Review discussion...

[mikld]

It's been quite a while since I remember reading anything about the "old" discussion about 308 Winchester versus 30-06 Springfield. Just performance wise, not availability of ammo or brass. Is one better accuracy wise? Does one out preform the other with the same weight/style bullets? (say more than 100 fps?). Will one do anything the other won't for the average shooter? Looking at a reloading manual the '06 seems to have a slight edge in velocity with the same bullet, but with higher charges.

I was rifle shopping a couple weeks ago and found the rifle I was looking for, but I wanted it in 30-06 and the shop only had one in .308, didn't buy it. I reload and I have quite a bit of 30-06 brass and .30 caliber bullets and 308 brass (7.62x51) is readily available so that is of no concern. So, jes thinking, is one better than the other?

So, can youz guys refresh my memory...

[3leggedturtle]

The '06 is better if you are going to be shooting more 180-200gr bullets, 308 if you are happy with 165gr and lighter. Thats what all the older gun rags used to say, when I read about those 2. If you have more '06 brass then go with that unless you really want another caliber to load and shoot for.

[Blaine]

IIRC, Phil Shoemaker, the consummate brown bear hunter, thinks that an '06 with 200-220 grain Nosler Partitions is just fine.

[arjunky]

Just looked up Hornady superperformance 165's for both and with roughly +/-140 fps apart , I doubt anything less than 300 yards away will know the difference.
I'm sure if you got into 200+ grain loads more of a gap exists.
Byron

[AJMD429]

I'm thinking the overlap is so great that I'd go with whichever one I already was set up to reload for.

There might be more 308 bulk/surplus ammo available, and there might be a time when the authorities decide 308 is contraband due to being too 'current military', and there might be an advantage to the 30-06 with heavier bullets the average shooter could take advantage of, and someone might make a 308 with a significantly shorter bolt/lever throw, and there might be an advantage to having both since you could use either ammo if you got a bunch in a trade or whatever.

My 2 cents and worth every penny...

[1894]

... So, jes thinking, is one better than the other?..

Either one may be better than the other one depending on what you are looking for.
But BOTH are always more better than just one

[Panzercat]

As I recall in my research, anything out to 600-800 yards(?) won't notice the difference. 30.06 comes into its own in longer ranges and heavier bullet weights due to the case dimensions. The analogy that has always been made to me is that at the top end of .308 is where mid range 30.06 begins. That's not saying that .308 isn't a competent round. it's routinely employed out to 1000 yards. Just the 30.06 is more flexible in that range and further out.

[tman]

I'd go with the .308 .if it meant a smaller, lighter action, Example the BLR levers. Ithink the .308 does better out of shorter barrels. On the other hand, if both rifles are the same weight and size, the 06 has it beat in range and better with big bullets, mentioned above, Both great, just different.

[Lastmohecken]

I have both, but don't reload for either, mainly because on these two calibers, I always found ammo too common and easy to come by, so just always found factory good enough. Since I am mostly a deer hunter, I found the .270 more to my liking then the 06, in bolt guns, but being a lover of lever actions, I finally decided to give a Browning BLR a try in .308 because it wasn't available at that time in .30-06 or .270, and knowing the ballistics of the .308 I didn't think I was giving up that much for a quicker handling rifle. What I found out was that yes I had a wonderful handling lever action, hardly any longer or heavier then a Marlin 336, but with another 150yds of reach and all of the accuracy I could handle.

I found that the .308 kicked less too, or seemed to, anyway. I also found that when loaded with 180 Winchester factory Silvertips, that it dropped game with boring regularity, and shot about as flat as the old 06, at least for the first 300yds and that covered about 95% of any shooting I needed to do.

Personally, I believe that most performance differences between 30-06 and .308, hardly matter under most hunting conditions, and would almost always make the choice of caliber based on what kind of gun I wanted to use. And the older I get the less I am inclined to choose a longer heavier rifle, caliber choice be dammed, except for the fact that I sometime get bored and just want to try something I haven't used, but it's still the launcher I am interested in more then the missile, as long as the missile meets certain minimums required to be effective.

[Panzercat]

Yeah, i forgot that. The Savage 99 .308 I had in my possession for a short amount of time was a pretty soft shooter. Can't comment on the traditional throw of the action in a side lever format, but it is notably shorter mechanically. Unless you need the legs at 1k yards, .308 will probably do everything you want...

...But I still want a 30.06 rifle

[Sixgun]

There's virtually no difference if the twist rates are the same....what? 100-200 fps. Most 308's come with a 1-12 twist where the 06 usually comes with. 1-10. The 1-10 twist handles the heavier bullets ......a little better.

What I do know and have experience in is that the 1-10 twist will shoot those 220 grain Lymans into clay birds at 500 meters.----6

[Grizz]

I thought the military went to the 762x51 because it worked better in machine guns and made for a shorter action rifle.

My neighbor in Alaska killed over 50 brown bears with a 30-06 shooting 225gr loads. I don't know why you couldn't load 225s in .308 if the velocity decrease is acceptable. With heavy duty targets a heavy duty bullet is more important than the impact velocity.

A sniper in Felujah stated that the .308 worked so well at the ranges he was working from because the bullet had slowed down enough to allow full expansion on the passage through, enhancing the results.

But if you WANT a 30-06 I want to see a picture of it in the wild doing its thing . . .

[Panzercat]

If this is the guy I recall correctly, he has some things to say about the cartridge...

"The .30-06 just can't beat a .308."
"The .30-06 recoils too much."
"The .30-06 case is too long for real accuracy."
"Everyone knows the military switched from .30-06 to .308 because the .308 is more accurate."
"Snipers use a .308, not a .30-06, that should tell you something."
"The .30-06 is old, out of date, an antique - you can't win matches with it."

I love hearing statements like those, it lets me know that whoever is uttering them is going to be easy pickings in a match because he underestimates the competition and won't be working as hard as he should...

The Rifleman's Journal - Accuracy Secrets of the .30-06 - Part 1
Or, if you want to cut to the chase-- .308 vs 30.06

[Grizz]

Panzercat,

That second article was a good read, I learned loads.

So, all things being equal, would a .300 WM outperform the 30-06 for the same reason the 30-06 outperforms the .308, the extra velocity?

[BigSky56]

Each cartridge we have has its limits to the range and effectiveness of the bullet you send out, being that most of us hunt and not to many of us are whacking elk at 600 yds I believe the 308 would serve most hunters just fine just get the right bullet for the job at hand. When I hear guys talk about needing super mag cartridges it brings to memory my reading of such experienced hunters as WDM Bell who used a 6.5x54, 275 rigby, 303 & 318 WR for pachyderms up close and settled on the 275 because of ammo reliability, after he retired and moved to Scotland he hunted red stag with a savage 22 HP and 220 swift before he passed he said if he was to go back to africa he would use a win 70 in 308 with a homogenous bullet and peep sight for the tough stuff and he has said that a soft point bullet never fouled his rifle bores on anything he shot in africa. Bell was a excellent shot, improve your skills with practice. danny

[Old Savage]

My experience has been that the 30-06s I have had have been better than the 308s in accuracy with both factory and a couple of thousand handloads. The handling difference has been negligible. The 308s have gone except for the 88 and the 30-06s have stayed.

[Panzercat]

Panzercat,

That second article was a good read, I learned loads.

So, all things being equal, would a .300 WM outperform the 30-06 for the same reason the 30-06 outperforms the .308, the extra velocity?

Not simply velocity. Bullet weights help too in certain circumstances. 30.06 can simply obtain more of both than a .308 can at its top end. But again, unless you're playing at +1k yards, it's a big 'meh'.

Bringing 300wm into the equation, less flight time is desirable for a number of reasons, but keep in mind the less desirable attributes that most of these magnum family cartridges share-- Availability, retail ammo cost, recoil, barrel life, reload costs. Most probably won't affect a seasonal hunter, but they will affect anybody who shoots with vigor. Aside from inferior bullet selection and raw costs, most people don't consider the fact that these laser beam bullets burn barrels. 30.06 (and 308 by extension) are very friendly calibers in those respects and give up little for it.

That said, here's a Mossberg MVP Predator in .308. It's on my shortlist and regularly does sub MOA according to a number of non establishment reviews. And takes standard M1A mags. Its smaller 5.56 cousin takes AR mags. And guess for how much?



Haus of Guns has pretty good, no BS reviews.

[Griff]

I'm no help to you... I'm a big .30-06 fan... "I don't see a big enough difference to get another caliber" ...sez the guy with 29 .30-30s...

[mikld]

Thanks fellers. Well, I don't mind adding another die set to my collection and I've got suitable powder and for my shooting/hunting (mebbe blacktail deer and if I am really lucky I would draw an Elk tag and prolly be shooting at under 250 yds) it's a toss up, so I guess which ever caliber presents itself first is the one I'll choose.

[Rusty]

I don't know how it is where y'all live but I have to agree with a LGS owner I was talking to a while back when he said that 90% of Fla. hunters are overgunned. I have a .308 and wonder sometimes why I even have that.

[mikld]

Yep, a friend of mine got an Elk with a .270, and that's what she hopes to fill this years tag with...

[7.62 Precision]

Military went to the .308 as simply a shortened '06 as powder technologies became better and they could get the same velocity with the same projectile. The military's reasoning was all about logistics, of course. .308s take less space and weighs less than .30-06s. They also require less brass, smaller ammo cans, smaller magazines, etc., which all save money and increase shipping efficiency.

The .308 has twice the accuracy potential in the cartridge itself since the case is smaller, and the modern powders fill it better.
In a cartridge case, the velocities can vary if the powder is piled back against the primer, or forward against the bullet, or distributed evenly through the case. A case that is filled closer to capacity will be more accurate than one that is not.

This sounds like a pretty impressive case for using the .308 until you realize that there are so many factors related to the rifle, shooter, or environment that affect the practical accuracy so much more. Still, if I was going for long-range shooting, I would be looking at the short cartridge.

The .308 goes in a more compact action. This means a shorter, lighter, faster operating rifle. Size and weight of the cartage itself is of little concern to us, since we are not moving millions of rounds of the stuff.

There is little you can't do with a .308, except shoot the very heavy bullets as well as a .30-06, and to me, this is the reason someone might choose a .30-06 over a .308 (that, and everyone needs a Garand). I would feel much better hunting bear with a 220 gr. '06 than a 180 gr. .308.

[Grizz]

I would feel much better hunting bear with a 220 gr. '06 than a 180 gr. .308.

Me too. But it doesn't stop there, and I'm up to the 525gr throw weights following that trend.

Howsoever, do you think that having 30 thirty cal bullets on tap somewhat mitigates the weight difference between the 308 and 30-06?

[Paladin]

7.62 got it correct and I have an -06 but only because of military matches. That said you can shoot 308 in a 30-06 with no loss of accuracy. At Camp Perry one year the Navy Rifle Team was shooting M-1 Grands with a small removable sleeve to allow them to use 7.62x51 ammo like us M-14 shooters and they were holding their own.

http://www.cdvs.us/308-Navy-sleeve-P222.aspx

[Carlsen Highway]

In any reloading I have done for rifles in either chambering, the .30/06 has come out on top by 200 fps, regardless of what the loading books say, and that is with 125-150 grain bullets as well as heavy ones.
I think there is a too much talk about how you cant tell the difference between them, or they are interchangable, because I think the .30/06 beats the .308 hands down, and I havnt even mentioned 220 grain bullets yet.
I have some .308 dies left over and no rifles for that anymore, but I have two .30/06's. There was no deliberate policy decision, but that's whats happened over the years.
As far as accuracy goes, they have both been very easy to load for and find excellent hunting accuracy loads. I have not used either in any target shooting competition.

But where I come from there are probably ten .308's in the hands of hunters to every .30/06. It is very popular here, as well as the 7mm08, which on deer does an identical job as the .308 with a little less recoil.