Need 300 gr .45 Colt load help

[vancelw]

I'm hoping earlmk will pipe in...

In the past I have purchased several boxes of PMC ammo that was loaded with 300 gr XTPs. They chrono'd 1150 out of a 5.5" revolver and 1400 out of a 24" rifle. (Box said 1250). I've used these for hunting hogs and mule deer and am down to 2 boxes now, so seeking to reload.

I can't find published data that produces the same results. I'm using Blackhawks, Old Vaqueros, Redhawks, and a Miroku 1892 rifle, so they are plenty strong.

I prefer a load I can use Swift 300 gr A-frames but would be happy with Hornady XTP loads. Yes, I'm looking for deep penetration so the A-frames and the XTP mags should be okay.

Anybody know of any published data or willing to help with Quickloads? All liability is on me.

Swift 300 gr 452.jpg

Hornady 300 gr 452.jpg

[Malamute]

Linebaugh had some load info on his site, I think it was mostly cast though.


http://www.customsixguns.com/writings.htm

[vancelw]

Linebaugh had some load info on his site, I think it was mostly cast though.

I did see his page, and they were mostly cast and much lower velocities.

Underwood sells ammo in the speed range I listed with 300 gr XTPs, so I know it can be done. Not sure why PMC quit selling their version.

[Malamute]

His were lower velocities?

ETA: Just looked, he has 310's going 1330. Havent looked in detail yet.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/d ... e_myth.htm

In one section of loads he mentions that the data can be used with the various jacketed bullets of similar weight but velocities will be lower. He didn't way how much lower.

[Leverluver]

At one point, I was in the "industry" and did pressure tests on many different brands of bullets and loads for them. Swift are excellent bullets but due to their "tacky" nature (soft copper does not slide well), in all the calibers I tested (264 through 500N) I was not able to get the same velocity at the same pressure as other brands. So if you do get data for the XTP be careful in thinking that translates to the Swift. If it follows the general trend I saw, I'd say that you will probably drop 50 to 100fps from pistols at equivalent pressures.

[Malamute]

^^ Interesting, thanks for the comment.

[vancelw]

At one point, I was in the "industry" and did pressure tests on many different brands of bullets and loads for them. Swift are excellent bullets but due to their "tacky" nature (soft copper does not slide well), in all the calibers I tested (264 through 500N) I was not able to get the same velocity at the same pressure as other brands. So if you do get data for the XTP be careful in thinking that translates to the Swift. If it follows the general trend I saw, I'd say that you will probably drop 50 to 100fps from pistols at equivalent pressures.

Thanks. That's good to know. I'll make sure and start low and work up.

[earlmck]

I queried QuickLoad, and the software says 18.5 grains of Lil'Gun will get you 1400 fps at 20K psi. 18.8 grains of H110 got almost there at the same pressure. This should be OK pressure for the strong guns, though is waaay above SAAMI for 45 Colt set for the old guns. My COAL for this was 1.580". If you use a longer one then you'd need a bit more powder: shorter would need less.

QL has given me close velocity predictions with rifle length barrels but not so close with revolver length, so I used your 24" barrel for this.

[vancelw]

Thanks Earl. H110 seems to be the powder most often used....now to find some.
About the closest thing have is IMR4227

[Blaine]

Thanks Earl. H110 seems to be the powder most often used....now to find some.
About the closest thing have is IMR4227

Take a gander at some Blue Dot loads.....Not quite the potential for FPS as H110, but you use way less grs to "almost" get there. YMMV

[Les Staley]

I just ordered a Lee mold for 300 gr RNFP bullets for the Cashull and Colt. This will help to give me a starting point for loads. Will gas check them so should be able to boost them pretty good. Range report or obituary to follow..

[earlmck]

Vance, QL says that if you can cram 18.7 to 18.8 grains of your IMR 4227 in there (would be a firmly compressed load) you'd get about 1330 fps at a bit over 24K psi which should still be quite fine with your strongly built 45's.

My only 45 Colt rifle is a Rossi (actually chambered for 454 Casull) so I have shot those XTP magnums at 1600 fps with 21 grains of Lil' gun at what QL thinks should be about 30K psi. But I now have a nice new steel/plastic shoulder and it is not going to be subjected to those kind of loads ever again. 1400 fps sounds much nicer, and maybe 1200 fps with my new 220 grain cast bullet will be closer to about right for my purposes (tin cans and maybe a bunny if there are any to be found in this state).

And Les, QL says you'll need to add a grain of powder behind the Lee cast to get the same velocity (but a bit lower pressure) as with the XTP.

[vancelw]

Vance, QL says that if you can cram 18.7 to 18.8 grains of your IMR 4227 in there (would be a firmly compressed load) you'd get about 1330 fps at a bit over 24K psi which should still be quite fine with your strongly built 45's.

Well, I looked online and Lil Gun is readily available. Just have to pony up to buy...... (Stupid hazmat fees.... )
The current Western powders load guide lists several loads up to 30K, but most are with lead bullets.

Does 5744 end up being a compressed load?

Here's what the Hodgdon sight shows for 300 gr JSP

[TedH]

When I was playing with those heavy loads I used the 300 XTP, and the big LEE 310 gr. mold. That fat nosed LEE bullet is a thumper, and I was pushing it almost 1700 fps in my Winchester 94 Trails End. Those same loads were safe to shoot in my Vaquero, but they were no fun at all. H110/Win296 definitely gave the best performance. I have notes and data I used at home, I'll try to find it tonight.

[vancelw]

Thanks Ted. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel. I know its' been done before and just want to follow safely in those footsteps.
PMC emailed me back and said they did not continue the 45HA load I have when they bought out El Dorado (the previous owner of PMC)

The handgun I will be using these in now is my Ruger Redhawk Hunter with 7.5" bbl . These lever loads are not too bad in it. I wouldn't want to plink all day with them.... I sold my .454 Casull because these +P+ .45 Colt loads will get the job done as far as I can accurately shoot.

[Les Staley]

Thanks, Earlmck. It looks to me that a load at 100% density of IMR4227, not compressed should be safe enough to try. I will be happy with a moderate velocity, 1100-1200 fps, as long as it groups. I'll be trying these in my "soon (????) to be delivered" Bighorn 90A in 454 Casull. Hope they build it before I die!

[BrianSH]

Please remember that John L also said in his writings that this is not about "if I can see it, I can hit it" distances using cut-down rifles and calling it handgun hunting.
Its about sneaking up, getting close, and then hitting 'em with that brick. Whether 1000 feet or 1200 feet.
I've used 45 RedHawk - 5.5", and a 4" 629, and only recovered one bullet from the 44. The bullet - 240 gr XTP at 1150 went into the left clavicle, traveled through the lung, and recovered 2 days later (in the kitchen) stopped by the left thigh bone. He was looking straight at me at 50 yards, give or take. That's about 2.5 feet penetration on a hog. I'm not impressed with the talk of grisle plates.

I'm using 250 XTP in the 45 RedHawk and 240 XTP in the 44mag. I do have some 300 gr XTP in 45, but I've not shot anything with them yet. I do feel an increase in recoil with them over the 250's. - Brian

[RKrodle]

Vance, I sent you an email with some stuff I tried with the help of Mike Rintoul.

[Griff]

Vance,

Have you checked with B&B Guns & More in Terrell for your powder needs?

[Griff]

I'm hoping earlmk will pipe in...

In the past I have purchased several boxes of PMC ammo that was loaded with 300 gr XTPs. They chrono'd 1150 out of a 5.5" revolver and 1400 out of a 24" rifle. (Box said 1250). I've used these for hunting hogs and mule deer and am down to 2 boxes now, so seeking to reload.

Well, I looked online and Lil Gun is readily available. Just have to pony up to buy...... (Stupid hazmat fees.... )

Those loads should be right in line with your factory stuff, as those are listed as from a 7-¼" barrel.

[earlmck]

Those loads should be right in line with your factory stuff, as those are listed as from a 7-¼" barrel.

Yep -- QL thinks those 30K psi loads will be going around 1550 fps from your rifle. And QL thinks you should stay below 21.5 grains of the H110 if you want to keep below 30K psi.

And on the 5744 front, QL thinks 18.5 grains would fill the case, give a scosh over 1400 fps at a scosh under 30K psi. Maybe that would do everything you would want? If 30K pressure is OK with you? And remember, all these software projections are at a COAL of 1.58", so anything shorter would raise pressures dramatically.

[vancelw]

Vance,

Have you checked with B&B Guns & More in Terrell for your powder needs?

No. I haven't. I don't get to DFW as much as I used to since I'm working nights now. If I can get a couple of buddies to order with me, we can split the hazmat fees and come out pretty good. I've got a lot of powder and hate to keep adding new ones to my inventory.

If 5744 will get me there, I will probably try it. It's one of the more expensive powders, but I use it for a lot of loads so I buy it 8 pounds at a time.

Like I said, the original factory load I am trying to replicate was advertised at 1250 fps. I got 1150 out of a 5.5" bbl and 1400 fps out of a 24" bbl. I got through and through on every mule deer I ever shot with it. If I can work up a load using the A-frame instead of the XTP it would be great. I've seen A-frames that RKrodle dug out of a hog (shot longitudally on purpose) and was impressed with their performance. I bought several Swift A-frames at DSC in a silent auction.

(The original PMC 45HA load had Hornady JSP 300 gr bullets in it, not XTP or XTP mags as I erroneously reported earlier)

[vancelw]

Vance, I sent you an email with some stuff I tried with the help of Mike Rintoul.

I got it Ricky. Thanks. Were those velocities all out of your 16.5" trapper? If so, they should exceed what I'm looking for out of my 24".
I'll start low and work up. I may try 4227 and 5744 first. If I don't get the results I want, I'll get my hands on some H110.

[BigSky56]

I have been using 5744 in the 45 using 255 gr lead 19.5 grs for 1000+fps in a 7.5" bbl book says its 14K psi AA online data shows some hot 45+P with AA9 AA4100 and AA 5744 I have not tried the max load for the 255 at 1400 fps @ 30K psi. Ive got 300 gr HCGC but the 255 load Iam using will shoot thru a mulies chest havent found it lacking. danny

[piller]

Speer Manual #13, Fourth Printing, November 2001, page 586, 45 Colt loads for Ruger and Contender Only:

.451" Dia, 300 grain bullet, seated on rear cannelure, developed using copper crusher equipment to a pressure of 25,000 CUP

WW 296 powder, CCI Magnum large pistol primer
23.0 grains 1193 Muzzle Velocity
20.7 grains 1084 muzzle velocity

H110 powder, CCI Magnum large pistol primer
23.5 grains 1156 muzzle velocity
21.1 grains 974 muzzle velocity

H4227 powder, CCI large pistol primer
20.5 grains 985 muzzle velocity
18.5 grains 901 muzzle velocity


I can scan the page into my computer and e-mail it to you if you want. It also lists HS-7, 2400, AA#9, SR4759, and Unique loads.

[vancelw]

Piller, thanks for jogging my memory. I found my Speer #14 manual and and old Sierra manual I forgot I had. Those loads get close. I expected Hornady to be so conservative that I didn't even look in my manual.
It shows 296 getting the XTP to 1300 (out of a 10" bbl though). I was hoping I could use powder I had on hand, but it looks like I need to get some H110 or Win 296 when I get a chance.

[Griff]

Vance,

Have you checked with B&B Guns & More in Terrell for your powder needs?

No. I haven't. I don't get to DFW as much as I used to since I'm working nights now. If I can get a couple of buddies to order with me, we can split the hazmat fees and come out pretty good. I've got a lot of powder and hate to keep adding new ones to my inventory.

If 5744 will get me there, I will probably try it. It's one of the more expensive powders, but I use it for a lot of loads so I buy it 8 pounds at a time.

I'll check with them later this week and see what they have. I need a new 8lb jug of 5744 also.

[piller]

Vance, I don't have the chronograph results anymore, but I found that using my .480 Ruger out of my m92 I got better accuracy and velocity with H4227 than with H110, but my Super Redhawk pistol was the other way around. I have used more of the H4227, due to the fact that the lower velocity in the pistol is much easier on the hand at the range, and the accuracy is still better than I am able to make use of. Renting a rest at the range was the only way I could see the difference in accuracy with the pistol.

[JReed]

I used to load the Seirra 300gr soft point with a 18.5gr load of 2400. This was a brute in both of my vaqueros and in my 94. Deffinitly not safe in anything but big Rugers and 92's or 94's.

[earlmck]

I used to load the Seirra 300gr soft point with a 18.5gr load of 2400. This was a brute in both of my vaqueros and in my 94. Deffinitly not safe in anything but big Rugers and 92's or 94's.

Eeeyikes, Jeremy! QL thinks that one goes over 40K psi!

[Malamute]

I used to load the Seirra 300gr soft point with a 18.5gr load of 2400. This was a brute in both of my vaqueros and in my 94. Deffinitly not safe in anything but big Rugers and 92's or 94's.

Eeeyikes, Jeremy! QL thinks that one goes over 40K psi!

Really?

I loaded some 290 gr Keith style bullets in 44 mag cases with 18.5 grs 2400. They clocked 1225 fps in a 6" 29, with about 12 fps spread. Wonder how much difference the lead VS jacketed makes in that case? They are long bullets, lots of lead outside the case. Sort of like the Lyman 429421 only a little longer out front. 1.704" AOL

I used the same charge with a 300 gr TC type bullet with two crimp grooves, set at the longer groove in 45 Colt. They seemed relatively mild/moderate.

Wasnt there a change in 2400 and Unique a few years ago? Does that change the pressure? My 2400 and Unique both say Hercules on the can and date from the early 90's or late 80's

[JReed]

I used to load the Seirra 300gr soft point with a 18.5gr load of 2400. This was a brute in both of my vaqueros and in my 94. Deffinitly not safe in anything but big Rugers and 92's or 94's.

Eeeyikes, Jeremy! QL thinks that one goes over 40K psi!

Really?

I loaded some 290 gr Keith style bullets in 44 mag cases with 18.5 grs 2400. They clocked 1225 fps in a 6" 29, with about 12 fps spread. Wonder how much difference the lead VS jacketed makes in that case? They are long bullets, lots of lead outside the case. Sort of like the Lyman 429421 only a little longer out front. 1.704" AOL

I used the same charge with a 300 gr TC type bullet with two crimp grooves, set at the longer groove in 45 Colt. They seemed relatively mild/moderate.

Wasnt there a change in 2400 and Unique a few years ago? Does that change the pressure? My 2400 and Unique both say Hercules on the can and date from the early 90's or late 80's

I shot it over a chrono at just under 1300fps in a 7.5" Ruger. I too was using the Hercules from the late 90's. Once I shoot all those up I never went back for the heavies. The hottest i load now adays is a Ruger level load of Titegroup under 250 cast.

[earlmck]

Really?

I loaded some 290 gr Keith style bullets in 44 mag cases with 18.5 grs 2400. They clocked 1225 fps in a 6" 29, with about 12 fps spread. Wonder how much difference the lead VS jacketed makes in that case? They are long bullets, lots of lead outside the case. Sort of like the Lyman 429421 only a little longer out front. 1.704" AOL

I used the same charge with a 300 gr TC type bullet with two crimp grooves, set at the longer groove in 45 Colt. They seemed relatively mild/moderate.

Wasnt there a change in 2400 and Unique a few years ago? Does that change the pressure? My 2400 and Unique both say Hercules on the can and date from the early 90's or late 80's

QL says that one goes 21.5K psi, Malamute: essentially half the pressure of the above mentioned jacketed load. And the difference is not the lead vs jacketed so much as the COAL. Load 'em just a bit longer and it makes a major difference. For instance, the 300 grain jacketed at 1.58" goes over 41K, but at 1.68" would be under 30K. So it makes a huge difference which crimp groove you use when you have a bullet with two of them!

And yes, I understand that there is a significant difference between "new" 2400 and the old 2400 in the pressure curve department. The QL info would no doubt be with the new 2400 formulation.

[Malamute]

Very interesting, thank you for the information.

When I tried it, sort of out of the blue, and chronographed it, I was advised to leave it alone, as the velocity was good, and quite consistent. Its always been pretty pleasant to shoot, another reason not to mess with it.

I haven't tried any of the heavier loads with the new 2400, what I loaded in the past with the older powder has taken care of the little amount I shoot the heavier stuff. I suppose I should freshen up the loads I carry in the mountains though.

[Tactical Lever]

Maybe kind of an old post, but I just wanted to echo what Earl is saying about the overall length and the different bullets. You can use jacketed bullet data for cast bullets, but be careful of the reverse. Cast are not only softer under pressure, but shorter. And as mentioned have greater lubricity. When you try further infringing on the case volume with a longer for weight bullet, you may get a dangerous pressure. And a harder bullet seems to affect pressures also.

I like the Hornady XTP bullets, and have used them for a .357 but I think using a jacketed bullet out of a .45 is a waste of money. I will probably quit jacketed for just about every pistol cartridge and the 45-70 eventually. Right now I am shooting a Ruger Bisley with a 7.5" barrel loaded with 22.8 gr. of H110 or 18.1 gr. of Alliant 2400 behind a 300 gr. Bullet Barn FN and ignited with CCI primers (I would have to double check but I believe large pistol, non magnum). Seated to maximum length, or longer. I think I just kept seating until they were short enough to drop in the cylinder. I think the 2400 is just as fast, but feels less "sharp". I refer to this pistol as 3/4 of a 45-70, as I must be getting close to 1300 fps and the mild trapdoor pressured 405 gr. 45-70 are going that fast. Keep in mind, that primers make a difference also, and just switching to magnum can be quite a jump in pressure.

I will have to chronograph these some day, and in all likelihood I will probably stick with 2400, and a little less powder. It would probably be nicer to shoot with 150 less fps and still be a heck of a load. Amazing what those big lead slugs will do.

[vancelw]

His were lower velocities?

ETA: Just looked, he has 310's going 1330. Havent looked in detail yet.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/d ... e_myth.htm

In one section of loads he mentions that the data can be used with the various jacketed bullets of similar weight but velocities will be lower. He didn't way how much lower.

I was rereading this thread...I went back and looked at his page. The article I looked at on his .45 Colt loads showed mostly cast bullets or jacketed with lower velocities. One load was 40k pressure.
But today I saw the Heavyweight page
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/h ... ullets.htm
and he has some promising loads there under 30K. I may have "bleeped" over it earlier because I don't have any H110 on hand. I guess I need to buy some of it and some Lil Gun while it's available. May not be if I wait around.

I've been busy remodeling my reloading room and now I'm ready to do some loading....see how my work flow goes so I can do some final placement of equipment. This is as good a project as any, as I can test loads in the backyard...on targets with chrono and maybe on some hogs.

[JReed]

Really?

I loaded some 290 gr Keith style bullets in 44 mag cases with 18.5 grs 2400. They clocked 1225 fps in a 6" 29, with about 12 fps spread. Wonder how much difference the lead VS jacketed makes in that case? They are long bullets, lots of lead outside the case. Sort of like the Lyman 429421 only a little longer out front. 1.704" AOL

I used the same charge with a 300 gr TC type bullet with two crimp grooves, set at the longer groove in 45 Colt. They seemed relatively mild/moderate.

Wasnt there a change in 2400 and Unique a few years ago? Does that change the pressure? My 2400 and Unique both say Hercules on the can and date from the early 90's or late 80's

QL says that one goes 21.5K psi, Malamute: essentially half the pressure of the above mentioned jacketed load. And the difference is not the lead vs jacketed so much as the COAL. Load 'em just a bit longer and it makes a major difference. For instance, the 300 grain jacketed at 1.58" goes over 41K, but at 1.68" would be under 30K. So it makes a huge difference which crimp groove you use when you have a bullet with two of them!

And yes, I understand that there is a significant difference between "new" 2400 and the old 2400 in the pressure curve department. The QL info would no doubt be with the new 2400 formulation.

Looking at my notes I was at 1.62" not sure if that makes as big a differance as the the example above.