200grains cast bullets in .30WCF

[Pistol Mike]

Hi everybody!

Is there anyone here that has loaded 200 grains castbullets in the .30WCF!?

I'm having trouble finding any loading data for these Heavy for caliber bullets.
Also would like to find a good load for the Sierra 200gr Matchking bullet.

30 WCF med tunga & långa kulor.jpg

So far i have tried 27-29gr of Accurate 2520 under the Lee DC C309-200-R bullet, seems as if there is not enough pressure thou.
velocity is only 1655fps and cases don't seal gases properly... Accurate lists 28,5gr as max under Lymans 190 lead bullet.

What do you Think?


Best regards, Mike

[Thunder50]

I use Leverevolution powder under my 190gr cast.

[Pistol Mike]

Forgot to mention that the gun is a TC Contender (pistol) with a 14” barrel.

I use Leverevolution powder under my 190gr cast.

Leverrevolution is quite slow burning? anyway i don't have it on hand, only have Accurate, Vithavouri and Norma powder.


Best regards,
Mike

[Sixgun]

A couple of years ago I experimented with the Lyman 215 gr. gas check using 21 grains of 5744 for 1725 at 85 degrees. Going from memory here but I do remember having to flatten up the noses in order to keep within MOL.

My good friend Jack Kort (W30WCF) will be along as he is expert with the big cast bullets in the 30-30. I believe he stuffs in all of the 4350 he can get in a case. I do know he regularly smacks the buffalo at 1000 yards at the Ridgway Gun Club with his deluxe 1894.-----6

[Pistol Mike]

A couple of years ago I experimented with the Lyman 215 gr. gas check using 21 grains of 5744 for 1725 at 85 degrees.

I'm almost out of 5744, but I Think it might be enogh for some test loads.


Best regards, Mike

[vancelw]

Here's what's in the AA#2 manual for .30-30 190 gr. No 200 gr data in the book.

30-30 190 gr lead AA.jpg

I know for a fact, that if you contact them, they will help you with load data.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/contact-us/

[AJMD429]

Ammoguide.com shows 9 loads for 190-220 grain bullets, but the 200 and 220 are jacketed. Winchester 748 powder gives 2232 fps from a 24" barrel with jacketed bullets, so would likely be a bit faster with cast ones.

Ammoguide.com is part factory load data, and part 'user' data, but I've found the data reliable and helpful. $19 or so required for a year's access, so it's very reasonable.

[w30wcf]

Pistol Mike,
Sorry I didn't see this sooner. As Sixgun indicated, with 200+ gr. bullets, I have used a capacity load of 4350 and also 35 grs. of H414 which is a ball powder that has a similar burning rate to 4350. I use the recipies in lever guns and they shoot very well.

"Ammoguide.com shows 9 loads for 190-220 grain bullets, but the 200 and 220 are jacketed. Winchester 748 powder gives 2232 fps from a 24" barrel with jacketed bullets, so would likely be a bit faster with cast ones."
That would exceed SAMMI MAP for the .30-30!

w30wcf

[Rusty]

Jack, I've heard of old timers years years ago that would use pulled 190 grain bullets from the .30-40 Krag to load in a .30 WCF. They claimed better accuracy. Do you think the heavier bullets shoot much better?

[Pistol Mike]

Pistol Mike,
Sorry I didn't see this sooner. As Sixgun indicated, with 200+ gr. bullets, I have used a capacity load of 4350 and also 35 grs. of H414 which is a ball powder that has a similar burning rate to 4350. I use the recipies in lever guns and they shoot very well.

Thanks and no worries!

Isn't 4350 and H414 quite slow powders for .30WCF!? thought that Accurate 2520 was pretty slow but these powders are even slower.
Haven't gotten around to it yet but i'll try some round more with the 2520 and with a firm crimp on the bullets to see what happens.
So far it doesn't seems to be enough working pressure for the 2520 powder to burn cleanly. Thought that i'll try the 5744 powder also.

I'll post my "results" latter when i have tested some more.


Regards, Mike

[w30wcf]

Jack, I've heard of old timers years years ago that would use pulled 190 grain bullets from the .30-40 Krag to load in a .30 WCF. They claimed better accuracy. Do you think the heavier bullets shoot much better?

Rusty,
At longer distances (over 200 yards) the heavier cast bullets do shoot more accurately mainly due to their higher ballistic coefficients.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Pistol Mike,
Sorry I didn't see this sooner. As Sixgun indicated, with 200+ gr. bullets, I have used a capacity load of 4350 and also 35 grs. of H414 which is a ball powder that has a similar burning rate to 4350. I use the recipies in lever guns and they shoot very well.

Thanks and no worries!
Isn't 4350 and H414 quite slow powders for .30WCF!? thought that Accurate 2520 was pretty slow but these powders are even slower.
Haven't gotten around to it yet but i'll try some round more with the 2520 and with a firm crimp on the bullets to see what happens.
So far it doesn't seems to be enough working pressure for the 2520 powder to burn cleanly. Thought that i'll try the 5744 powder also.

I'll post my "results" latter when i have tested some more.
Regards, Mike

Mike,
Interestingly, in a 1990's Hodgdon Reloading manual, H414 produced the highest velocity among the other powders tested with 170 gr. bullets. They used a capacity load and the pressure was almost 10% below SAMMI maximum.

I first learned of the use of slower powders in the .30-30 with heavy bullets back in the early 1980's in an article entitled "Heavy Bullets Enhance .30-30 Brush Guns" by Frank Marshall Jr. He used W760 (same powder as H414) and 4350 under heavy cast bullets, one of which was the 220 gr. 311284.

I have even used a capacity loading of even slower burning H4831SC under the 311284 just to see how it would perform and it shot well with velocities of 1,950 fps (26" barrel). Velocities with H414 & 4350 run around 2,050 f.p.s. and approach 2,100 f.p.s.with 200 gr. cast bullets. Tests in a ballistic lab indicate the pressure runs 5% less than SAMMI MAP.

w30wcf

[Grizz]

probably not relevant but ... 300 whisper and 300 aac blackout shoot those 200+ gr bullets as subsonics. might be interesting to look at those loads. they are using fast powders and short fast twist barrels.

I think they get the M80 147gr bullet to the 2000fps range, or thereabouts.

[Pistol Mike]

probably not relevant but ... 300 whisper and 300 aac blackout shoot those 200+ gr bullets as subsonics. might be interesting to look at those loads. they are using fast powders and short fast twist barrels.

The problem with this is that the .300 Whisper/Blackout have only about half the case capacity of the .30 WCF.

w30wcf:
You don't have any problem getting pressure up with these slow powders (the heavier bullets of course helps to increase pressure).
So far i would say thats my problem with my 2520 loads, sooty cases, low velocity and high ES = Not enough pressure for the powder to burn properly(?).
Have loaded up some more rounds tonight with a bit more powder, I'll see if i can get to the range tommorow.


Regards, Mike

[Pistol Mike]

It didn't go much better today...

Träffbild.jpg

Ten-shot group at 25m was 81mm!!! (3,18" at 27,3yds)

Sotiga hylsor.jpg

Cases got quite sooty, low pressure or what do you think?

The load was 30,0grs Accurate 2520, c.o.l. 2,65" under Lee's C309-200-R cast bullet (204grs) .
Velocity was 1687fps, ES 204fps(!!), SD 65,8fps. Out of my 14" Contender barrel (quite big muzzle blast/flame).
Anyway I don't Think it will get any better with this powder, so i'll try to work up some loads with 5744 instead.


Regards, Mike

[w30wcf]

Mike,
Wow, that's quite a bit of variance!

Here's a 5 shot string in my Teddy Roosevelt Commemorative rifle (26")
205 gr. Cast / 35 / H414 / WLR
2134 / 2130 / 2148 / 2133 /2125

Sounds like 5744 would be the way to go in your shorter 14" barrel.

Is the bore ride portion of bullet a snug fit in the muzzle?

Don't know why the case necks are so sooty(?)
How are they with other loadings?

w30wcf

[vancelw]

What about doing a chamber casting to make sure someone hasn't reamed that out into something else? The picture looks okay, but are the bullets hitting pointy end first? What about if you shoot at 50?

[Pistol Mike]

Is the bore ride portion of bullet a snug fit in the muzzle?

Yes, the bore riding part of the bullets is "a snug fit" in the barrel.

What about doing a chamber casting to make sure someone hasn't reamed that out into something else?
The picture looks okay, but are the bullets hitting pointy end first? What about if you shoot at 50?

Don't know why the case necks are so sooty(?)
How are they with other loadings?

I would say that there's not enough pressure peak/bump to expand the cases and seal the chamber from gases going backwards.
The barrel is factory original (although the chamber is a bit roomy) and it was new when i bought it. And the cases looks normal with my other loads,.
And no don't have any stability problems with the bullets. Nose first at 50m to, but groups opened up a bit more (5 shots on 4-5").

Loaded up some rounds with 5744, we'll see if i get any time off in the weekend to test them.


Regards, Mike

[mark]

Evening all,

I have cast the Lee 200gn bullets, WWs plus gas check for use in my 30-06. They work well.

As far as the 30-30 is concerned, I have only made up two "dummy" rounds, one crimped at the usual point on the bullet the other seated for an OAL of 2.55", no crimp.

I have plenty of H4350 or AR2209 as it is known as down here.

I don't want to single load, I want the cartridges to feed from the magazine of my 336C, microgroove barrel, 1600fps max is all I need.

I have Lee dies plus the FCD. I measured the "bore rider" diameter of one of my cast bullets, 0.300".

I also don't want to shorten the 200gn bullets so that they feed. I have plenty of "Ranch Dog" 170gns available.

Has anyone successfully used these Lee 200gn bullets in a 336 so that they feed from the magazine?.

If so, how did you crimp the bullets?.

Thanks in advance, Mark

[w30wcf]

Evening Mark,
I have not used the 200 gr Lee deep seated to cycle through a levergun but I have deep seated 3 other 200+ gr. bullets.... Lyman 311644 (202 in W.W.), Old Wsst 198 (205 in W.W), Lyman 311284 (220 gr. in W.W).

The base of the bullets are supported by a capacity load of 4350 or H414 so can't be pushed deeper into the case so we just need to keep the bullet from moving forward when the gun is in recoil. The spring pressure in the magazine will help insure that.

For a bit of extra insurance I have used the standard .30-30 crimp die and even tried running the loaded cartridge back into the sizing die to reduce that portion of the neck forward of the front driving band. Both methods worked well. Another option is to use The Lee Factory Crimp die which can actually press a crimp groove into the nose of the bullet.

w30wcf

[mark]

Thanks John

Plenty of good advice. I'll make up several more "dummy" rounds to see how the crimping methods you suggest work with the Lee bullets.

As the bullet will be seated below the neck and 1600fps is all I want, how much H4350 do you suggest I start with.

I've just come in from the garden, it's hot and humid down this way with a thunderstorm approaching.

You and your family have a safe and wonderful Christmas.

All the best, Mark

[Pistol Mike]

it's hot and humid down this way with a thunderstorm approaching.

Here in Sweden it's cold and humid... +2°C (36°F) very windy and snow/rain.

Merry Christmas to you all to.

Regards, Mike

[w30wcf]

Mark,
I have no experience using 4350 in the .30-30 except in capacity loads but if your goal is to try using it in 1,600 f.p.s. loads with a 200 gr bullet, then perhaps if 35 grs = 2,000 f.p.s. then (1600/2000 x 35 grs.) = 28 grs. That should put you close anyway. You may encounter some partially burned powder due to the lower chamber pressure, then again, maybe not.

Thank you and best wishes to you and your family for a wonderful Christmas and a happy, healthy and prosperous 2015.

Mike, the same to you and your family.

w30wcf

[Nath]

4350 in 30wcf is sweet. Lights up well too. Not so keen on 414!

In that 14" tube I would stick with 322!



N.

[w30wcf]

Mark,
I have no experience using 4350 in the .30-30 except in capacity loads but if your goal is to try using it in 1,600 f.p.s. loads with a 200 gr bullet, then perhaps if 35 grs = 2,000 f.p.s. then (1600/2000 x 35 grs.) = 28 grs. That should put you close anyway. You may encounter some partially burned powder due to the lower chamber pressure, then again, maybe not.
w30wcf

Actually, as we know, as the powder charge increases, the increase per grain becomes less. Therefore, perhaps 26 grs. of 4350 would give closer to 1,600 f.p.s.

What length barrel does your rifle have?

w30wcf

[mark]

John, the barrel is a 20" long Micro-groove.

I just made up the third dummy round, 2.550" with a FCD.

The bullet feels quit secure in the neck of the case.

Cheers Mark

[Pistol Mike]

Had some time to go to the range today, lousy weather but i got some loads tested.

Träffbild.jpg

21,0grs of Accurate 5744 gave this Group at 25m.

Think the 5744 is a more suitable powder for the 14" short barrel on my contender than 2520.
With ten shots i got... MV = 1688fps, ES = 4,0% (or 67fps), SD = 22,6 sadly the shot could not shot a better group than 3.65".
Have to blame the weather... it was too dark and cold, +3°C rain and snow and a bit windy!

Anyway i Think i'll stick to this load and do some futher testing/shooting, just have to stock up on 5744 powder.


I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!


Regards, Mike

[mark]

Morning all

Range results for 50yds, rifle a 336C, 30-30, 20" Microgroove barrel.

200gn Lee, GCs, WWs, Alox lube, OAL 2.55", roll crimp+FCD, fed OK from the magazine of my 336C
AR2209 aka H4350, Remington LRP, PMC cases
Loaded batches of three at, 26, 28, 30 and 32grains.

All shot well, some better then others, about 1.25", some touching, no dramas at all.

The necks at 26gns were a little smokey, not excessive, the others as normal.

The recoil of the 30, 32grn loads noticeable off the bench.

If I was to do it again I would load batches of five at 30, 31 and 32grains.

Cheers Mark

[w30wcf]

Mark,
Thank you for the update. Nice!
As Frank Marshall use to say, those heavy hitters won't stop for lunch........

w30wcf