rjjohns post on mob violence drew a lot of responses

[wm]

rjjohns post on mob violence drew a lot of responses & I am wondering if anyone changed their arrangements because of what they read?

I reconsidered mine (current carry piece is a Charter arms 44 special, stowed in the car is a S&W model 10 & a Marlin 336 20" 30 WCF) but chose to continue with what I have because I feel I shoot them well and the other stuff (hi cap Glock/XD/Beretta/S&W etc & a M4 like AR) I don't own. Maybe it will influence me to buy down the line a little bit.

Anyway.......anyone else have their thoughts on the matter evolve based on recent events and the thoughts shared earlier?

[cshold]

http://offgridsurvival.com/violentflashmobs/

http://www.wikihow.com/Survive-a-Riot

[BrentD]

I'm still carrying the same pocket knife I've carried everyday for years.

[cshold]

And another good read on the subject.

http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net ... f-defense/

[Mescalero]

No.

[AJMD429]

Came across some high-capacity magazines for my Para Ordnance and got a pair - instead of holding a paltry 14 rounds, they hold 20. . .

[BrentD]

Have you ever heard of a legit need by a person with a CCW for more than 6-7 rounds, never-mind 40 in two, 20-round mags?

That is a hell of a lot of ammo to lug and keep concealed - for what reasonable expectation of need?

[mikld]

During one of the L.A. riots I kept an extra gun in my car. I had my usual 2" .38, 5 shot with 2 speed loaders in my briefcase and my 629 plus 1 speed loader in my car. Mebbe not up to others quantity of ammo, but I felt well armed and if it came to a confrontation I would be surely be out numbered but my armament would be enough to get me away from the situation (feral rioters/looters rarely work in groups of less than 10). I had to drive by one of the "hot" areas to and from work and was on full alert all the time. I wasn't going to be another Reginald Denny!

[Streetstar]

Have you ever heard of a legit need by a person with a CCW for more than 6-7 rounds, never-mind 40 in two, 20-round mags?

That is a hell of a lot of ammo to lug and keep concealed - for what reasonable expectation of need?

multiple assailants, plus decreased marksmanship due to being in the moment could create a lot of flyers --- again, its a low percentage need , but even if its 1/10th of 1 percent, you sure wouldnt want to be on the losing end of that percentage point

That said, i suppose i also roll the dice a little also with my 5 and 6 shot revolvers and little 380's that typically hold 6+1

[cshold]

Have you ever heard of a legit need by a person with a CCW for more than 6-7 rounds, never-mind 40 in two, 20-round mags?

That is a hell of a lot of ammo to lug and keep concealed - for what reasonable expectation of need?

No.

[MrMurphy]

I know of an offduty cop walking his dog who was jumped by three guys with a five shot .38 at close range. Dog was a lapdog i.e noisemaker. First guy got shot, second guy got shot and he ran out of rounds (he missed a few, even at near contact distance) and went hands on with the third guy (and the other two who despite being shot, were still in play).

Got his pocketknife out and did enough damage they all decided to be elsewhere in a hurry.

Now he carries a Glock 26 with two reloads..which is not a significantly larger package. Instead of 5+5 (which is what he had at the time) he has 12+15+15 (Glock 19 magazines).

My "not carrying" i.e offduty gun is a Shield with 3 mags, which gives me 23 rounds. If I expect any potential action, full size Glock (duty gun) and a long gun and the Shield come along, with reloads.

This really isn't 'that' big of a deal, depending on the long gun (bag in vehicle). It's simply a matter of what you're willing to put up with to remain alive and standing.

[hkfrost]

I have NO options, as I live in Nieuw Jersey, other than moving .

[AJMD429]

I know of an offduty cop walking his dog who was jumped by three guys with a five shot .38 at close range. Dog was a lapdog i.e noisemaker. First guy got shot, second guy got shot and he ran out of rounds (he missed a few, even at near contact distance) and went hands on with the third guy (and the other two who despite being shot, were still in play).

Got his pocketknife out and did enough damage they all decided to be elsewhere in a hurry.

Now he carries a Glock 26 with two reloads..which is not a significantly larger package. Instead of 5+5 (which is what he had at the time) he has 12+15+15 (Glock 19 magazines).

My "not carrying" i.e offduty gun is a Shield with 3 mags, which gives me 23 rounds. If I expect any potential action, full size Glock (duty gun) and a long gun and the Shield come along, with reloads.

This really isn't 'that' big of a deal, depending on the long gun (bag in vehicle). It's simply a matter of what you're willing to put up with to remain alive and standing.

As a high-school 'kid' throwing off poachers and trespassers from the family farm, I can tell you that for SURE, being way 'over-gunned' was better than being a bit above the opposition. If you appear to be in their 'league', you are asking for an actual firefight, but if you are able to act crazy (easy for me) and have obvious weaponry advantage, the 'issue' often ends without any violence at all.

Just sayin'...

• - bring a knife to a gunfight, and you will lose
  - bring a similar gun to a gunfight, and you will fight, and maybe get injured, or die
  - bring a vastly 'superior' gun to a gunfight, and . . . there may not even be a gunfight...

[rjohns94]

Yes

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Have you ever heard of a legit need by a person with a CCW for more than 6-7 rounds, never-mind 40 in two, 20-round mags?

That is a hell of a lot of ammo to lug and keep concealed - for what reasonable expectation of need?

Chupacabra.

[BrentD]

Have you ever heard of a legit need by a person with a CCW for more than 6-7 rounds, never-mind 40 in two, 20-round mags?

That is a hell of a lot of ammo to lug and keep concealed - for what reasonable expectation of need?

Chupacabra.

You have a good internet handle

[jdad]

Brent, you forget the paranoia that runs rampant, in some here. I'm sure there's some members here that pack a holstered pistol between their butt cheeks when in the shower too.

Actually, this forum ain't that bad.....AR15.com, oh boy.

[1894c]

I know of an offduty cop walking his dog who was jumped by three guys with a five shot .38 at close range. Dog was a lapdog i.e noisemaker. First guy got shot, second guy got shot and he ran out of rounds (he missed a few, even at near contact distance) and went hands on with the third guy (and the other two who despite being shot, were still in play).

Got his pocketknife out and did enough damage they all decided to be elsewhere in a hurry.

Now he carries a Glock 26 with two reloads..which is not a significantly larger package. Instead of 5+5 (which is what he had at the time) he has 12+15+15 (Glock 19 magazines).

My "not carrying" i.e offduty gun is a Shield with 3 mags, which gives me 23 rounds. If I expect any potential action, full size Glock (duty gun) and a long gun and the Shield come along, with reloads.

This really isn't 'that' big of a deal, depending on the long gun (bag in vehicle). It's simply a matter of what you're willing to put up with to remain alive and standing.

This is why I carry a Glock 26 with a G-19 mag as my reload...the days of the 5-shot snub are (at least for me) over...we see way to many single individuals being attacked by multiple assailants... Code-4 ... :)

[Blaine]

Brent, you forget the paranoia that runs rampant, in some here. I'm sure there's some members here that pack a holstered pistol between their butt cheeks when in the shower too.

Actually, this forum ain't that bad.....AR15.com, oh boy.

You live in a fairly calm portion of the world..... Everyone has the right to have whatever they feel is necessary for SD. I'm missing the buttcheek option , but I can reach out to a loaded handgun in the four main places I'm at in my home....Paranoid? NoSir, prepared

[Grizz]

Hi wm

yes. I added significant magazine capacity. I have long been of the opinion that it would be unhealthy to run out of ammo first. I acted to improve my spot on the bell curve.

some folks are certain that six or seven rounds is all that anyone should reasonably expect to need in any self-defense scenario.

I have to guess that their fire extinguisher is the smallest one made and they only have one. that's what their logic tree looks like to me.

I'd also have to guess that they put two gallons of gas into their car at a time. because, you know, what reasonable expectation would anyone have of getting more than two gallons away from a gas station?

I suppose that they also insure their home for the mortgage value only, after all, what reasonable expectation would a person have that they need more insurance than that?

Of course facing down a rioting mob hell bent on destruction can easily be dissuaded by a five shot wheel gun, because, who could have a legit expectation that a mob of brutal thugs would be willing to absorb more resistance than that?

not to forget that isis cells exist in America, invited and enabled by zero-strategy-in-chief. waiting to act up. the easiest soft target is the local mall filled with holiday shoppers, and their modus operandi is already recent history in some african country. naturally no one could posit a legit need for more than five or six shots in that scenario.

of course someone who can be certain than he would never need more than x shots doesn't need a gun at all, because anyone who can predict the future that accurately can avoid all violent confrontations with their clairvoyance

what fun

Grizz

[jdad]

You live in a fairly calm portion of the world..... Everyone has the right to have whatever they feel is necessary for SD. I'm missing the buttcheek option , but I can reach out to a loaded handgun in the four main places I'm at in my home....Paranoid? NoSir, prepared

I'm 15 miles south, of downtown Portland. Ok, I guess for the time being it's fairly calm. I definitely have no problem, with whatever or however you want to protect yourself, but I am making an observation about some. Since you don't have the butt cheek holster you don't qualify as paranoid.

[BrentD]

Hi wm

yes. I added significant magazine capacity. I have long been of the opinion that it would be unhealthy to run out of ammo first. I acted to improve my spot on the bell curve.

some folks are certain that six or seven rounds is all that anyone should reasonably expect to need in any self-defense scenario.

I have to guess that their fire extinguisher is the smallest one made and they only have one. that's what their logic tree looks like to me.

I'd also have to guess that they put two gallons of gas into their car at a time. because, you know, what reasonable expectation would anyone have of getting more than two gallons away from a gas station?

I suppose that they also insure their home for the mortgage value only, after all, what reasonable expectation would a person have that they need more insurance than that?

Of course facing down a rioting mob hell bent on destruction can easily be dissuaded by a five shot wheel gun, because, who could have a legit expectation that a mob of brutal thugs would be willing to absorb more resistance than that?

not to forget that isis cells exist in America, invited and enabled by zero-strategy-in-chief. waiting to act up. the easiest soft target is the local mall filled with holiday shoppers, and their modus operandi is already recent history in some african country. naturally no one could posit a legit need for more than five or six shots in that scenario.

of course someone who can be certain than he would never need more than x shots doesn't need a gun at all, because anyone who can predict the future that accurately can avoid all violent confrontations with their clairvoyance

what fun

Grizz

Actually, you pretty much missed the point of my question, if that is what you are responding to.

Personally I think it would do more for my safety to wear a hardhat in the woods while squirrel hunting than carrying multiple, extended capacity magazines for my CCW.

And, no, I'm not going to camo paint my hardhat for squirrel hunting.

It would be interesting to tabulate how many CCW carriers in this state that own motorcycles, don't wear helmets.

[Grizz]

Hi wm

yes. I added significant magazine capacity. I have long been of the opinion that it would be unhealthy to run out of ammo first. I acted to improve my spot on the bell curve.

some folks are certain that six or seven rounds is all that anyone should reasonably expect to need in any self-defense scenario.

I have to guess that their fire extinguisher is the smallest one made and they only have one. that's what their logic tree looks like to me.

I'd also have to guess that they put two gallons of gas into their car at a time. because, you know, what reasonable expectation would anyone have of getting more than two gallons away from a gas station?

I suppose that they also insure their home for the mortgage value only, after all, what reasonable expectation would a person have that they need more insurance than that?

Of course facing down a rioting mob hell bent on destruction can easily be dissuaded by a five shot wheel gun, because, who could have a legit expectation that a mob of brutal thugs would be willing to absorb more resistance than that?

not to forget that isis cells exist in America, invited and enabled by zero-strategy-in-chief. waiting to act up. the easiest soft target is the local mall filled with holiday shoppers, and their modus operandi is already recent history in some african country. naturally no one could posit a legit need for more than five or six shots in that scenario.

of course someone who can be certain than he would never need more than x shots doesn't need a gun at all, because anyone who can predict the future that accurately can avoid all violent confrontations with their clairvoyance

what fun

Grizz

Actually, you pretty much missed the point of my question, if that is what you are responding to.

Personally I think it would do more for my safety to wear a hardhat in the woods while squirrel hunting than carrying multiple, extended capacity magazines for my CCW.

And, no, I'm not going to camo paint my hardhat for squirrel hunting.

It would be interesting to tabulate how many CCW carriers in this state that own motorcycles, don't wear helmets.

actually you just owned the point I was making. it's been fun.

[BrentD]

actually you just owned the point I was making. it's been fun.

Whatever you say. Obviously you are on a higher plane. don't stub your toe.

[Malamute]

None of us know if or when an incident that involves a self defense gun will occur, we don't have ultimate control of that. We also don't have ultimate control of who we have that incident with. Police officers are more likely to get in a shooting incident, but as non-law enforcement, we could be involved with any of the same people. No thugs or crooks have decreed that they will only have troubles with police that I have heard of so far. Thugs generally get in trouble with the police because they have committed some crime already, often against some ordinary citizen. The point I'm making is, we could run into any of the same people police do, and it may require the same level of force to stop them.

Police officer Peter Soulis had an incident with a man, when it was over, he had shot the man 22 times with a 40 cal Glock with Ranger SXT loads, 17 of which were center of mass hits. The man was alive for 4 minutes after the last shot was fired. Officer Soulis had been hit several times also.

http://m.lawofficer.com/article/trainin ... oulis-inci

Officer Timothy Gramins was involved in an incident. He shot the man 14 times with a 45, 6 of which should have been fatal. He had fired 33 rounds in the incident, he had 4 left when it was over. The shooting was between and around vehicles, with both eventually trying to keep behind cover and keep moving. It was a head shot that ended it, the shot was made under a vehicle. He had an AR-15 in the trunk, where it was unavailable when things started happening.

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/ ... n-the-job/

No, neither of these were "normal", but then, any shootings cant really be considered "normal". Each can choose to what level they want to be prepared for, but within what would seem practical and comfortable to wear/carry/keep in their vehicle, I sure wont criticize or call names (like paranoid) to those that choose to be a "bit more" prepared. Real life doesn't fit our preconceived notions about what will happen. Personally, running out of ammo in a really bad moment is way down the list of things I ever want to deal with. If someone chooses to only carry X amount and figure they'll just give up when that's gone because more wouldn't have helped, by all means carry on with that line of thinking. Don't be surprised if others don't feel the same way.

I'm glad some people can tell ahead of time how things will work in a shooting incident. I'm not blessed with such foresight. If I had that ability, I'd probably stay home that day, or eat lunch somewhere else.

[gcs]

So... for all of you prepared for the apocalypse, what do you recommend for us poor shmucks that live in one of the occupied liberal States that will gladly send you to jail for defending yourself, with anything... and don't say move, that's a smart alec copout.

[Blaine]

So... for all of you prepared for the apocalypse, what do you recommend for us poor shmucks that live in one of the occupied liberal States that will gladly send you to jail for defending yourself, with anything... and don't say move, that's a smart alec copout.

This begs a couple questions. Where do you live? Are permits impossible to get? If I'm around people, I use my cane whether or not I really need it. Better than nothing if you practice a bit.

[Mescalero]

gcs,
If you are limited to just those two options, then the suggestion to move is not a copout.

[Mescalero]

I think he suggested any defense would result in negative consequences.
But I do have a Cold Steel city stick.

[Blaine]

I think he suggested any defense would result in negative consequences.
But I do have a Cold Steel city stick.

I know I'm sort of grouchy this morning, but I've never heard of a place where necessary self defense with a non-weapon is illegal. Just wondering if a doc's note is necessary to carry a cane

[gcs]

OK a little clarification. Yes, legitimate SD is legal everywhere, even "here", problem is You can't get a carry permit which would enable an effective SD possible, you can get a pistol permit that allows possession in the home, for hunting, where legal, and "To and from the range" and, that pistol better be locked up, unloaded, and ammo in a second "not readily available" location. The apparent "loopholes" in this situation have been tried and "addressed"

So in any SD situation away from home your kinda screwed, unless you ignore the law and take your chances, and trust me, that ain't looked at kindly.

I envy you guys that don't have to live with such restrictions, which is what made me a little snarky, but the end result is, comparing revolvers, semi autos, amount of ammo carried and possible scenarios is a moot point for many of us who have been overwhelmed and out voted by the sheep, and no, moving is not an option, even though our genius Gov. requested we do just that.

So, carry on, sorry to interrupt, and feel free to pity us.

[Gallo Pazzesco]

rjjohns post on mob violence drew a lot of responses & I am wondering if anyone changed their arrangements because of what they read?

I reconsidered mine (current carry piece is a Charter arms 44 special, stowed in the car is a S&W model 10 & a Marlin 336 20" 30 WCF) but chose to continue with what I have because I feel I shoot them well and the other stuff (hi cap Glock/XD/Beretta/S&W etc & a M4 like AR) I don't own. Maybe it will influence me to buy down the line a little bit.

Anyway.......anyone else have their thoughts on the matter evolve based on recent events and the thoughts shared earlier?

I think if you watch your six, keep your situational awareness intact, refuse to live in the city and only travel to those places during daylight and then choose you route carefully ... to me, at least, that would seem like the best defense against being caught-up in the midst of a violent flash mob.

[Mescalero]

gcs,
That really is a no win situation.

[AJMD429]

OK a little clarification. Yes, legitimate SD is legal everywhere, even "here", problem is You can't get a carry permit which would enable an effective SD possible, you can get a pistol permit that allows possession in the home, for hunting, where legal, and "To and from the range" and, that pistol better be locked up, unloaded, and ammo in a second "not readily available" location.

Do you live in the U.S....????

[MrMurphy]

I spent three years in Europe armed with nothing but a stout cane and a Surefire flashlight offduty, as even knives were seriously prohibited (of the type I wanted to carry.....)

So despite having a belt fed machine gun on duty and enough explosives to remodel a block, off duty, I had nothing.

Keeping your head on a swivel and having an impact weapon and a bright light can do much. If you see someone giving you the eyeball and it's even remotely 'dusk' letting them know you are aware of their interest with a 500 lumen blast of light to the eyes will generally dissuade them.

I nearly laid out a gypsy street merchant who pulled what appeared to be a switchblade (it was a switchblade comb) out at very close range while in Pisa with the cane (shortly thereafter named, by my fellow unit members "The XXX-whupping Stick".... since in the trained hands of someone familiar with both fencing, swordfighting, and police baton use, you can do a lot with a 3' piece of wood. And since this particular cane had a healthy brass point on one end and a good sized 'business end' for the hand, it was in effect, a street legal riot baton.

That cane, and others, traveled with me all over Europe. I do have bad knees (tendonitis) and can limp on command if it requires to keep my stick handy when I have nothing more potent at hand.


The look on that gypsy's face when he very nearly took a potentially lethal hit to the head from that stick (with three other large, ticked off Americans also just back from a deployment coming his way with other makeshift weapons) was, after the fact, quite funny.

He also realized his sales strategy of walking up to a bunch of Americans with short haircuts and flipping out what (intentionally) appears to be a switchblade was a possibly lethal sales option.

[gcs]

Good ol U S of A , Here's some more... Long guns legal in your vehicle, must be unloaded and cased, no ammo immediately available. Semi auto rifles cannot have more than two, or is it three, "evil" features, which include a detachable magazine, (10 round, but you can only load 7 ), a pistol grip, folding stock, flash hider.....etc. Your basic black rifle.
You can have such a long gun if previously owned before the new law, (passed in the middle of the night) only if registered.

Can no longer order any type of ammo by mail, or internet. It goes on, all to make us "safe"

I do have the permit I previously mentioned. Even though I was trained and carried as a Peace Officer, that's all I could get after retiring. (what have you done for us lately?) essentially useless, unless attacked in my home, and then would have to explain why the gun wasn't in lockup. Oh, and if I get a ticket for any violation and not notify the pistol bureau, they have grounds to revoke said permit. I think the friggen Russians have more rights!

Be warned, lots of folks would like to bring you more of the same.

[Catshooter]

gcs, it may appear to be a smart aleck comment "to move", but it is the best option if you take self defense seriously. If it's really important to you. I'm not trying to put you down, not at all.

I retired six years ago and my income got cut by 2/3rds. I had my permit from age 21 in Washington state and made sure that where I retired to had good gun laws.

The vast majority of people don't even own a gun.

The vast majority of the people that do own a gun don't have a permit.

The majority of those who do have a permit only carry now and then.

It all comes down to the ability to face the evil that men can do. It's not the odds. It's not how likely. It's not how 'safe' your neighborhood is supposed to be. Crime can, and does happen anywhere and any time and predicting it, or thinking you can is foolish. There's actually a name for it: whistling past the graveyard.

Very, very few of those who have used a gun for real will ever be caught with just a mouse gun or J frame.

Carry or not, or whatever you want. It's up to you. Your life and your business.


Cat

[rjohns94]

rjjohns post on mob violence drew a lot of responses & I am wondering if anyone changed their arrangements because of what they read?

I reconsidered mine (current carry piece is a Charter arms 44 special, stowed in the car is a S&W model 10 & a Marlin 336 20" 30 WCF) but chose to continue with what I have because I feel I shoot them well and the other stuff (hi cap Glock/XD/Beretta/S&W etc & a M4 like AR) I don't own. Maybe it will influence me to buy down the line a little bit.

Anyway.......anyone else have their thoughts on the matter evolve based on recent events and the thoughts shared earlier?

I think if you watch your six, keep your situational awareness intact, refuse to live in the city and only travel to those places during daylight and then choose you route carefully ... to me, at least, that would seem like the best defense against being caught-up in the midst of a violent flash mob.

That really isn't an option for some. Since November of last year, I have put 100k miles on my truck. I have been in every major city from michigan to Texas, from Maine to Florida and all the states inbetween. I don't know how to avoid bad areas of all those cities, especially if my work takes me to certain areas. I don't linger but I do have to be there for a period of time. I can't choose to not go as it's my work. I'm in those places at all hours of the day, either passing through or stopping over. I try to avoid NJ and NY and a few others but I simply can't. I agree with watching out and situational awareness but I don't even know what might be happening in area that I'm not familiar with. And GPS doesn't know that there is a mob on one street or another. Basically flying blind in strange areas does not go along with the recommendations you see on how to avoid a mob or what to do. In a strange city, trying to get to my vehicle, I would only know the way back by the way I had travelled. Just saying, just not always a possibility to stay out of cities etc.

[Malamute]

A lot of good theories on how to avoid trouble. They may indeed work for some or even most people, though obviously not for all.

Reminds me of the quote "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra.

[samb]

I carry a SKS and 100 rounds. It is very hard to get a concealed carry permit up here, so I make do.

[gamekeeper]

Good ol U S of A , Here's some more... Long guns legal in your vehicle, must be unloaded and cased, no ammo immediately available. Semi auto rifles cannot have more than two, or is it three, "evil" features, which include a detachable magazine, (10 round, but you can only load 7 ), a pistol grip, folding stock, flash hider.....etc. Your basic black rifle.
You can have such a long gun if previously owned before the new law, (passed in the middle of the night) only if registered.

Can no longer order any type of ammo by mail, or internet. It goes on, all to make us "safe"

I do have the permit I previously mentioned. Even though I was trained and carried as a Peace Officer, that's all I could get after retiring. (what have you done for us lately?) essentially useless, unless attacked in my home, and then would have to explain why the gun wasn't in lockup. Oh, and if I get a ticket for any violation and not notify the pistol bureau, they have grounds to revoke said permit. I think the friggen Russians have more rights!

Be warned, lots of folks would like to bring you more of the same.

We have even more restrictions here in the UK and we also have our share of violent crime (apparently weapon laws are ignored by criminals ) it does make visiting big cities interesting especially at night.
Personally I think, because victims of crime over here are typically unarmed, most mobs would require a change of underwear if a victim pulled out anything that went bang and put holes in folks where holes shouldn't be.
If I had the freedom "some" of you guys have, I'd carry whatever was necessary for that particular location, as staying alive is my main concern.

[Chris83716]

So... for all of you prepared for the apocalypse, what do you recommend for us poor shmucks that live in one of the occupied liberal States that will gladly send you to jail for defending yourself, with anything... and don't say move, that's a smart alec copout.

I would recommend you move. Life is a trade off.

Chris

[Mescalero]

It would seem we can not provide a viable alternative for you.

[gcs]

It's all good,

[Panzercat]

Anyway.......anyone else have their thoughts on the matter evolve based on recent events and the thoughts shared earlier?

Not so much based on that thread, but more of an evolution of thought for the same reasons. I love my 1911, but I desire more rounds for whatever situation may arise. It's the main impulse behind my purchase of an XDm.

[jeepnik]

Nope, think that field expedient body warmer used effectively against Russian tanks would still work pretty well against a crowd of unprotected rowdies.

[AJMD429]

Not so much based on that thread, but more of an evolution of thought for the same reasons. I love my 1911, but I desire more rounds for whatever situation may arise. It's the main impulse behind my purchase of an XDm.

That's why I love my Para Ordnance 14 round 1911. Got some 20 round mags that only protrude about 1-1/2", too...

[AJMD429]

This is an article pertinent to this very discussion...

http://bearingarms.com/need-gun/

[MrMurphy]

http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/264 ... arking-lot

This is why 5 rounds isn't enough. 10, even 15 might not be.

[Griff]

Keeping your head on a swivel...

Will put miles ahead of your competition. Like the adage sez: I don't have to outrun the bear... just outrun you!