Winchester 1866 centerfire

[Daisyman]

I have an original 1866 Winchester carbine made in 1877. A few of the late ones like mine had a dual firing pin for use with the .44 Henry flat and the .44 Henry center fire. At one time I had a .44 Henry flat and I put it up so as not to lose it and haven't seen it since!! I wanted to measure it to see if I could find a center fire cartridge that could be made to shoot in it. Have any of you had any experience with doing that? I looked in Cartridges of the World and it shows both, but no measurements. Barnes says the .44-40 bullet will work in it, but the case I tried in it won't chamber past the bullet. Neither will .44 special.
I just think it would be fun to do for a few rounds.
Thanks, Irv

[blackhawk44]

According to page 563 of the Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, the .44Sp/Russian case is too large in diameter at the head and therefore recommends that the .220 Swift case be cut and trimmed to length (.88"), and inside reamed. It is listed with a bullet diameter of .423".

[Malamute]

I have an original 1866 Winchester carbine made in 1877. A few of the late ones like mine had a dual firing pin for use with the .44 Henry flat and the .44 Henry center fire. At one time I had a .44 Henry flat and I put it up so as not to lose it and haven't seen it since!! I wanted to measure it to see if I could find a center fire cartridge that could be made to shoot in it. Have any of you had any experience with doing that? I looked in Cartridges of the World and it shows both, but no measurements. Barnes says the .44-40 bullet will work in it, but the case I tried in it won't chamber past the bullet. Neither will .44 special.
I just think it would be fun to do for a few rounds.
Thanks, Irv

Wait, did you try a 44-40 bullet, or 44-40 cartridge? From the use in the sentence, you are using both terms interchangeably.

The 44-40 cartridge is going to be both longer and fatter at the body and base than than a 44 Henry Flat cartridge. Beyond the bullet, I doubt anything about a 44-40 will work in the original 66. The original 1866 guns made for the 44 rimfire or its centerfire version have shorter receivers and carriers (lifter block) than the modern reproductions, or the 1873 actually made for the 44-40.

How close is the 44 Colt cartridge in rim, base and neck?

[Daisyman]

I have an original 1866 Winchester carbine made in 1877. A few of the late ones like mine had a dual firing pin for use with the .44 Henry flat and the .44 Henry center fire. At one time I had a .44 Henry flat and I put it up so as not to lose it and haven't seen it since!! I wanted to measure it to see if I could find a center fire cartridge that could be made to shoot in it. Have any of you had any experience with doing that? I looked in Cartridges of the World and it shows both, but no measurements. Barnes says the .44-40 bullet will work in it, but the case I tried in it won't chamber past the bullet. Neither will .44 special.
I just think it would be fun to do for a few rounds.
Thanks, Irv

Wait, did you try a 44-40 bullet, or 44-40 cartridge? From the use in the sentence, you are using both terms interchangeably.

The 44-40 cartridge is going to be both longer and fatter at the body and base than than a 44 Henry Flat cartridge. Beyond the bullet, I doubt anything about a 44-40 will work in the original 66. The original 1866 guns made for the 44 rimfire or its centerfire version have shorter receivers and carriers (lifter block) than the modern reproductions, or the 1873 actually made for the 44-40.

How close is the 44 Colt cartridge in rim, base and neck?

I tried a 44-40 cartridge just to see if it would slide in at all. I knew it was way too long, I was just checking the case diameter. The lead bullet would go in up to the front end of the case, but that was it.

By "44 Colt cartridge" you were referring to, did you mean 44-40? I don't know how close the rim, base and neck is, that is what I was asking in my post. I was wanting to compare the two, but I lost my original round.

[Griff]

How close is the 44 Colt cartridge in rim, base and neck?

My 1st thought also. But it uses a heeled .451 bullet. Body is too fat, rim too small.

The 44 Colt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Colt
Base diameter: .456 in (11.6 mm)
Rim diameter: .483 in (12.3 mm)
Case length: 1.10 in (28 mm)
Overall length: 1.50 in (38 mm)

The .44 Henry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Henry
Neck diameter: .434 in (11.0 mm)
Base diameter: .441 in (11.2 mm)
Rim diameter: .518 in (13.2 mm)
Rim thickness: .062 in (1.6 mm)
Case length: .903 in (22.9 mm)
Overall length: 1.345 in (34.2 mm)

[Daisyman]

According to page 563 of the Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, the .44Sp/Russian case is too large in diameter at the head and therefore recommends that the .220 Swift case be cut and trimmed to length (.88"), and inside reamed. It is listed with a bullet diameter of .423".

Ah, now we're cookin! I'm not familiar with the book you are referring to, since I'm not a previous reloader. I've got a couple of standard reloading manuals but didn't know about that one. I just started thinking about doing this today, and thought I'd see what you guys thought. I'll see if I can locate some 220 swift brass at the next gun show. What would I have to use for a reloading die?
Thanks, Irv

[Daisyman]

How close is the 44 Colt cartridge in rim, base and neck?

My 1st thought also. But it uses a heeled .451 bullet. Body is too fat, rim too small.

The 44 Colt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Colt
Base diameter: .456 in (11.6 mm)
Rim diameter: .483 in (12.3 mm)
Case length: 1.10 in (28 mm)
Overall length: 1.50 in (38 mm)

The .44 Henry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Henry
Neck diameter: .434 in (11.0 mm)
Base diameter: .441 in (11.2 mm)
Rim diameter: .518 in (13.2 mm)
Rim thickness: .062 in (1.6 mm)
Case length: .903 in (22.9 mm)
Overall length: 1.345 in (34.2 mm)

Gee, I never thought to look on Wikipedia That's just what I was looking for. I'm sorry I don't understand some of this, but I don't know all the lingo of reloading yet.
Thanks,

[tman]

Always wanted a 1860 colt conversion to .44 Henry rimfire flat and 1860 Henry, until I saw what they go for . Could by a 67 L88 stingray for that. You got a great piece there

[claybob86]

How about posting a picture of that original 1866 Winchester carbine made in 1877?
Merry Christmas!

[Daisyman]

I can't get the pictures to post from Photobucket without linking to the whole album(s). There's a whole bunch of unrelated pictures on there I don't reckon everybody is interested in. I'll try again tomorrow or the next day. Anyone know how to post just the ones you want?

Thanks.

[Malamute]

Looks like you figured out how to attach them directly, but from photobucket, hover your cursor on the picture (don't even have to be logged in to photobucket), it will show 3 bars in the upper left corner, hover on that and it will give a couple options, one of which is "share". Click share, a menu will drop down. left click the "IMG" option, it should say it copied. Paste that IMG code into your message here, and it will show. You don't have to do anything with the forum menu at all regarding adding a photobucket picture, just ignore it.

[gamekeeper]

Beautiful old gun, I hope you get it to make smoke again....

[M. M. Wright]

Have you tried Buffalo Arms? Their web site list the 44 Henry Flat center fire for the original chamber at $1.40 each and you can't make 'em for that. Just cases but they have bullets and dies too and you want to load it with fffg.
That is one beautiful 66 and to me it just begs to be shot.
I didn't look but they may offer loaded ammo if you call them.
Merry Christmas!

[Daisyman]

Thank you all for the nice comments and the good advice. I'll take a look at Buffalo Arms after Christmas.

[Daisyman]

Thank you Malamute!! That certainly works better! It's amazing what you can learn on here.

P.S. Beautiful dog, by the way. My son used to raise those and he sure had some pretty ones.

[Malamute]

Do you have other parts for that gun, or just whats in it? The bolt face doesn't look like its set up for centerfire in the picture. The rimfire firing pins show on the outsides of the bolt face, do they move freely?

[Daisyman]

The parts appear to be all there. It's hard to tell and I haven't exactly figured out how it works but it appears both of the firing pins move when I operate the lever slightly with it all the way open. I've looked at all the schematics I can find, but they're of the earlier guns and they have the firing pin only in the center, not with the additional two on the outside edges. Do you suppose the Henry flat cartridge fired from the center, not on the edge? If that's the case, why the need for the second one to hit on the on the rim. Hmmm, I don't get it. I really don't want to take it apart, but I guess I should and try and figure the durned thing out.
Irv

[Malamute]

In rimfire configuration, it had twin firing pins to hit the rim in two places simultaneously. The center of the bolt face has a depression in it, but it doesn't look like a firing pin, it looks much wider and flatter. Does the center depression move when the firing pin collar moves?

[Daisyman]

You know, I'd have to agree with you. I can't tell if the center is moving or not, and you're right, it really looks too flat to be a firing pin. I can't see good enough to tell. If you try Googling " Winchester 1866 parts schematic" all the ones that come up shows a single firing pin in the center. It's actually a 2 piece affair, one is the "firing pin extension" that cocks the hammer and the other is the actual firing pin. I think they're held together with a cross pin. I don't know why they show it that way.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
That is a nice 1866 . Thank you for posting those fine photos. It would be a joy to be able to shoot one.
Years back some one was making a replacement breach for these that had the center firing pin. Some have used 41 mag brass as a substitute but far better to buy the real "replacement" brass. I recently bought some new Burnside brass which was $4.50 a wack so to me $1.40 sounds like a good price.
Mike in Peru

[Hawkeye2]

The 1866 and the Henry had a dual tip firing pin which struck the rim of the cartridge in two places to insure reliable ignition. The priming compound was placed in the case as a liquid and the case spun so the priming was distributed around inside the rim by centrifugal force which didn't always fill the rim uniformly. No 1866 Winchesters were ever made that were capable of firing both rim and centerfire cartridges. The centerfire version of the '66 had a different bolt and firing pin assembly. I believe the reason you are seeing a firing pin with a single tip in the parts schematics is that they are using a schematic for the reproduction '66s because it is easy to find and reproduce. All my Winchester reference material is packed away, not even remotely accessible, but if my memory is correct a final run of 1866's were made in centerfire under a contract for a country somewhere south of the Rio Grande and may have been for 2,000 rifles in the early 1890's.

[Malamute]

I've been looking at the drawings in a catalog from the 1860's. Its similar to some I've seen online, but has the parts descriptions and the image is easier to see. In the drawing, the actual firing pins is a collar that goes on from the front with a threaded hole through it, the long pin from the back threads into it. The drawing shows the hole goes all the way through the firing pin collar(firing pin in this case is somewhat of a misleading term in how we think of them. Its a short collar with the small nubs that actually fire the cartridge. It also basically is the bolt face or breech face). The depression in the center of your bolt in your picture is the threaded end of the long firing pin extension that cocks the hammer, everything that looks like the bolt face is the firing pin collar. None of the images I've seen online are large enough or clear enough to see well. Hope that description makes sense. The original terminology is completely different than we are used to.

The modern copies aren't at all similar in the bolt parts and how they assemble or function, judging from the original drawings. They more resemble 1873's. The rimfire guns were much simpler with less parts than the modern parts breakdowns look.

ETA: I found a clear image online.

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/images/E ... 20View.jpg


In the image, figure 7 is the firing pin (collar type piece, in original terminology the breech pin snapper, or snapper)

figure 5 (same as A) is the firing pin extension, or piston in original term) it threads into the snapper or firing pin collar through what we would call the bolt (as shown in figure 3)

Back on topic of shooting your gun, Navy Arms has had some 44 rimfire ammunition made in Brazil I believe. It was made several times in limited runs, it has been quite awhile since any has been made. It turns up at gun shows now and then, but is expensive now. Its about the only game around for being able to shoot your gun.

Dixie Gun Works has a machined adapter that allows use of 22 rimfire blanks to fire the case. With the twin firing pins, you may need to make a relief cut on the opposite side of the adapter rim for clearance. The info about the product says they cant be used with henrys and 66's because of the twin firing pins. In any event it would be a single load into the chamber sort of thing, but would allow you to fire the gun if you could sort out the clearance fore the opposite side firing pin tip.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_in ... ts_id=8152

[w30wcf]

Daisyman,
NICE piece of Winchester history you have!

One thing I don't think has been mentioned before....the barrel might be a true .44, that is .440" groove diameter (?) like the original Henry's were.

The .44 Henry is like the .22 rimfire in that it was loaded with heeled bullets and the case o.d. and bullet o.d. are the same or very close to the same. Here is a sectioned pic.



Unless you were willing to have a new firing pin made to convert to center fire, the cases from Dixie Gun Works could be used but would need to be modified slightly (slight relief cut for the other firing pin) OR removing one of the firing pins OR having a duplicate firing pin made with just 1 protrusion.

Original Henry cartridges usually sell for $25 and up and would not fire since the priming compound has long since died.

Here's a pic of some of the variations I have.



w30wcf

[Malamute]

Unless you were willing to have a new firing pin made to convert to center fire, the cases from Dixie Gun Works could be used but would need to be modified slightly (slight relief cut for the other firing pin) OR removing one of the firing pins OR having a duplicate firing pin made with just 1 protrusion.



w30wcf

I agree with your basic idea.

I don't have an example to look at, and cant find images online, but I believe what we call firing pin(s)
is a short round collar (fig 7 in illustration) that is basically the majority of the bolt face (with a thin rim of actual bolt face exposed around the outer edge), attached to the long breech pin through the center of the bolt. The small depression in the center is the tip of the long breech pin (fig 5), or firing pin extension. To remove "one pin" would necessitate grinding one side off, as they are a one piece unit. If it can be gotten apart, a decent gunsmith or machinist could duplicate the part and leave off one side of the protrusion. I suppose it could be converted to centerfire by machining a new part that replaced the so-called firing pins (breech pin snapper) collar, leaving off the rimfire protrusions, and either making a firing pin nub in the center of it, or extending (make new longer one) the long breech pin (or firing pin extension, fig 5, or a) into a firing pin.

From the original drawings, it looks like the extractor has a groove machined into the top of the breech pin extension, and probably serves to help lock it together. I believe the extractor would have to be removed before the breech pin can be unscrewed from the "firing pin" (breech pin snapper) collar.

[Hawkeye2]

Before anyone goes further down the road of encouraging Daisyman to convert this rifle its value in original configuration might be taken into consideration. This isn't just a vintage 94 and it could bring anywhere from $8,000 to $35,000 depending on rarity and condition. A conversion that couldn't be easily undone by reinstalling the original unmodified parts will seriously cut into its value and destroy its history.

[Daisyman]

Thanks to all of you for the valuable information and compliments.

Malamute, I understand exactly what you're saying now. I think the movement I saw in the center might be the threaded part of the firing pin extension moving ever so slightly in the bolt face, and it is just a rim fire type. I had also looked at the schematic you posted, but really couldn't figure out the "dual firing pin thing". As hawkeye2 says, they never had one!

w30wcf, I kinda thought maybe those were inside like a .22, although is the first I've heard the term "heeled bullets". Thanks for the pic of them! And yea, I had an original and put it up, but WHERE??

Hawkeye2, Thanks for the clarification on the centerfire version. I looked in the definitive work by Bill West, 'Winchester Complete" that covers all the variations of Winchesters between 1866 and 1976 and he does mention them, "some carbines over 168000 were Henry C.F., but that's all that's said. Mine is 169xxx. so I thought maybe.......

And you are correct, this gun is really nice, IMHO, so no, I'm not going to alter it just to shoot it. I haven't even taken it apart for a thorough cleaning for fear of slipping off a screw and putting a nice scratch in the receiver. Leave it to me to put a ding in it after 140 years! I think I'll just enjoy it as it is.......

I bought this gun back in the early 80's when I was still raising a family and money wasn't too plentiful, but the price was very reasonable for a 66, so I just bit the bullet, so to speak, and bought it. I'm glad I did, because there's no way I could have ever afforded one otherwise since.