Copper Or Lead Bullets

[jkbrea]

I don't reload and have been hunting elk for about 20 years. Most of the elk I've taken with a bolt gun have been 7mm RemMag with a 165 grain Nosler Partitions or 30-06 with 180 grain NP. The rest were with a 45-70. I never paid much attention to copper ammunition. In California, some areas require copper only or ask for voluntary compliance. Some other states, such as Wyoming have asked hunters to use copper but don't require it. The reason being that birds/critters eat gut piles or lost game containing lead fragments. I know that when slicing up meat for jerky, I have found some lead particles and even found a 45-70 in an elk I shot with a 30-06. Found a few pieces eating burgers also but I think it was the jacketing. I read where some of these particles end up out to 18" from the wound entry. So I suppose its possible to ingest small amounts without knowing. I have no idea how those small amounts affect someone, if at all, and never really worried about it. It did get me thinking though.

Anyways, my real question is about the copper rounds such as Barne's TTSX. From what I understand, the copper bullets retain close to 100% of their weight on game and lead bullets much less. If I was using a 180 grain Nos Part, would it make sense to go to, lets say, 150 grain bullet in a Barne's TTSX and get the same results since it retains almost all it's weight?.

I don't know if I would switch, but I haven't really heard anything bad about the copper rounds. On the Cabelas site, they are actually cheaper than Federal Vital Shok. For a reloader or someone casting bullets, I suppose lead makes much more sense. I am far from an expert on ammo. I load 'em from the box and shoot 'em.

[Pete44ru]

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I have nil experience with such, since, as AFAIK they're not required here in the NorthEast - but can comment that I have read reports of Barnes QC going to pot since the Remington takeover (like has happened to Marlin).

OTOH, my Son successfully uses Remington soild copper slugs in his 12ga, and also shoots such factory stuff in his .300 Win Mag Encore (Caribou, Moose) w/o issue.


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[Old Savage]

Answer is yes, the 150 would perform like a 180 with of course the advantage of more velocity.

[jkbrea]

Answer is yes, the 150 would perform like a 180 with of course the advantage of more velocity.

Thanks OS. I was told that but at first it didn't make sense until I started reading up on it. I was hoping someone here actually had experience with it on big game. I value the opinions here more than anywhere else.

[3leggedturtle]

Which did you prefer the 7mm or '06? Was there any practical difference between them?

[Old Savage]

We have shot a few deer with them in 243 and 25-06. It appears that the next step down in weight is actually more effective than the next weight up in standard hunting bullets. and they have a target bullet configuration. I hope quality is still up in these calibers. We have seen very good accuracy.

[jkbrea]

Which did you prefer the 7mm or '06? Was there any practical difference between them?

I prefer the 30-06. The 7mmRemMag worked awesome on elk. My longest shot was about 420 yards on a cow elk. It is a hard hitting, flat shooting round. Recoil isn't too bad. That being said, every other elk I've killed has been from 35 yards to about 125 yards. The 30-06 is lighter, has a shorter barrel, which makes a big difference when hunting thicker woods. Ammo is cheaper, recoil much less, which for me is good after having a shoulder replaced. It's a great all around caliber for anything on this continent IMO .....but my first choice is my 45-70 lever .

[vancelw]

I loaded my first GMX Hornady bullets in 2010 for my first ever back bear hunt. I wanted deep penetration and that's what I got.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... ar#p368115

They worked perfectly for what I intended them to work.
When I was through bear hunting, I had 35 rounds left. Over time I have used them on pronghorn, mule deer, and coyotes.

On mule deer, they worked great.
Pronghorn they were marginal.
Coyotes not so good.

The smaller animals don't have enough mass to make the bullets open up. In all fairness, the pronghorn and especially the coyotes tended to be at farther ranges. So less velocity remaining to help them open up. Tended to poke pencil holes through and through the coyotes. They died from their wounds, but not as quickly as I prefer.

Since then, I have heard (but can't confirm) that I should have used 150 gr GMX bullets for the .308 instead of 165 gr. Supposedly the lighter bullets are slightly more malleable than the heavier bullets. I may email Hornady and see if they will confirm or deny.

The copper bullets are longer for weight than lead, so case capacity is diminished and a faster twist might be needed, depending on your caliber and desired velocity.

[Canuck Bob]

I can only share internet experience. Our local lads seem to think highly of the non lead bullets for any game hunted here. A guy sure sees a lot of pictures of classic expanded bullets when searched.

I grew up mocking chemical safety. My Doc is sure I got bone marrow cancer from too many farm, mechanic shop, and oilpatch chemicals. I won't tell you not to worry about ingested lead. It is a question worth serious thought. I do not know anyone I'm aware of that has or had lead poisoning. I know a lot of farmers who died too young from chemicals.

I also continue to use lead and even started casting with lead. However I don't hunt anymore and tin cans are too tough to cook up. I understand the risk and suit up and plan accordingly. The risks are easy to research and an informed decision is sensible. I understand the biggest risk comes from prolonged contact not occasional contact. If lead is going to get me it will most likely come from an unsafe hunter or the air I breathe.

The only issue with the bullets seem to be barrel twist. They are long bullets for the weight and need some spin to stabilize compared to standard twist rates designed for heavy lead core bullets. However it is rarely complained about. Even the 30-30 comes with all copper now!!

Edit: I can see the day if I make a decade or two more when lead bullets are outlawed so we may have no choice someday.

[Mike Armstrong]

I've used 140 and 150 gr. Barnes in my .308 on pigs and Blacktail deer and had no problems. Must say that these were all short distance shots, so accuracy wasn't an issue. The "Hog Hammer" factory rounds shoot around 1 1/4" three shot groups from a rest in my .308x12 guage combination gun and I've never had to shoot twice. Might be a different story with bigger animals at longer distances. Some of the bullets shed at least one "petal" and the core exited from both the blacktails, which were small forkhorn "meat" bucks.

My main problem with non-lead ammunition is finding a supply of .22 WRM for ground squirrel duty!

[roughcreek]

I got my elk last year with a 7MM mag and handloaded 140gr TTSX.
100 yard (or so) shot in the neck and elk dropped in tracks.
Bullet hole out not much bigger than bullet hole in. No
fragments found in meat.
Sighting in after reloading got 1 1/2 in groups (100 yd) using
RL22 powder. Rifle a Ruger 77

[piller]

Though I have never used the Barnes, when I was hunting in Africa with Chris Troskie, he had some Barnes TTS (I think that is right) bullets loaded for his .375 H&H. They were the ones with the plastic tip from Barnes, and I asked if they worked well for the African game. He said that they did, and he liked them for the accuracy and performance on game. Considering that he is a Professional Hunter and Guide in South Africa, it seems to me that he is in a position to have an opinion to be respected on which bullets are good.

[Tactical Lever]

Never used them, as I have seen no need to spend the extra money. They have the advantage of holding together very well at high speeds. The main disadvantage is needing to drive them at high speeds to have a high impact velocity to make them work properly. Its recommended to go down a little in weight from the weight you would use in a cup and core. Doing this, you lose some sectional density, and at long range they will be slowing down faster and losing energy to the jacketed bullets.

Mostly hypothetical for the shots I take at game, but I don't shoot any screamers for velocity either, that would really need a premium bullet.

I don't have anything against the mono-metal bullets, but if you are in California (or anyplace where they are proposing lead bans), you should be fighting tooth and nail against having to use them. Shooting would quickly become just a wealthy man's sport as the price on copper would be driven still higher, and we would rely on the big foundries to make factory bullets.

[Blaine]

My contrary, Non-PC side sez "####" copper bullets, but since we are all destined to use them to hunt someday, I'm glad they seem to work. I'm going to be hacked off beyond belief if all my thousands of lead bullets are ruled illegal to plink with I literally have a lifetime supply of some items....

[m.wun]

The 150gr GMX is as long as a 180gr cup and core in 30 cal. I have shot some into soaked newsprint at 30yd and 100yd and didnt get half
the expansion as the 150 interlocks I normally shoot. Both are at 2800fps out my .308. I think at 300 mag speeds they would open much
nicer. For close range on a hard target I would use these in a minute. I have heard the 130gr Barnes open better in the standard cal. They are supposed to be alittle softer and can be run at 3000fps. The 150gr GMX at 2800fps at 100yd went through 2' wet newsprint then blew through
3- 1 gal jugs. I was running out of things to stack to get one to look at!