronograph.

I wish the rules would change and just look at what chronograph data people have, as a condition to participate. Or some other ruling to not exclude people, but include them.

Case in point, my rifle is an original, not a modern copy in modern metallurgy using modern machining techniques, and it is 130 years old now. I have to compete with modern-made copies using state-of-the-art machining but perhaps sub-standard BP in their case (there are some that say modern BP is not as good as "the old stuff").

So my argument is, let me put my original 130 year old rifle using modern Smokeless propellants against your ultra-expensive state-of-the-art modern copy of an ancient design using supposedly inferior BP. Seems fair to me, especially if the chronograph results look similar between the two.

Regards,

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

I also get screwed because my Mauser is a "bolt gun" too at times. Jeeze, go figure. -Tutt

[Old Ironsights]

Shrugz.

I shoot BP in my 1858s and Trail Boss in my .22 C&Bs.

YMMV.

[AJMD429]

I've read pros & cons on the ML10 using smokeless.

The instruction manual specifically says it is okay, and even lists suggested loads powders they suggest are 5744, 4227, and SR4759.

Obviously they don't suggest just using any old smokeless powder, any more than Reloading Data for a 7 mm Remington Magnum would say you could just substitute Bullseye for 4831.

The whole issue basically revolves around burn rate versus time, and versus pressure, which determines the magnitude and timing of the peak pressure. If they are the same, then the stresses on the firearm will be the same.

I believe KirkD has a very detailed thread on this forum involving hard data along those lines.

[jnyork]

I recall seeing the remains of a nice Thompson-Center Hawkin that was charged with some sort of smokeless, opened it up like a flower, blew the stock into several pieces, the lock was never found, seriously injured the idiot.

YMMV.

Edit: there is probably some reason for them to write on the barrel "For Black Powder Only" .

Sounds like the ancient Egyptian curse of The Bullseye....

Maybe this is what I was thinking of:
http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm

Well, Blaine, the Savage so-called muzzleloader is DESIGNED for smokeless, so I guess that would be OK. Your original question was about using smokeless in black powder guns, wasn't it?

[Griff]

Call me sick but half of the pleasure of shooting a black powder arm is the smell of the smoke.
I wouldn't want to replace that.

The other half is listening to the wife's wailing when you clean the stinking thing in the kitchen sink!

Ah heck you should hear the cat-r-wallin' when you strip off the wood, & take it into the shower, while yer still wearin' full buckskins!

After a couple times in the shower, she insists that durin' the summer, it's in the back yard with garden hose. But that's ok as we both up wet & soapy! And that way she doesn't have to smell wet leather in the shower all nite.

Tutt, we're talking muzzle loaders, no cartridge guns. At least I am!

[Bullard4075]

Seems we had this discussion (fight to some) awhile back. Some great information (and no little fire and brimstone -pardon the pun) came from it. I make no claim to great knowledge just a lot of reading. Ken Waters shows many loads for smokeless for numerous calibers. I have used reasonable smokeless loads in more than a few including a 40/75/260 Bullard built in the early 1880's. Never had a problem. YMMV.

[CowboyTutt]

Griff, we will always be friend's Bro! No worries. Very good past experiences and all that stuff!

Regards,

Your Friend, -A-

[hondo1892]

Blaine when you say modern BP guns that covers a bunch. But for muzzleloaders no. except the Savage which was designed for smokeless. Most muzzleloading barrel makers use 12L14 steel for barrels. I think the old T/C side slappers used this steel. Also the Italian revolvers use soft steel. Ed Rayl use to use the same barrel steel as modern rifle barrel makers use. But he would never recommend any thing but BP.
The other thing is the pressure curve that the powder has. At least that is what the professionals tell me. Some smokeless create less pressure but the pressure curve is different than BP which creates the problem. I've seen quite a few guns ruined from smokeless powder put in them.

[earlmck]

Folks routinely load smokeless to BP pressures in old BP Cartridge guns (Tutt is not the only one by far). They are made of the same old rather soft steel as muzzleloaders. So why should it be any different to load smokeless in a muzzleloader?

Yes, I know the brass case makes for a nice gasket so you would have to use more powder in the muzzleloader to equal the same velocity/pressure you got in the cartridge. And yes I know the cap used doesn't get enough fire into the breech to reliably set off the smokeless, but a small charge of black down at the bottom to set off our smokeless powder would be all you'd need. Probably even work with a flintlock that way. If you loaded your smokeless to BP pressures in your muzzleloader, what would be the big deal?

And these loads would always have 100% loading density so you'd have none of the powder position sensitivity we find in some of our smokeless loads where the powder occupies a small portion of the case volume.

[M. M. Wright]

Like Earl said, you'll be seating the bullet/ball against the powder with no space like you get in the old cartridges so the load info won't transfer. Would be sorta like having a 45 bullet jammed back in the case 'till it touches the powder. Makes for a lot more pressure.
Blaine, I really want to discourage your using 777. My experience has been that it is much more corrosive than regular black and requires multiple cleanings with hot, soapy water to get it to stop drawing moisture and growing white corrosive stuff in a barrel it has been used in. I know, some swear by it but I only swear at it. Use the real stuff.
OK, I admit to having used some duplex loads in my MLs. A little bit of Red Dot under a charge of Goex or Swiss does wonders for extending the number of shots before it gets really difficult to load. I like it in shot shells too but most people just should not go there.
I'm old enough to have hunted with old timers who swore that black powder shot shells patterned better than smokeless. Often those shells had a duplex load in them from the factory just to minimize fouling.

[JB]

Blaine, I really want to discourage your using 777. My experience has been that it is much more corrosive than regular black and requires multiple cleanings with hot, soapy water to get it to stop drawing moisture and growing white corrosive stuff in a barrel it has been used in. I know, some swear by it but I only swear at it. Use the real stuff.

Many say Pyrodex is in the same boat as being more corrosive than regular black powder. I'm a big fan of Blackhorn 209 though.

[Blaine]

Correct: I was talking about Muzzle Loaders, and C&Ball. My bad for not being more pacific.

[Griff]

Blaine, I really want to discourage your using 777. My experience has been that it is much more corrosive than regular black and requires multiple cleanings with hot, soapy water to get it to stop drawing moisture and growing white corrosive stuff in a barrel it has been used in. I know, some swear by it but I only swear at it. Use the real stuff.

Many say Pyrodex is in the same boat as being more corrosive than regular black powder. I'm a big fan of Blackhorn 209 though.

MM Wright, That is what I've found w/Pyrodex, I haven't used much 777, except in shotshells.

JB, Blackthorn 209 is a nitrocellulose based BP substitute. NEWS FLASH: Blackhorn 209 is not Black Powder; it is a Black Powder Substitute! By Chuck Hawks. It's my understanding it's not recommended for use where traditional C&B caps are needed, being harder to set off than BP. IIRC, it's not legal for SASS as a BP substitutte.

[AJMD429]

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=27410

[Blaine]

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=27410

That was nearly six years ago....I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.

[Ben_Rumson]

I've loaded reduced smokeless loads w/ fillers for years in several cartridge rifles & had lots of fun but I've seen hammers go to full cock & half cock in a muzzle loader from too much back pressure through the nipple w/BP... Dunno what would happen with a duplex charge of BP & smokeless in a muzzle loader... But I think it would defeat the reason for choosing smokeless in the first place.

[hondo1892]

If you all want to see how much smokeless it takes to blow up a 12L14 barrel take up a donation. I have several on hand in different calibers. I can't afford to blow up a $280.00 barrel but I put up the powder and firing mechanism. I think everyone will be surprised at the results.
Most of the old blackpowder cartridge rifles had hardened actions. This alone helps the old guns withstand smokeless powder rounds. However all those old guns will shoot loose if they are shot enough because of soft steel and iron. Many old cap and ball revolvers were shot so much they loosened up and that was from blackpowder only loads. Every steel and alloy out there are made to take so much stress. If you keep putting loads that are max or near max you are going to cause problems in any of the guns, smokeless or black.
I'm no metallurgist but I've had barrel makers and engineers that did know about metallurgy explain why certain steels will or will not hold up to smokeless powders. I can't remember everything I was told but I will take there word on the subject. Because I like having all my fingers and looking out of both my eyes.

[JB]

I've loaded reduced smokeless loads w/ fillers for years in several cartridge rifles & had lots of fun but I've seen hammers go to full cock & half cock in a muzzle loader from too much back pressure through the nipple w/BP... Dunno what would happen with a duplex charge of BP & smokeless in a muzzle loader... But I think it would defeat the reason for choosing smokeless in the first place.

I saw a hammer go to full cock and the nipple hit the ceiling once. Evidently corrosion and worked on the threads to the point where the nipple shot out like a bullet. That got the shooters attention!

[KiwiKev]

This video from CVA is oldie but a goodie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18

[ollogger]

My brother says pressure can rise rapidly in a ML even with black powder if you leave
the ram rod in the barrel & touch er off


Brad

[earlmck]

This video from CVA is oldie but a goodie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18

Thanks for that video, KiwiKev. But sheesh -- he uses 120 grains of HS6 to "proove" you shouldn't use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. Good grief, that would have blown apart any normal cartridge gun: loading it from the muzzle has nothing to do with it. Just for grins I tested that out in QuickLoad with the 50/140 cartridge, and COAL set to give 100% load density (like it would be in a muzzleloader). Well north of 200k psi. Even if I say the muzzleloader is 75% as good at using its powder as the cartridge gun and drop the load of HS6 to 90 grains I still get right at 200k psi predicted by QuickLoad.

Now in my muzzleloader/smokeless days with a Thompson/Center caplock replica I used 50 grains of 4064 that was ignited by 5 or 6 grains of black to power a 225 grain .452 pistol bullet. That gave about 1650 fps and was my deer load. 80 grains of FFG gave the same 1650 fps velocity but raised the hammer to half-cock. So I figured my 4064 load was giving less pressure than the overload of black. When I test that one in QuickLoad using a 454 Casull case with COAL adjusted to give 100% load density I ended up getting that 1650 fps with 40 grains of the 4064 and about 13.5K psi. And that's also where I got my estimate that the muzzloader is 75% as good at using its powder. But I'd bet those in-line design muzzleloaders are a lot better at handling their powder than 75%. And they wouldn't need that little dab of black to set off the smokeless like my old caplock did.

So when I asked "what's the big deal about using smokeless in a muzzleloader" I didn't mean to use a quantity of fast powder that would give 200k psi. That would indeed be a "big deal". But seems to me it is not the fault of the smokelessness of the powder, it is the fault of the waaaay to muchness and the way wrong burning rateness of the powder.

Yes, I'm sure you can blow up all the muzzleloader barrels you want using a mere 80 grains of HS6. Heck, use Bullseye and it should only take 60 grains. While you're at it go ahead and ruin a few 1886 Winchesters with the same load, just to occupy the day.

[AJMD429]

My brother says pressure can rise rapidly in a ML even with black powder if you leave
the ram rod in the barrel & touch er off...

Had a friend who did that....ramrod hit the target though...!

[jnyork]

3F black powder and a patched round ball have always worked very well for me, I hunted the pronghorn with a muzzlestuffer (real one) for 24 years and only got skunked once, never had one complain my load was insufficient. There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.

[Blaine]

3F black powder and a patched round ball have always worked very well for me, I hunted the pronghorn with a muzzlestuffer (real one) for 24 years and only got skunked once, never had one complain my load was insufficient. There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.

Very cool.... A 45?

[jnyork]

3F black powder and a patched round ball have always worked very well for me, I hunted the pronghorn with a muzzlestuffer (real one) for 24 years and only got skunked once, never had one complain my load was insufficient. There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.

Very cool.... A 45?

.50. MAN'S rifle.

[Griff]

And a flinter to boot!

[hondo1892]

JNyork that's cool. I've never seen deer that could tell the difference between the round ball and bullets either.

Wanting to use smokeless in a muzzleloader to me is like wanting to load an 1886 Winchester 45/70 to .458 Win levels. Never knew why people want make magnums out of non-magnums.

[Blaine]

3F black powder and a patched round ball have always worked very well for me, I hunted the pronghorn with a muzzlestuffer (real one) for 24 years and only got skunked once, never had one complain my load was insufficient. There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.

Very cool.... A 45?

.50. MAN'S rifle.

My T/C is a .54 Renegade, Ma'am.

[jnyork]

3F black powder and a patched round ball have always worked very well for me, I hunted the pronghorn with a muzzlestuffer (real one) for 24 years and only got skunked once, never had one complain my load was insufficient. There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.

Very cool.... A 45?

.50. MAN'S rifle.

My T/C is a .54 Renegade, Ma'am.

Massive overkill.

[jnyork]

JNyork that's cool. I've never seen deer that could tell the difference between the round ball and bullets either.

Wanting to use smokeless in a muzzleloader to me is like wanting to load an 1886 Winchester 45/70 to .458 Win levels. Never knew why people want make magnums out of non-magnums.

Thanks for that, Hondo.

I have always felt the same way about people trying to "hot rod" their firearms to wring out the last possible FPS and never a thought to accuracy. With centerfires, I simply load for the best accuracy and never mind the velocity, most accurate load is usually with a couple hundred FPS from max anyway and I have never met the elk that complained about the difference in 200FPS.

[AJMD429]

Wanting to use smokeless in a muzzleloader to me is like wanting to load an 1886 Winchester 45/70 to .458 Win levels. Never knew why people want make magnums out of non-magnums.

I use SR4957 in my muzzleloader not to get 'magnum 'performance, but just because there is less corrosive stuff to deal with, and because I already have the powder on hand, and because real black powder is pretty hard to find these days.

[earlmck]

I just watched the CVA video again that KiwiKev referenced https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18 . After thinking about it I can see why the warnings about not using smokeless in these muzzle-loaders: there are probably no pressure indicators until you get to "pipe-bomb" pressure levels. With our cartridge guns we at least see some sticky extraction as we exceed 65K psi --which is waaay more pressure than we want to subject our old guns too, but at least it is something. I would bet the CVA folks started with little dinky 50K, 70K, 90K psi loads and couldn't get anything to show. That's got to be why they got plumb to 120 grains HS-6 and well beyond 200K psi -- that's probably what it took to get the desired drama. The CVA fellow's admonition that (although it took me 120 grains of shotgun powder) you dasn't dare use ANY AMOUNT of smokeless or you'll do this same destruction doesn't compute with me. Big credibility gap.

Now with the old caplock you have the gasses trying to get back out the ignition hole, so as soon as you hit those upper-end BP pressure levels the hammer gets bounced up to half-cock and you know you have gone too far (although it does save you from having to pick the fired cap off the nipple ).

[Chuck 100 yd]

How about the guy that doe's safely load smokeless in his muzzleloader but gets distracted and loads a double charge or two bullets? I have known shooters,me included, who have loaded a bullet and forgot the powder, it happens to the best of us. A swamped barrel or a 7/8" across the flats barrel with a .50 ,.52, or .54 hole bored down the center leaves verry little meat to contain all that pressure.
Even black powder can build tremendous pressures. WWII era naval testing prooved that BP can generate pressures beyond 100K, although a 12ga. 3 dram BP shotgun load only runs in the 8-10K range,depending on many things.
If you insist on loading smokeless ,in a BP gun, I wish you luck. For me,I will be loading the real black.

[Griff]

If you insist on loading smokeless ,in a BP gun, I wish you luck. For me,I will be...

standing several blocks away!

[AJMD429]

Sometimes it is interesting to think of a question opposite to what everyone is asking .......

What would happen if you loaded up a 338 Lapua with black powder...?

[Griff]

Sometimes it is interesting to think of a question opposite to what everyone is asking .......

What would happen if you loaded up a 338 Lapua with black powder...?

A lower velocity and no small amount of smoke!!!

[Malamute]

Sometimes it is interesting to think of a question opposite to what everyone is asking .......

What would happen if you loaded up a 338 Lapua with black powder...?

I wouldn't be surprised if it had been done already. Theres a number of black powder 45 auto videos around, and someone mentioned shooting black in a 9mm. People comment on end of the world topics about getting black powder percussion guns in case smokeless couldn't be had. Id rather have a 45 auto black powder than a percussion revolver for protection. Most pistol rounds will work to varying degrees with black.

Paul Mathews used black in loading the 458 win mag.

[Chuck 100 yd]

My friend ,who runs the bowling pin matches at our gun club, wanted to pull a joke on a friend and loaded some .45 ACP rounds with BP. I gave him some 3F and suggested 100% charge. My friend reported that other than the smoke, those loads worked fine. The 1911 cycled fine and nocked pins down as well as Smokeless loads normally used. I suspect they would eventually foul the gun to a point that it would have issues though.
BP Loaded in a .338 Lapua you would just end up with a load similar to a souped up .38-55. Probably would be a great hunting load with cast bullets and much less recoil.

[Grandpa Ron]

Yes, there were some muzzleloaders that were designed for smokeless and there are some black powder era arms that can handle and have indeed have even been proofed for black powder.The old timers will even tell you of duplex loads of black and smokeless.

All of this makes for fine conversation but it does not change the fact that black powder arms are designed for black powder working pressures. Nor does it change the fact that asking any firearm to do what it was not designed for is just foolhardy.

Still, there are those who will ignore science and try to beat the odds.

[Blaine]

My brother says pressure can rise rapidly in a ML even with black powder if you leave
the ram rod in the barrel & touch er off


Brad

I have completely, 100% negated that problem by leaving the powder out from under the ball, and patch.

[claybob86]

I have completely, 100% negated that problem by leaving the powder out from under the ball, and patch.

That'll work!