Magnets + Magazines = Rust

[JohndeFresno]

There is something about magnets that apparently eludes me. Maybe others, too.

This is a warning and a query for those who use magnetic strips to hold something in storage. I am hoping that one of you rocket scientists - there are a few here, at least in my opinion - to chime in with an answer to this mystery.

Scene and ambient conditions:
Several firearms are stored in a safe within a controlled environmnet - dessicants inside, temperature and humidity stabilized outside with very little airflow and no excessive moisture in the air.

Situation:
Flat metal magnetic strips with adhesive backing, sold specifically to store metal items on safe walls or door to save space, were installed inside a safe. Several blued metal pistol magazines and nickel plated rifle magazines (I think all lightly oiled), were placed on the magnet strips. They were unmoved for a few months.

Tried to pull a few off today for range duty, discovered they developed some rust and would not easily budge.

Why? Is there some property of magnets that attract waters moisture, somehow? Is it the magnet that is prone to rust? I didn't oil the magnet strips.

Possible solution:
Clean up mags, put Prolix or similar high quality rust preventive on both mags and magnets, and perhaps add a thin layer of cotton of cloth over the magnets between the two?

Nothing else in the safe shows any signs of corrosion. All weapons were treated with a thin layer of Prolix and are periodically inspected, and there is a fair amount of silica dessicants, monitored for moisture retention, inside the safe.

Any ideas or answers? Thanks in advance.

[vancelw]

Not sure about how magnetism would affect the corrosion of the metal.
It might be so simple as no air flow. If no air is moving the dehumidifier and dessicants can't do their job.
I don't think I'd try cotton between the magazine and the magnet. Cotton absorbs moisture and I sure wouldn't soak it in oil.
If you try a cloth layer, maybe try something that will breathe or wick moisture away. Polyester or thinsulate.

The only problem I've ever had with guns rusting/molding in a safe was from impeded circulation of air.

[KWK]

I'll guess it's some chemical in or on the strip magnet, perhaps the plasticizer.

[harry]

Your not shooting enough.

[octagon]

JdF, I use Rare Earth magnets in my shop for various purposes and have for 20 years. These come with a chrome? Plating and I store em under my main vise, a painted surface. They eventually rust and it seems to occur with or without the plating, which eventually flakes off, making them less effective in sliding over surfaces. I might try a light coat of enamel paint or wax to slow down the rust, why it happens in the first place, I have no idea, but magnetism must increase the rate of oxidation somehow.

[AJMD429]

This is my THEORY only, but...
Maybe the more magnetizable the alloy the more prone to rust. After all it has to have more iron or something. Then when one metal rusts it always seems to make adjacent ones rust, perhaps due to becoming more hygroscopic in the process of rusting.

Addendum: looks like maybe the magnetic field affects electron attraction so that of course would affect the chemical reactions of rust (duhh should have seen that one coming). http://www.ifw-dresden.de/de/institute/ ... t-magnets/. I guess that would also explain why the rust might be increased on the attracted and therefore at least temporarily magnetized objects in contact with the magnet.

Kind of makes you wonder about those firearm holding magnets advertised for use under a desk or counter top...

I also came across this article which was interesting, concerning stainless steel and magnetism and rust.

https://eatonfiltration.wordpress.com/2 ... iltration/

Evidently a given type of stainless steel actually has different composition depending on whether it is subsequently intended to be cast or wrought; in this case "316 Stainless".

[JohndeFresno]

Thank you, all.

Yes, I'm definitely not shooting enough!

Air is indeed restricted.

I don't know about how the strips were processed, but it is unfortunate that these were sold without some warning about one needing to periodically remove their objects, especially any handgun, and treat them again to prevent rust. I'm glad my casualties were only magazines, although the Cobra 8 round .45's - a whole slew of 'em - were not cheap.

And these magnet strips are the same ones, I believe, that are also sold for placement on a flat surface like the underside of a desk, so thank you Octagon for the anecdotal info and Doc for all of that research.

Since I have never had a rust problem before with my Prolix treatment of articles and periodic inspection, it looks like the magnets go to the trash can (If i can tear them out without ruining the safe carpeting, or at least they just won't be used. And the mags, after a bath in Kroil and some TLC, will go into a small open cardboard box where I can check them more easily.

I sure wouldn't recommend these for anybody else.

[92&94]

The ferrite particles in the magnetic strip are iron oxide - at a guess that might have something to do with it even though the valence of iron in ferrite is different than that in rust. One is +3 and the other +4, but I can never remember which is which.

Alternatively, any moisture in the air, should it condense, would wick into the joint between the magazine and the magnetic strip. If it did the same with a rare earth magnet (no ferrite, AFAIK) then I would guess it was this. If no rust with a non-ferrite magnet, then it more likely has something to do with the magnetizing compound in the strip being an oxide of iron.

If the rust is not deep on the mags, you can strip it (and likely the finish) off with a chelating rust remover and re-blue or re-park the mag body.

[JohndeFresno]

...you can strip it (and likely the finish) off with a chelating rust remover and re-blue or re-park the mag body.

Thank you.

A bit on the rocket science side for me, since I'm not familiar with ions, valences and such; and looking up the word "chelate" confused me a bit more. That's what I get for not taking chemistry in high school or later.

But I understood the gist of it. I will be putting the mags into Kroil shortly, and hoping that I can then work off the rust without going through the time consuming (or expensive, if hired out) process of reblueing.



Update: I got the plates out of the safe without damage to its inner covering. I had forgotten that I just installed them by allowing just the magnet to hold them in place through the carpet against the underlying steel safe walls, instead of using the sticky backing. I guess I'll save them for picking up spilled nails and such.

[92&94]

The chelating rust remover might work plenty slick on the stainless mags with no refinishing.

You could also rust blue the others at home easily enough. Hard part is taking them apart so as to not rust the spring.

How long did this take to happen? You could put a barrier between the mag strip and the magazines, like plastic wrap or a sheet of something. I've seen rust resist paper, maybe some of that - I don't think the problem was moisture wicking, but it's hard to say, this is all just spit balling after all. If it were, the paper would probably not help. If it's ferrite from the mag strips, any barrier should do a dandy job. I assume the wall of the safe isn't rusted because it's painted. You could put a strip of painted steel over the magnets, that would likely solve the problem and keep the pull about the same strength.

EDIT:

Now I'm not so sure, the pattern on some of those really does look like wicked in moisture.

How about a couple steel rods stuck to the magnets? Minimize surface contact but still have a magnetic field. You could try it with 1/16" welding rod if you have any.

[JohndeFresno]

...rust blue [them]...Hard part is taking them apart so as to not rust the spring...

Good suggestion. Most of the rust is coming off, but I'll see where this leads. I'm still soaking the mags in a shallow tray after having worked on them with ordinary paper towels.

How long did this take to happen?

I checked through my receipts. I installed the strips on or about 7-22-2013, purchased from Dean Safe (online), advertised as magnetic safe strips for gun storage. I did not need these extra mags immediately, and only removed them once or twice since then, and I believe it was only shortly after they were clamped into the safe. So they stayed undisturbed with the rust undiscovered for a 1 1/2 years. It could have been worse.

Another purchase from that company was a good one - their gun hangers, which are rubber covered metal rods that fit over the front of a shelf and allow you to store handguns compactly, sliding the tip into the barrel, presenting the grip to the front and barrel to the back of the safe. It solved my handgun storage problems.

But I'm not happy that the magnets were advertised without any warnings about rust.

...You could put a barrier between the mag strip and the magazines...
...How about a couple steel rods stuck to the magnets? ...

Too iffy, I think.

Too wobbly, as I reach for other contents in the safe.

The painted metal thing might work, if I had the materials on hand. But then I wonder if the same thing would happen, once the metal plate becomes magnetized.

No, I think I'll just forget about the magnets and store the mags in a small box, not necessarily inside the safe. I have some magnets with hooks that work well for a similar situation elsewhere, but I'm done with the strip magnet business.

Time to check on the mags and possibly do a little light work on them with some steel wool.

Hopefully these postings will warn others not to trust this method of storage, especially for gun parts or handguns that are stored for long periods in spaces with little or no air flow.

I appreciate all of the suggestions and insights, 92&94. Thanks again, all.

[Rusty]

FWIW there is a process called reverse electrolysis that will remove rust from parts. Without using any electrical conections you can also put some Arm & Hammer Washing soda in some warm water ( 2 tablespoons per gallon is enough) and place this solution in an aluminum pan. De-grease the item in question. Place the rusted item into the pan for several hours. Keep checking the progress and leave it in as long as needed. You will find the rust collecting on the bottom of the pan.

[JohndeFresno]

...Arm & Hammer Washing soda in some warm water ( 2 tablespoons per gallon is enough) and place this solution in an aluminum pan...De-grease...Place the rusted item into the pan for several hours...

Great one, Rusty. I'll check stuff tomorrow and try that, if the Kroil didn't work. So far, most of the rust came off the magnets.

[JohndeFresno]

Unsolicited Endorsement: Kroil
Yesterday, the magazines were soaked in Kroil for a couple of hours, then received some modest attention from steel wool.
They were then left with a thin coating of the stuff, which I poured back into the can.

Here is what they looked like 24 hours later

The chelating rust remover might work plenty slick on the stainless mags with no refinishing.

You were absolutely right, again assuming that the word "chelating" actually means something! Look at the stainless mags, 92&94.

A little more touchup, perhaps later, should take out some more discoloration. Then, a coat of Prolix. I think the black stuff will be permanent on the nickel, where the plating was eaten away, but I won't prolong this thread with another follow-up. I am glad the Kroil saved the blued and stainless pieces.

As for the magnets - approximately $50.00 after shipping - they will probably do a better job holding up some tools on a metal cabinet somewhere. In fact, that is why I gave them to my good neighbor and friend. But I told him how stuff rusts in a closed environment.

[piller]

Magnets do indeed speed up the Red-Ox reactions. If you want the steel oxidized, then by all means, use a magnet on it. If you want it reduced, which makes it less prone to oxidation, then you need to put a sacrificial anode in the loop. Magnesium is what we used as the sacrificial anode for well heads. Talk to someone at a company that specializes in cathodic protection and you will really get a good idea of how to do it. In this case, the magnet has acted like a half cell, and is causing the oxidation of the most easily oxidized metal. The place where the magnet was on the safe wall should be the least oxidized place in the entire safe.

[Griff]

I'd take a thin strip of steel, (like 18ga), wide enough to cover top, bottom & exposed side; have it powder-coated, and use it to protect the mating surface of your mags to magnetic strip. Bent to shape around the magnetic strip before powder coating.

[JohndeFresno]

Input appreciated, Piller and Griff.

Neighbor now has magnets; I guess I can advise him! Good

Magazines (empty) now sitting comfortably in a box above the safe.

Good follow-up info for the rest of us.

[afish4570]

...rust blue [them]...Hard part is taking them apart so as to not rust the spring...

Good suggestion. Most of the rust is coming off, but I'll see where this leads. I'm still soaking the mags in a shallow tray after having worked on them with ordinary paper towels.

How long did this take to happen?

I checked through my receipts. I installed the strips on or about 7-22-2013, purchased from Dean Safe (online), advertised as magnetic safe strips for gun storage. I did not need these extra mags immediately, and only removed them once or twice since then, and I believe it was only shortly after they were clamped into the safe. So they stayed undisturbed with the rust undiscovered for a 1 1/2 years. It could have been worse.

Another purchase from that company was a good one - their gun hangers, which are rubber covered metal rods that fit over the front of a shelf and allow you to store handguns compactly, sliding the tip into the barrel, presenting the grip to the front and barrel to the back of the safe. It solved my handgun storage problems.

But I'm not happy that the magnets were advertised without any warnings about rust.

...You could put a barrier between the mag strip and the magazines...
...How about a couple steel rods stuck to the magnets? ...

Too iffy, I think.

Too wobbly, as I reach for other contents in the safe.

The painted metal thing might work, if I had the materials on hand. But then I wonder if the same thing would happen, once the metal plate becomes magnetized.

No, I think I'll just forget about the magnets and store the mags in a small box, not necessarily inside the safe. I have some magnets with hooks that work well for a similar situation elsewhere, but I'm done with the strip magnet business.

Time to check on the mags and possibly do a little light work on them with some steel wool.

Hopefully these postings will warn others not to trust this method of storage, especially for gun parts or handguns that are stored for long periods in spaces with little or no air flow.

I appreciate all of the suggestions and insights, 92&94. Thanks again, all.

Just checked my strips holding my magazines onto my safe too. A few mags were actually stuck to strips and a couple that had been there for 8 or more years. Two has blemish marks but no rust. I usually wipe all my mags with a lambs wool (chunk of buffing bonnets bought a Lowes) and saturated with RIG (rust inhibiting grease). The amount of grease is heavier after recharging the small 3"X3" pieces I cut them into. After using for wiping down pistols or long guns they have enough grease on them to make them leave a protective finish without a GREASY feeling. Trial and error. Been doing this on my target pistols and hunting guns for 25 yrs. or more. When hunting I rewipe everyother day. Wiping snow or rain soaked guns off with a soft paper towel or soft cloth. I pistol shoot on a sandy range and drop mags into the moondust all the time. Wipe off on my jeans is all I usually do.Thanks for the warning too, I am glad I rewiped all the mags on the magnetic strips. afish4570

[JohndeFresno]

...Thanks for the warning too, I am glad I rewiped all the mags on the magnetic strips. afish4570

Good work, all. Saved a fellow levergunner some problems or possible loss.

[octagon]

JdF, I would offer one more tip, gathered from my shop. If you use paper towels to wipe guns as you described above, they can and will cause scratches in a wood finish. I clean, wipe and polish finishes, daily (for many years) and paper towels will cause what I call angel hair scratches. I use blue shop towels which are much softer, and very rarely scratch. Soft cotton cloths will also scratch (like red shop towels) if contaminated, the red ones are often used white ones that are dyed, the white shop towels are new as far as I can tell, and are pretty safe to use on fine finishes. I hope you and others might find this info useful.

[JohndeFresno]

JdF, I would offer one more tip, gathered from my shop. If you use paper towels to wipe guns as you described above, they can and will cause scratches in a wood finish. I clean, wipe and polish finishes, daily (for many years) and paper towels will cause what I call angel hair scratches. I use blue shop towels which are much softer, and very rarely scratch. Soft cotton cloths will also scratch (like red shop towels) if contaminated, the red ones are often used white ones that are dyed, the white shop towels are new as far as I can tell, and are pretty safe to use on fine finishes. I hope you and others might find this info useful.

Thank you, Octagon.

Those new microfiber cloths are amazing, too. I use clean ones to keep the 'puter screen clean, and don't need cleaner - just a little good ol' spit on stubborn spots.

The paper towels were used on the rusted mags and magnets (but not any guns) because they are slightly abrasive.

[octagon]

JdF you are more than welcome. Appreciate you receiving those tips in the spirit in which they are given! As a guy who examines finishes under bright lights and magnification daily, I have learned these things the hard way. The older I get, the better I am at learning from the experiences of others, without having to pee on the electric fence for myself.

[AJMD429]

I'd strongly consider using CeraKote or DuraCoat for those magazines. They'll probably be better than 'new' in terms of corrosion resistance.

[JohndeFresno]

I'd strongly consider using CeraKote or DuraCoat for those magazines. They'll probably be better than 'new' in terms of corrosion resistance.

Good idea, especially for long term storage - that's in fact why these magazines were put inside the safe on magnets. I see where there are Dura-Coat kits available for easy home application.

UPDATE: I found an excellent short video showing tips and the procedure - applying Duracoat to AR15 magazines, here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpui7ymcb94

It is worth downloading and saving if you have fast Internet capability. But it is 37MB in size. For those who wish a permanent download and have this capability but don't have the free YouTube Downloader, here is the link for the saved file:
https://app.box.com/s/u1e9woret7f2vgf7ejmom6cjb9wtt644