Politics/Religion - Oprah's anti-Christian views

[Ysabel Kid]

I know - two topics one should never mix. Hogwash! Anyway, if you're like me, you have a wife at home that idolizes Oprah. Fortunately, mine seems to be able to cut through the liberal garbage and just focus on the messages she likes. Still, this video should worry us all, considering she is, without a doubt, the most influential woman in this country!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA

[C. Cash]

I had thought that she was more subtle in expressing her New Age beliefs....guess not!

[Jeeps]

Sometimes my connection is so slow it wont even let youtube type movies
start up.

This is one of those times.

Is it as bad as it sounds?

[C. Cash]

Yep, it's bad Jeeps. She basically denies that Jesus is the Way and tows the standard New Age line that salvation is found not in Christ but in ourselves. It's not so scary that any one person should believe such rediculous things, but that millions would abandon the Bible as the source of truth and blindly follow such a person is just plain sad.

[El Mac]

She basically denies that Jesus is the Way and tows the standard New Age line that salvation is found not in Christ but in ourselves.

A common mistake for those fortunate enough to be riding the crest of the wave...

[Hagler]

...quite sad...

Shawn

[bigbore442001]

Another reason to spurn anything from Orca Winfrey.

[don Tomás]

Come on, guys, she is going to dedicate a show to her dead dog...</sarcasm>
Tom

CHICAGO (AP) - Oprah Winfrey plans to dedicate a show investigating abuses at puppy mills to her cocker spaniel, Sophie, who died last month from kidney failure.

"Sophie gave me 13 years of unconditional love. She was a true love in my life," Winfrey says on the broadcast scheduled to air Friday. (Advance remarks from the show were released Tuesday by Harpo Productions.)

The show features special correspondent Lisa Ling investigating puppy mills, which Ling calls "horrific" and "haunting."

Winfrey says the show is "for anybody anywhere who loves a dog, has ever loved a dog, or just cares about their basic right to humane treatment."

While Sophie was not a product of a puppy mill, and Winfrey's three current dogs were adopted from breeders, Winfrey says in the future she would look to adopt from an animal shelter.

"I would never, ever adopt another pet now without going to a shelter to do it. I am a changed woman after seeing this show," she says.

[Charles]

Christians would be better off puting the energy and emotion they muster against Orah and her ilk, into the perfection and practice of their own faith.

[El Mac]

Christians would be better off puting the energy and emotion they muster against Orah and her ilk, into the perfection and practice of their own faith.

Yes. Just stay quiet Christians...bow your heads, don't look anyone in the eye, take a good thumping and don't forget to ask for more!

Please Charles.

[Grizz]

Christians would be better off puting the energy and emotion they muster against Orah and her ilk, into the perfection and practice of their own faith.

Ah Charles, have you forgotten that Scripture is also given to rebuke sin?

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

I don't think it damages Scripture to rebuke and correct sinners, does it?

[Hobie]

Is it any wonder she attended Rev. Wright's church? Very sad I think.

[rjohns94]

i posted a topic on Oprah a while back. This continues and I am upset how the Christians are falling into her spell. Sad indeed.

[piller]

Christians would be better off puting the energy and emotion they muster against Orah and her ilk, into the perfection and practice of their own faith.

You should also remember that in James 4:17 it says that he who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it sins. The good we ought to do is expose this to fellow believers. People like her like to hide in plain sight, but can't stand up to scrutiny.

[El Mac]

i posted a topic on Oprah a while back. This continues and I am upset how the Christians are falling into her spell. Sad indeed.

Maybe a minor minority of them. I wouldn't be too concerned.

[Old Savage]

Discernment - recognize what you are looking at. You will see more of this.

[FWiedner]

I was reading an article where scientists in the UK are growing embyos that combine human and bovine DNA, reportedly to have a ready source of harvesting embryonic stem-cells.

I personally believe that not only is Oprah starting her own church, but she is also financing the breeding of her own congregation.

That's right, a docile herd of chubby glassy-eyed Oprahites just standing there listening to every word she says, and occassionally saying Amooooon! Hallelooooooooyah!

Cow people.

And they'll all register Democrat.

[ursavus.elemensis]

It is sad on many levels, not the least of which is that so many people think a wealth-flaunting talk show host is somehow a leader who can provide essentail wisdom to guide their lives. People really need to get out more, experience nature, be more in touch with this world that He has given us, and stop thinking that "the way and the truth" comes in daily hourly installments from some talk show host in Chicago who is more into herself than anything else. What has this world come to???

As for being dedicated to one's dog, well, that is something I wholeheartedly support and I know for a fact that God sends us dogs to make this a better world because the humans have screwed it up big time. I mean, I'm not doing a whole TV show about my dog, but only 'cause I can't find a sponsor.

[C. Cash]

It is sad on many levels, not the least of which is that so many people think a wealth-flaunting talk show host is somehow a leader who can provide essentail wisdom to guide their lives. People really need to get out more, experience nature, be more in touch with this world that He has given us, and stop thinking that "the way and the truth" comes in daily hourly installments from some talk show host in Chicago who is more into herself than anything else. What has this world come to???

As for being dedicated to one's dog, well, that is something I wholeheartedly support and I know for a fact that God sends us dogs to make this a better world because the humans have screwed it up big time. I mean, I'm not doing a whole TV show about my dog, but only 'cause I can't find a sponsor.

Very true Ursavus!

[sgtgrinche]

doesn't oprah back obamma ?

[Ysabel Kid]

I was reading an article where scientists in the UK are growing embyos that combine human and bovine DNA, reportedly to have a ready source of harvesting embryonic stem-cells.

I personally believe that not only is Oprah starting her own church, but she is also financing the breeding of her own congregation.

That's right, a docile herd of chubby glassy-eyed Oprahites just standing there listening to every word she says, and occassionally saying Amooooon! Hallelooooooooyah!

Cow people.

And they'll all register Democrat.

Yes they will!

[Kismet]

Christians would be better off puting the energy and emotion they muster against Orah and her ilk, into the perfection and practice of their own faith.

Ah Charles, have you forgotten that Scripture is also given to rebuke sin?

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

I don't think it damages Scripture to rebuke and correct sinners, does it?

Why anyone would follow the Church of Oprah I don't know and, quite frankly, don't care.

If you are just upset that Oprah may be bastardizing Christianity, do you feel the same way about Mormons? After all, the LDS church is direct offshoot of Christianity - just 150 years or so earlier.

Notwithstanding the ridiculousness of Oprah, the above post typifies the problems with any religion - the apparent goal is not just your salvation, but the conversion (or subjugation) of anyone who doesn't believe what you do. Sorry, but in that aspect it's no different than Islam. Plus, let's face it, you only rebuke and correct what you want to focus on at the moment and usually that has little to do with spreading Christ's love (e.g. McDonnald's is GAY!). The world is so literally overwhelmed with sin (as the Bible defines it) that you would have to be rebuking and correcting others the moment you set foot out the door, that is if you could ever get away from the bathroom mirror. It just seems hard to follow Christ's fundamental message of love and acceptance when you're so busy rebuking and correcting everyone.

Michael in NH

[Marlin .35]

Thank you so much for posting this!!! I watch her often, but I did not know this!!! I was going to buy that book this payday!!!! Very timely message for me. Well, she has lost a viewer, and Barack has lost a vote!!! God Bless America!!!! We need it!!!!!!!!!!!!! Art

[Sarge]

Oprah thinks Hussein is de prez par excel-lance.


My wife, God bless her, recognizes what idiots they both are.

I remember back when Oprah's show was fixin' to debut. All over KC there were billboards that said "Oprah- coming... such and such month and day!" The spelling of the name annoyed me right off the bat. WTH is an 'Oprah'? The fat lady who sings at the end of the Opera? An Oompa-Loompa with a talk show?

What it turned out to be was a major degrading and stupefying force in the American culture war. I keep hoping the fat hog will choke on a truffle.

[C. Cash]

Note to everyone but Kismet(please skip over this as I'm not trying to hijack this...nothing but the ravings of a madman so move along )

Hey Kismet,

First off, I apologize that I am probably the wrong one to put these ideas into words, but here goes. There are some key differences between Christianity and other faiths that you may not be picking up on. Christians, despite the efforts of tyrants throughout history to hijack the Faith for their own purposes, believe in free will. They have since the first Christians formed the first churches nearly 2000 years ago. The men who set our country up were overwhelmingly men of the Christian faith, and knew that faith must be freely chosen, or it means nothing. That's why we sit here in freedom to discuss this with no fear of retribution. You can live according to your concience here because of Christians and their concience. Also, there's no one that I know of being put to the sword for not becoming a Christian either here or worldwide, but the opposite is sadly very true. So Christians coercing or subjugating folks here and abroad is not an accurate picture, especially since they got the chance to actually read the Bible, or big pieces of it, from the 15-1600's onward.

Another key difference between Christianity and other religeons is this:
All the others state "Do this, and live" They put a burden on men that is impossible to live up...have to live by the rules or die, or turn into a grasshopper and not an eagle....etc.

Christianity in contrast is a "religeon" or relationship, which states "Done!" Christ did it for us....we could never be good enough and it took God himself, in His Love and Mercy to do it for us on the Cross. You believe in this, and this is what saves you. How you do with the rules refers to how close your relationship to God is gonna be. So it's not a religeon to put a burden on men that they can't bear, sin wise.

My take on Homosexuality and the Bible: hate the sin, love the sinner. I think this is the stance of the majority of Bible believing Christians today, though there has been much misunderstanding/hatred in the past. I think that most realize that everyone has major sins on them and is no better, and their only hope is Christ covering it on the Cross. But here is where folks get confused and wrongly believe Christians to be inherently intolerant. If the Bible says that Homosexuality is bad, causes death and seperates one relationally with God, is it a loving thing to go along with the Homosexual agenda which seeks to propagate it? Out of love, do you tell your son or brother or sister not to do something, if you know it's gonna hurt them, or do you go along with it? The Christian response is to speak the truth out of love, which is exactly what you find Jesus doing throughout the New Testament. He gave us an earful! But He did it because He loves us....same reason we're supposed to correct others. It's supposed to be balanced with encouragement and open love for one another. We need to do that part more for sure.

Sorry this is so long!

[Iron_Marshal]

Kismet wrote: "the apparent goal is not just your salvation, but the conversion (or subjugation) of anyone who doesn't believe what you do. Sorry, but in that aspect it's no different than Islam."

Wrong. Proselytizing is about sharing the Good Word of Jesus Christ, not subjugation. In the video Opra says there are many ways for people to live and that is true. However, there is only one way to Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ.

Just because you do not believe something to be true does not make it false.

Jesus died for MY MANY sins and thought of me while he died on the cross. He thought about YOU and your sins ... and forgave both of us.

All he asks you to do is accept his gracious gift and believe in him for eternal life.

I am no preacher... pure sinner all the way. But I am forgiven...not subjugated.

I willingly proclaim my love and devotion for Jesus Christ and wish I was strong enough to claim so when every opportunity presents itself to do so. If you deny him then he will deny you in the end.

You do not have to believe this to make it true. Jesus Christ is the TRUTH and the WAY whether or not you accept him... I just pray that you do.

God Bless You!

[clubkey]

I put that video in an email and sent it to everyone I know.

Kismet,

I'm only a sinner saved by Grace and that Grace is the love of God through the death and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Irish Cop said it so much better than myself, but God is real and there is no doubt about that.

However, I'd really appreciate it if you would please keep on keeping on cause I know from past experience at other forums you are not long destined to be at this one.

[El Mac]

It just seems hard to follow Christ's fundamental message of love and acceptance when you're so busy rebuking and correcting everyone.

Michael in NH

Not really. Love the sinner, rebuke the sin. Pretty simple really.

And as far as starting the rebuke as soon as you step foot out your front door, no... I think its a matter of picking your battles. In this case, Oprah speaks to millions of sheep/cattle every day. Ergo, her 'sin' reverberates louder and longer.

[brucew44guns]

An often overlooked bible verse is Romans 6:23. It states that the wages (what we earn and get paid) for sinning---is death. This is eternal death. If I go to 1 John 3:4 I can find the bible definition of sin. "Whoesoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law". It's speaking of the 10 Commandments. So, can I conclude, that if I live a life that constantly breaks Gods Law, I am going to earn (and get paid) the penalty of death?. So while Christ came and paid the penalty of my past sins, I have no blank check to shrug it off that he has done it all for me, and I am exempt from the penalty of breaking Gods law. The woman taken in adultery was forgiven, but she was told to "go and sin no more". There is Grace, there is Forgiveness, in abundance, but there is obedience on our part, if we hope to recieve eternal life one fine day. Oprah is not going to get there with her approach. Bruce

[Charles]

Well boys, let me "splain" it to you. Then you can have another round of post telling me how I am wrong. Now bare in mind that none of what I say applied to anybody on this board, so don't get you noses out of joint. I am just drawing from 37 years of experience as a Pastor. Which should count for something.

1) I have no use for "new age", or any of the other family of qusi-religions that are croping up. I have no problems with telling folks that Oprah nad others of her ilk are wrong headed and Christians should not be seduced by her into this nonsense.

2) I have noticed/observed that the Christian who are most prone to attack non-Christian religions are also the most prone to attack other Christians for minor differences in theology.

3) I have also observed that that these attack folks are also the ones who most often are not deeply involved in personal spiritual disciplines that lead to a mature faith.

4) I have also observed that those attack folks are also the ones who are the least involved in ministries of all sorts.

5) In general I have observed attack Christian to be persons of shallow and superficial faith who get their jollies by attacking others in all areas of life.

6) In short Christians should be known for what they are for and not what they are against.


7) I believe that Jesus is indeed the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except by Him. All other persuasions of men/women carried within themselves the seeds of their own destruction and will in due t ime turn to dust and ashes. They comes under the judgment of God and God will take care of them.

Non-Christians are attracted to a faith that is loving, caring full of grace. They are not attracted to a faith that is harsh, critical and judgmental. Attack Christians do more harm to the faith than good.

This is just one of the things I have learned by watching, and working with Christian every day for 37 years.

[C. Cash]

Just to clarify here Bruce as I think you may have misunderstood part of what I was saying....not advocating God gives us a blank check and that we are not supposed to repent from Sin. The opposite is true. Just saying it is Faith, not works that ultimately save us. We can't earn it as it had to be paid for by One who had not sinned. As you say, we must repent and turn from our sins to stay in a relationship with God...that is a major theme of the Bible. I wasn't trying to advocate otherwise.

[Charles]

"If you are just upset that Oprah may be bastardizing Christianity, do you feel the same way about Mormons? After all, the LDS church is direct offshoot of Christianity - just 150 years or so earlier. " Kismit


Kismit.. For the record, the LDS church is not an offshoot of Christianity. There is no connection whatsoever. They did not morp off some other group but appeared like a mushroom on the religious scene. They are an all new, unique group with no historical connection to Christianity. They are not just another branch on the Christian tree. Joseph Smith was a creative fellow.

In like manner Oprah is not bastardizing Christianity, she is pushin an alternate brand of "spirituality" that bears more resemblance to Eastern religion than it does anything else. She advocates some form of many path, generic, universalism. Not much different from DePac Chopra and other gurus of New Age spirituality.

[rjohns94]

This Oprah thing has got me to thinking. My first response was to change my signature line. My second response was to send it to my pastors for them to digest.

[Charles]

This Oprah thing has got me to thinking. My first response was to change my signature line. My second response was to send it to my pastors for them to digest.

Don't waste your time. I promise you, your pastors got multiple emails on Oprah and this matter weeks ago. I got a dozen. It is just slow getting to this board.

[Grizz]

I'm priviledged to know you guys who are witnessing the Truth of the Gospel. Open testimony is a blessing to every believer and I really appreciate it.

I don't even mind when pastor type chime in, as long as they chime in harmony with Scripture.

Personally, I stopped listening long ago to anything said or written by anyone who goes past Galatians 1:6-9.

Everything I have to know and believe was delivered to the church by the time this was written. Everything added since then is outside this old time faith, saving faith. Every so-called religion, dogma, teaching, cult, group, school of thought, and rigamarol since then is just so much dross.

I guess you could call some of us the Former Day Saints. I can accept the Apostle's Creed as a valid synopsis of the Old Time Faith of the Former Day Saints.

The rest is the fine dust on the balance...

It is so good to know you all, it's a blessing to find true faith to fellowship with.

All my Faith is in Jesus, all my Hope is in God who cannot lie. Pass it around...

Grizz

[Charles]

"I don't even mind when pastor type chime in, as long as they chime in harmony with Scripture. " Grizz

Hummm... methinks I detect a hint of anti-clericalism here.

[Noah Zark]

It is sad on many levels, not the least of which is that so many people think a wealth-flaunting talk show host is somehow a leader who can provide essentail wisdom to guide their lives . . .

People believe in a wealth-flaunting talk show host because they (falsely) believe that by listening to that host and doing what the host says, they too can be as successful.

. . . As for being dedicated to one's dog, well, that is something I wholeheartedly support and I know for a fact that God sends us dogs to make this a better world because the humans have screwed it up big time . . .

It's obvious to me (as a dog owner) that ages ago dogs allowed themselves to become domesticated by man because they found man so easy to train.

Noah

[Grizz]

"I don't even mind when pastor type chime in, as long as they chime in harmony with Scripture. " Grizz

Hummm... methinks I detect a hint of anti-clericalism here.

Only the ones who cross the line, THE line that I referenced in my post. Not many sheep are leading flocks astray.

I love that line in Galatians BTW. It is like the yard stick in the National Bureau of Standards. Anything short of that exact measure is less than a yard, and paradoxically anything longer than that exact measure is also less than a yard. I view the Gospel the same way.

It's like the atomic clock, only perfect because there is no decay, ie no time, in God's Kingdom.

[Charles]

"Only the ones who cross the line, THE line that I referenced in my post. Not many sheep are leading flocks astray"... Grizz


Sounds like a fellow who have never tried to do the very difficult job. It is easy to have the solution and sit in judgment when you have never had the problem. Yep...I do indeed detect the smell of anti-clericalism for sure and for certain. Now that is OK..everybody is entitled to what they think, but just own up to it.

If folks where not willing to commit their lives to the Gospel Ministry where would you and folks like you be today. Everybody at some point owes their faith to those who were willing to lay aside the world and self interest and pick up the cross. I think they deserve a little slack and a modicum of respect.

[C. Cash]

Steady fellas! As we talk about excersizing the Faith and walking the walk here, maybe we should remember that who's listening right now could be more important than being right about a minor point(as it relates to Salvation). Many of you have taught me that over of the years. Yep, I'm up to 6 cents! Proud to know you fellas as well.

PS: I will also say that there is alot going on here behind the scenes...the left hand not letting the right hand know what it's doing if you know what I mean. Personally, I have taken care of my oldest son who has Autism for the past 9 years, nearly 24/7 with nearly no one to help. As Gus might say it, there wasn't a whole lot of folks scrambling to help care for a boy with Autism, so I quit my job and have been with him ever since. That's what I do and the Lord chose my ministry field for me. It's been a very heartbreaking and lonely walk, and the only one that has been here consistantly is the Lord Himself. (Talking to you fellas in cyberworld helps too!) Only He really knows what being done or believed in behind these few words that we type on leverguns. I assume there's a whole lot of folks barely hanging on out there but doing all they can for the Lord.

[Grizz]

"Only the ones who cross the line, THE line that I referenced in my post. Not many sheep are leading flocks astray"... Grizz


Sounds like a fellow who have never tried to do the very difficult job. It is easy to have the solution and sit in judgment when you have never had the problem. Yep...I do indeed detect the smell of anti-clericalism for sure and for certain. Now that is OK..everybody is entitled to what they think, but just own up to it.

If folks where not willing to commit their lives to the Gospel Ministry where would you and folks like you be today. Everybody at some point owes their faith to those who were willing to lay aside the world and self interest and pick up the cross. I think they deserve a little slack and a modicum of respect.

I don't know why you want to own that Charles. Says more about you than me. I was instructed that sheep make sheep. What are you claiming credit for?

BTW, you're so far off the mark about me that I'm amused to let it keep going.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I wonder if Oprah is where she's at with her faith because of what she's heard taught by her former pastor ... the Reverend Wright. You all are probably aware that she was a member of his congregation but had the sense to leave long ago because of some of the messages being put forth ... whereas Mr. Obama stayed on for 20 years. Apparently it is the church attended by many of the more powerful members of the black community in Chicago ... but not by Oprah anymore.

Not on point, but an interesting side note.

[Charles]

My apologies fellows.... I will admit to being hyper sensative at the point of anti-clericalism. I have spent a lifetime in Christian ministry, raised my kids in that environment and tried to have a marrage. Every church has it's group that seems to thrive on finding fault with the pastor and his family. It is sport for them, the take pot shots at the pastor and hold him to a standard they themselves won't even try to meet.

This anti-clerical environment, destroys familes, drives pastor's children from the faith and has ruined many a fine man. The Church is all of it's manifestations is litter with the broken remains of Pastors who have been broken by petty criticism from those whom they try to love and serve.

The sad thing is these folks have never tried to carry the cross one week, must less one lifetime. They are so hasty in the criticism, slow to understand and unwilling to forgive. The church is one place where the leaders are fair game. Folks who can't and won't be a Christian leader think they can pass judgment on those who do.

I will admit there are some Pastors who should not be there, but far, far to many good ones have had their lives turn to stuff, but so called Christians who feel they and their families are free fire zones.

I have seen way, way to much of it in my lifetime, way to much!!! There were 15 young men in my ordination class 37 years ago. Only 5 of us survived 10 years and only 2 have made it to 2008. Many are hurt, wounded and bitter about the church and the so-called Christian who populate it.

Ghandi, said "I like your Christ, but your Christians are so unlike him"

I made it to retirment, upright with my faith still intact. My two children are Christians but a 30 years marrage went down the tubes, due in large part to the pressures on the parsonage family.

Again, my apoligies, but this is where I am coming from and it isn't pretty.

[El Mac]

Charles,

Wow! That is quite an angle into the "behind the scenes of ministry" that I had no idea about. Interesting. And sad. I'm glad you made it, I'm sorry about the marriage though.

That gives me a lot of food for thought.

At any rate, we need more like you.

[Charles]

El Mac.... Don't get me wrong. I believe that God uses the church as the primary tool to spread the Gospel of Grace in Jesus Christi. If, I didn't believe that I would not have hung in there for 37 years as It can be a brutal environment.

My second years as a Pastor I was ready to leave and return to the Practice of Law, due to some unwarranted attacks against me from a couple of people.

A very wise older Pastor told me that where God is most active, there you find find Satan being most active. If Satan can turn a church into a group of critical, bickering people, then he will have nutralized that congregation. They won't be appealing to outsiders and will cease to be a tool of God and therefore a threat to Satan.

Make no mistake, the battle between good and evil is fought most strongly inside the church. If Satan can defeat the ministry and testimony of the church, then he has won.

Many otherwise Christian folks indulge their critical, combative, sinful human nature without giving it a second thought. They do the most awful things to each other "in the name of Jesus" and "for the sake of the Gospel". Many folks have an uncanny ability to place a Christian veneer over the worst parts sinful nature.

Folks outside of the church see this with utmost clarity. Most folks don't have a problem with Jesus, it is just the followers of Jesus that give them problem. They can't see past the hypocrisy into the real warm, loving, true church.

When the day of judgment comes, many church folks will have a sad accounting to make for how they have damaged and destroyed with witness of the Body of Christ.

There are many fine genuine Christian folks in the church, but make no mistake about it, the church is a battle ground between light and dark and to think otherwise is too play the fool. Oprah and he foolish fans are not the true enemy... In the words of Pogo Possum..."We have met the enemy and he is us!"

I have stayed the course and finished the race, because I absolutely refuse to abandon the field to Satan. We struggle, but it really isn't against flesh and blood. The division between clergy and lay folks is an abomination and can be exploited by Satan quite readily.

[Dastook]

I was reading an article where scientists in the UK are growing embyos that combine human and bovine DNA, reportedly to have a ready source of harvesting embryonic stem-cells.

I personally believe that not only is Oprah starting her own church, but she is also financing the breeding of her own congregation.

That's right, a docile herd of chubby glassy-eyed Oprahites just standing there listening to every word she says, and occassionally saying Amooooon! Hallelooooooooyah!

Cow people.

And they'll all register Democrat.

I just spit my coffee all over my computer.

[Kismet]

[Excellent points 1-5 snipped.]

6) In short Christians should be known for what they are for and not what they are against.

[Excellent point 7 snipped.]

This is just one of the things I have learned by watching, and working with Christian every day for 37 years.

Well Charles, it may not giving you any credibility here (in fact it may detract from it), but I think you are very wise in your faith.

"If you are just upset that Oprah may be bastardizing Christianity, do you feel the same way about Mormons? After all, the LDS church is direct offshoot of Christianity - just 150 years or so earlier. " Kismit


Kismit.. For the record, the LDS church is not an offshoot of Christianity. ..... Joseph Smith was a creative fellow.

All I meant by this was that Mormons say they believe in Jesus and still refer to the bible. I guess I consider that an "offshoot." I meant nothing more.

Many otherwise Christian folks indulge their critical, combative, sinful human nature without giving it a second thought. They do the most awful things to each other "in the name of Jesus" and "for the sake of the Gospel". Many folks have an uncanny ability to place a Christian veneer over the worst parts sinful nature.

Folks outside of the church see this with utmost clarity. Most folks don't have a problem with Jesus, it is just the followers of Jesus that give them problem. They can't see past the hypocrisy into the real warm, loving, true church.

On many of the political posts it is made very clear that hypocrisy abounds in all walks of life. I think most would agree that when politicians demonstrate their hypocrisy it makes us detest politics. If I recall correctly, there was a discussion in the Elliot Spitzer thread about how if someone chooses to enter politics then they deserve to be held to a higher standard. The same thing happens with religion. As I said before, it is hard to hear Christ's message of love when his followers seem to be busy judging others. When you go about saying you are a Christian, people expect you to act like it.

My take on Homosexuality and the Bible: hate the sin, love the sinner. I think this is the stance of the majority of Bible believing Christians today, though there has been much misunderstanding/hatred in the past.

I was thinking about this idea quite a bit today. The problem, particularly with the case of homosexuality, is that in practice your nice little phrase doesn't actually work. How can you tell someone who is gay that you love them, but that you hate who they are, because unfortunately that is exactly what you are doing. The phrase may have a little more meaning with other sexual/marital sins like divorce, infidelity, pre-marital sex, etc., because people don't usually deeply identify with being a divorcee, an adulterer, or a pre-marital cohabitor! I don't think that is the case with homosexuality. Because of how society acts, their identity is embedded in their sexuality - and you hate them for it. (Not to mention that it is just hypocritical because although Christians purport to hate other sins equally, not much venom seems to be directed to those other sins I mentioned despite the fact that those sins are FAR more common!)

So, while the phrase is a nice aspirational idea, when Christians try to put it into practice they seem hypocritical, judgmental, and bigoted - none of which are Christ's values.

Michael in NH

[C. Cash]

Charles- I see where you are coming from Sir, and it is well taken indeed.

Kismet- No, thankfully ones worth is not limited by ones actions/sins. If it was I think God would have put the zap on me a long time ago. I think your confusing the two....what we often do is not the sum total of who we are or what we're worth. Everyone was created by God with a purpose, and that tells me that we are all of great value to Him. I can easily love someone and hate what they do. Just living in a family will produce a good illustration of this in a hurry. As far as me being hypocritical in how I treat homosexuals, you would have to walk in my shoes a bit to figure that out for sure.

[Kismet]

Cash - just to be clear I don't mean "you" personally in that post. I'm sorry if it seemed that way because I posted and was responding to your quote. I mean "you" (plural as Christians) as how I see the message Christians generally display. Even then I realize that I am just generalizing - it may not apply to you personally.

Michael in NH

[Grizz]

How can you tell someone who is gay that you love them, but that you hate who they are, because unfortunately that is exactly what you are doing.

wrongo not so.

The Bible states that God hates sexual perversion. Sexual perverts choose their behavior, same as straight folks choose theirs. There is no law that says two males have to bugger each other. And there is nothing 'gay' about that behavior.

Their sexual perversion is not who they are. Who they are is beings created in the image of their Creator who were created to have fellowship with Him, but choose not to.

Christians love them because Christ loves them enough to die for them, to liberate them and free them to worship the living God. But you cannot condone behavior that God specifically hates, can you, and then claim to care for them.

But Divine Love isn't the love that's in the world, and it's worlds away from what the perverts call love, but ordinary people call abuse. Loving someone does not imply accepting or tolerating all their behaviors.

I categorically reject any claim that the behavior someone chooses is "who they are". That's an excuse, it's not reason.

Christ paid the same price to purchase homosexuals as He paid to purchase me. I choose to live as gratefully as I can, imperfect as I am.