Handloading .45 Colt for Uberti 1873

TheTinMan · Post by **TheTinMan** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:04 am

I've found what looks like a nice deal on an Uberti 1873 replica. It's chambered in .45 Colt, which I understand is a low-pressure cartridge. However, Uberti also sells this same rifle chambered in .44 Magnum. That has me wondering if the rifle would be robust enough to handle moderately hotter loads for the .45 Colt.

I'm not suggesting anything approaching what would be a full-house load for a Ruger Blackhawk or Thompson Contender (30,000 PSI). Just want to know if I could push the cowboy loads listed for Colt SAA revolvers a bit (Hodgdon's load data shows 14,000 PSI MAX).

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:43 am

Welcome to the forum!

I own and shoot two Uberti 73`s. .45 Colt and .32-20.
I would stay with the standard loadings when loading for any toggle link rifle.
There has been much discussion concerning bolt thrust etc when loading for them but my thought is
why push any rifle beyond the factory design when there are many other rifles out there that will give higher performance. If you need a .30-06 buy an 06 don`t load a .30-30 up to try to do the same thing. Many thousands of deer have fallen to the original .44-40 and .38-40 calibers they came in.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:03 am

Welcome to the Forum, pull up a sump and sit a spell. U ask a valid question and one that has been covered before. A quick search should reveal the links. I have an Uberti in 45 but have only shot Cowboy loads in it and they sound kinda Pipsqueeky. There are those that say modern steel is soo much better (and it is) but the design is the weak point, those Links are the pressure bearers. Sure U can load em up but for how long ?
Perry

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:03 am

TheTinMan · Post by **TheTinMan** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:04 am

Steve - your data is very interesting. Thank you.

It does, however, lead me back to my original question. If Uberti is making this rifle with an "1873" action which can take .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum chamber pressure, why would the .45 Colt version be limited to 14,000 psi? I doubt that they specify different metal or mechanics for the different chamberings.

I have not run across complaints about the .357 Magnum versions of Uberti's 1873 rifles wearing out quickly. Actually, there seem to be a lot of comments about how great these critters are.

OTOH the fundamental design of the toggle link action IS significantly weaker than an 1892, for example. There is no question about that.

With respect,

Chip

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:44 am

Chip , Welcome to Leverguns . there was some discussion about the .44mag versions only being offered in blued versions as the receiver is heat treated differently than the rest. I had one just like Steve's and they are fine rifles. they may take a fair amount of hotter loads but who knows how many before things start to loosen up? more of our '73 Shooters will be along soon.

.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:48 pm

Well, Looks like I'm going to be the fly inthe ointment here. With low pressure cartridges, there is virtually no backward bolt thrust. I'll tell you why in a post as this is going to be interesting.-----6

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:43 pm

TheTinMan wrote:Steve - your data is very interesting. Thank you.

It does, however, lead me back to my original question. If Uberti is making this rifle with an "1873" action which can take .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum chamber pressure, why would the .45 Colt version be limited to 14,000 psi? I doubt that they specify different metal or mechanics for the different chamberings.

The 45 colt is "limited" to 14000 psi, because that is what the SAMMI spec for the cartridge is. And yes it is quite possible the 357 and 44 magnum recievers and barrels are heat treated to a different hardness, or possibly even different steels.
However there's no need to worry as there are plenty of saami spec tested loads in the 45 colt that give 900-1000 fps from a handgun, and my own chronograph testing indictates that with powders slower than unique the rifle starts to gain 250 or more fps.
If I were to load for one of the 73 Winchester clones I'ld be real quick to look at Alliants web data using bludot. It is a handful in a 5.5 inch barreled Saa, and I'm sure it will do anything the 45 colt cartridge is capable of doing when fired thru a rifle.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:19 pm

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:45 pm

COSteve wrote:[]Blue Dot, like H110 is a magnum pistol powder that works best in top end, magnum loads which produce chamber pressures far in excess of the 14,000psi range limit for the standard 45colt.

Bullspit, you really ought to go take a look at Alliants web data, go down and get a can of bludot, some, bullets and a 45 colt gun then go grab yourself a handful of experience before you go wandering around saying stupid stuff like that.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:59 pm

For those who are either to lazy, not smart enough, to find it themselves.
Copied and pasted right from Alliant's web data.

45 Colt 250 gr Speer LSWC Winchester 1.6 5.5 CCI 300 Blue Dot 12.9 1,028 -
45 Colt 230 gr Speer GDHP Winchester 1.6 5.5 CCI 300 Blue Dot 13 1,036 -
45 Colt 260 gr Speer JHP Winchester 1.59 5.5 CCI 300 Blue Dot 13 941 -

The 12.9 grs with the 250 gr bullet has become my go to 45 colt load, replacing the long tried and true 9 grs of unique. I have not chronographed it from my Winchester, but it does shoot plenty accurate enough to swat the sillouette ram at 250 yds with extreme regularity.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:22 pm

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:36 pm

I suspect you're lying, that data has been on Alliants web site for several years. Not to mention they listed it in the freebie load tables even when it was Hercules...
But no matter, it works and works well, and you really ought to have some real world experience before you try to trash some one who does....

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:11 pm

Chip,

and Welcome to THE Forum.

I'm the cautionary type, I have 2 Uberti toggle links in 45 Colt; an 1860 and 1873. And like most others in this chamberingm the chambbers are generous, maybe to a fault. For this reason I would take bolt thrust calculations and err on the low side. Frankly, I would not buy a toggle link in a 44Mag.

One of the big complaints about the Uberti 45 are those large chambers. Mind ya, this is mostly from those CAS guys that shoot light loads... but even moderate loads will soot up cases in my 1860. The 1873 not so much... but it was one of the first 5 rifles imported from Uberti in this cartridge.

But, those large chambers make me wonder about that momentary lull between the bullet being released and the sides of the case gripping the chamber... and what that means in the way of bolt thrust. Ergo, my reluctance of loading mine very hot. I have the 24-¼" barrel, and probably should load up some 45Colt loads that more closely approximate factory loads and see what type of velocity I'm getting. Most of my stuff being for cowboy action shooting.

And in keeping with Don's recommendation of Blue Dot, their top load of 12.9grains shows 1028fps from a 5.5" barrel... looks good... I've always had plenty of success with Alliant load data. Tho' I've typically stock to RedDot in the .45Colt as one uses quite a bit less of it... being the frugal Scotsman that I am!

But, it only shows a 1,001fps from 7.3 grains of RedDot from that same 5.5" barrel.

I have a few rounds of factory Winchester ammo with a 225 grain HP... that's suitable for my SAAs, but I've never chrono'd any... in either rifle or handgun. It's listed as 850fps from a 3" vented barrel... so unless the powder is VERY fast, it should up that fairly well in an additional 21"!

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:10 pm

Griff Alliant right now lists that load as saami spec 45 colt. In the older Hercules data they show the pressure from just a touch more powder at 11400 psi. That ought to work right dang well in one of those 73 clones, and give a fella some really useful ballistics.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:59 am

I have found that Blue Dot has worked extremely well at 12,500 CUP in the .44-40. That is the data in the Hercules / Alliant manuals for 12 grs. under a 200 gr bullet giving 1,225 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel. According to the data, Blue Dot produced 10% more velocity at the same chamber pressure than Unique.

Based on that, as Don indicated, Blue Dot works just fine in the larger .45 Colt giving higher velocities at safe pressures for the '73 than faster burning powders.

Griff,
I have chronographed the Winchester 225 hollow pointed ammo in a 24" barrel and they ran 1,060 average.

w30wcf

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:11 am

TheTinMan · Post by **TheTinMan** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:38 am

Guys - I greatly appreciate the input from all of you.

I had no idea that this topic was a subject of ongoing controversy. Disagreements are fine. Personal attacks are not. Just my humble opinion.

My inclination at this point is to wait and find two lever guns: a Marlin 1895 for a cartridge starting with a "4" that I can push as hard as I want to and something else chambered in .357 Magnum, probably an Uberti 1873.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:46 pm

There's really no controversy, CO Steve is a particularly aggrevating little troll, that is somewhat selective with who he tries to get stupid with. And as evidenced by a quick look at the data, and the info shared by Mr. Kort bludot is a fine powder for making a number of cartridges work quite well and stay within saami specs and give excellent velocity. (yes even Hercules/alliant says so in their data)

The 73 Winchester is not the rifle to try and push the envelope with. Marlins are somewhat better, but still saami specs need to be adhered to. And keep in mind that when you use powders slower than unique, velocity gains in a rifle gets to be substantial.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:22 pm

Does experience count? You know, not looking at websites and their info.

I've only been using Blue Dot for close to 40 years and have found it to work excellent in all loadings of the old cartridges in the low midrange, midrange, and hot....the hot for modern magnums. Blue Dot ignites easily with standard primers and is not even close to being in the same class as H-110 or WW 296, or for that matter, 2400 or 4227.

It's just a tad slower than Herco which is another favorite of mine.-------6
Tin Man, go ahead and have fun and don't worry....just use common sense.

AND GRIFF, may I educate you on the merits of the construction of the 45 l. Colt case? Thank you!
I'm sure you know why the 45 Colt case is notorious for blow back in light loads.-----The walls are much thicker than 44-40's, etc., so if the dang pressure from normal loads can't swell up a weak brass case, how is it gonna peen modern steel in toggle links?.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:53 pm

Tman also if you are dead set on a 73 in 357, you might want to take a look at Winchesters latest release. Myself I'ld rather have the Winchester roll mark and proof marks for the same money as the ones brought over from Italy.

jager3 · Post by **jager3** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:37 pm

I too have read John Barsness article on "Bolt Thrust" (plus, Ken Waters and P.O Ackley's articles regarding the subject) and find that the information from the "Biologist", "Engineer", and "Layman" have been conflicting when trying to apply one "theory" to fit multiple case designs. I too was surprised when Uberti, who must have a really good insurance policy, came out with a 1873 in a .44 Magnum chambering. (I have talked to one of their "tech" guys, at an NRA show, that assured me that the "steel" and design would handle the increased pressure!) I have read that Steve (aka Kiowa) does not regard the 1873 rifle as having the strength to endure "full power" loads in a .357 Magnum for "long term" use. (I do not know if he has engineering background; however, I do know he sees a lot more 1873's in one month than I will see in a life time.) I have come to the conclusion that "straight walled" cases, just like bullets over .35 caliber seem to defy "common wisdom" that applies to small caliber and "bottle necked" cases. While I'm sure there is a "mathematical" reason why, I prefer the experience documented by those that have tested their theories, as so many of you have done (hopefully those with one less finger or thumb have spoken out

) I am not a "competition" or Cowboy shooter, so I am interested in the best "hunting load" and general use target load; thus, economy of loading merits as much of my attention as the load that is the most efficient "game getter".

I have noted, also, that Brian Pearce of "Handloader" magazine has "upped-the-ante" on maximum pressure for the 1873 pistol and rifle "clones" in .45 Colt. While I don't believe any of these "experts" give me "license" to stretch the safe design limits of either rifle and pistol in this caliber, I do think that the maximum load of the .45 Colt is significantly greater than that established when SAAMI specs were first published for that round. Pearce's data gives me renewed confidence in the "toggle link" action in that I will not get a "bolt-in-the-eye" if I go much over SAAMI specs. (I do not take this event, or the "safety" aspect of reloading, lightly; and do appreciate input from this "learned" membership who has taken the time to address all aspects of loading this cartridge.)

My own test loads with 12.9gr of Blue Dot in a 20" Uberti 1873 "Short Rifle" in .45Colt, using CCI primers in New Starline brass chronographs (PACT) at 1240fps using a Lee 255 mold dropping bullets of an average weight of 253 grains. If I use Winchester WLP primers, the velocity goes to 1290 to 1300fps, which is getting into the .44 Magnum pistol "arena" (plenty of power for my intended purpose!). "Posters" on this blog has "steered" me to even better loads with Dupont SR4759 powder, but velocity much over 1400fps gets into the region of too much recoil and too little, trajectory gain!

I have found, as many "Cowboy Shooter's" have well known and documented, that Unique (in particular) leaves a lot of "soot" on the cases in .45 Colt; for it has always been a "dirty" powder to me. I have encountered less soot when I go to 9.0 grains, or slightly more (better sealing caused by more pressure?). I have not had the soot problem with 11.0 grains of AA5, and 10.5 to 11.0 with a 253gr bullet gives me right at 1200fps depending on whether I use cast or jacketed bullets.

My observations and HO. Thanks for all of yours. Blessing!

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:48 pm

When I had the Uberti '73 .45 Colt, I went the other way. I loaded a 200grn cast bullet over enough HS-6 to get to 1300fps. tried to duplicate the .44cal factory BP load. trouble with Me was I wanted to move up the scale for some more fun.....I sold the '73 and bought My first 45-70. one of the few times in life that the light went on.....

.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:38 pm

I got my first 45 Colt in a Colt SAA in 1974... and loaded with 700X... Found that it was limited... Couldn't get 900fps... not even as good as the BP loading! So I tried Unique, 9.5 grains of it! LOVED it! And from a Colt SAA, I didn't really ever experience sooty cases at all... What the heck... it does the job... End of story. Until I started cowboy shooting, some 11 years later. You know what they say to you when you break welds on their steel targets? When you knock all 6 plates down with one shot? I do.

So I started the seach for a slightly less vigorous load.

PB in the .38 Spl was so clean, I gave it a try... but load density was so slight as to make a triple charge a real threat. I settled on RedDot for years. A little dirtier than PB, but the load density was safer, and I fell in love all over again. I could shoot lighter bullets and compete with the folks using their 158 grain .38Spl mouse phart loads with a "Big Boy" gun. Using a 185WFN, I never had any issues with keeping up.

I then went from the 1892 in .357 to an Uberti 1873 in .45 Colt. Until the mid-'90s I was competitive with most of the top shooters... In 1987 I switched from smokeless to BP used the 1873 rifle and an ASM 1851 Navy clone. This gun was built of mostly Uberti parts left over from the Colt 2nd Gen BP series. I quickly had the hand spring replaced with a Ruger plunger and spring... and never looked back. In 1989, SASS eliminated the requirement for a C&B revolver in BP, and initiated the "Frontier Cartridge" category. I switched back to my Colt SAA. I won the FC class at the National Shootout in Raton in '91 & '93, and finished 2nd in 1990, '92 & '94. (Yes, there were many more than just two of us)! At EOT (the World's of SASS), I had finished as high as 3rd, and as low as 5th, but... they tended to have larger, closer targets, even back then. And, at the Nationals, it was 10 seconds for a miss vs. 5 sec. at EOT and most SASS venues at the time. Plus distances were more in keeping with challenging shots, vs. just going as fast as you can.

And SASS has been the focus of most of my shooting the .45 Colt for all the years since. Since my 1873 is still in "as built" condition, no short stroke or custom springs... I've steadily reversed my standings at the end of most matches... Mainly because I don't practice, shoot very seldom and generally cut up during the match... But, "clean" matches are my focus... and I do have a collection of "clean match" pins. And I've dropped my bullet weight to 160 grains.

Enter "Wild Bunch" matches. And these have upped the ante for some cowboy shooters. Targets are generally farther away, and much smaller and in far greater numbers. The focus for WB matches is the 1911, so 4-5 magazines is almost mandatory during most stages. (One factor I can't seem to fathom, or make a dent in, is the call for only 5 shots per mag). Stupid. But... it will point out reload issues!

And with a more reasonable "power factor" for both pistol and rifle, the mouse phart load thing in SASS is gone! With a minimum rifle caliber of .40, .38WCF, 44WCF and 45 Colt abound!

The one thing SASS has going for it... is that it is one of the few shooting sports that attracts folks that have no prior shooting or gun experience. It's been described as a costume contest wrapped up in a shooting competition. And while the "costuming" turns some folks off, it also attracts quite a few. I know several shooters whose spouses have joined them in the shooting, just because of the costuming. And, many, like my wife, have encouraged my acquisition of even more guns. Then, when she tired of sharing her guns with my then 10 year old son, supported the decision to buy him his own. She thought it quite grand when I bought her a Colt SAA of her own! Ok, it's a .357, but it's a Presentation 2nd gen. gun. With two of them to her name, she's well outfitted with her Rossi 1892 and 20 ga side by side. And after some coaching and training by a couple of very good cowboy shooters, she's done well in competition also. While she'd been exposed to shooting, it was only after we were married, and only a few trips to the range. Which she didn't really enjoy all that much... but with SASS... she got to show off her seamstress skills, as well as learn a great deal about guns and ammo. Even going so far as to learning how to reload her own ammo.

Now, you can denigrate SASS all you want to, but... you'd be wrong.

I don't tell anyone how hot they can load their ammo... but I will caution them against two aspects of such ammo. Sometimes the hottest of loads, even if within SAAMI specs, is not the most accurate load one can find... Additionally, sustained use of the hottest loads possible can fatigue metals and tolerances until such time as accuracy simply goes away. I'm of the opinion that one makes an investment in ones guns... and, be it large or small, abusing that investment is a crime.

However, after shooting some of those 12.9 gr. BlueDot loads today... that ain't abuse! Sure wished that wind hadn't broken the tripod for the chronograph today... it'd have been fun to know just what they were clockin' out of my 24-¼" and 20" barrels! One of the first signs that one is overloading the action on a toggle link (or most levers), is the tendency for hot loads to pop the lever down. Didn't even come close with these loads. My 1873 Uberti Rifle was built in 1986, and has been used in CAS since it was new. It's been fed a few SAMMI loads in the past for some "long range" side matches... and a couple of hundred thousand CAS loads of 6.5 gr of RedDot under a 225gr TC bullet, or 29-24 grs of Goex.

Given the strength of the 1892 action, hot-roddin' the .45 Colt above their SAMMI spec is a no-brainer! I've loaded mine up using .44 Mag data, and while they aren't really all what they are in a .44 Mag., they're a LOT of fun also! I use the "Ruger" data for the .45Colt all the time in the 1892... but I DON'T use them in a toggle link.

Frankly, if you want to hot-rod a .45 Colt, use a Ruger BH (or an original sized Vaquero), or an 1892 action, period. Sure wished the plasti-gage experiment would've worked. Between my son & I, we still shot about 30 rounds of 12.9 grs. of BlueDot under 250 gr Speer JHPs and 225 gr TC cast bullets today in my 1860 Henry, 1873 and 1892. All fun loads... even if I had to adjust my sights from my usual settings for CAS! We also burned thru about 250 rounds of .40S&W in his STI Edge... competing to see who could "cut the rope"! DAD WON! As was expected... by me, anyway!

So, in closing, as far as I'm concerned, whether John Barness is right, or wrong... still remains to be seen. Oh yeah, took the camera, but left the SD card in the 'puter... so no pictures! Sorry guys!

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:37 am

If you look for the loads for .45 Colt on the powder manufacturer's websites, you will find quite a few loads that give velocity in the 1,000 fps range that do not exceed 14,000 psi. I am partial to Hodgdon powders, but that is not the only one to give you the loads you want. If you use the slower powders in a rifle, you can probably get a little more velocity without an increase in pressure due to the fact that the pressure curve is more flattened with them. Look up data for the powder that you can find where you live, and then load up and try it. You might find that the rifle will give all the accuracy and penetration that you could ask for even with the loads that are safe in any style of action.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:59 am

Buck Elliot has posted some data using Hodgdon's H4198 powder for the .45 Colt. I remember him saying the pressure curve is more gradual, while still in the range of the SAAMI spec standard limits, but giving increased velocity in revolvers as well as rifles. 23.5grs under a 250 lead bullet gave him over a thousand fps from a 7-1/2" barrel & 1400fps from a 24" '73 rifle. BTW, he said to use a mag primer, too. I've gotten 1450s in my 24" '73. jd45

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:19 am

jd45 wrote:Buck Elliot has posted some data using Hodgdon's H4198 powder for the .45 Colt. I remember him saying the pressure curve is more gradual, while still in the range of the SAAMI spec standard limits, but giving increased velocity in revolvers as well as rifles. 23.5grs under a 250 lead bullet gave him over a thousand fps from a 7-1/2" barrel & 1400fps from a 24" '73 rifle. BTW, he said to use a mag primer, too. I've gotten 1450s in my 24" '73. jd45

Didnt Buck also use RL7 in the 45C. I know Alliant has data for the 38/40 and 44/40 using RL7 .

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:58 pm

He may have used that also, but I'm certain he used H4198. I've used RL-7 in my Rossi per Paco Kelly's article on the .45 Colt in rifles. I must say the results were very disapointing. You can't get enough in the case to attain the velocities he claimed, unless maybe he used a BP drop tube, which I did not. I'd sure like to know his secret for gettin just under 2200fps with a 260 hardcast K-SWC out of a Browning, I truly would. If anyone else has, please post your method, OK? Thanx, jd45

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:08 pm

jager3 wrote:I too have read John Barsness article on "Bolt Thrust" (plus, Ken Waters and P.O Ackley's articles regarding the subject) and find that the information from the "Biologist", "Engineer", and "Layman" have been conflicting when trying to apply one "theory" to fit multiple case designs. I too was surprised when Uberti, who must have a really good insurance policy, came out with a 1873 in a .44 Magnum chambering. (I have talked to one of their "tech" guys, at an NRA show, that assured me that the "steel" and design would handle the increased pressure!) I have read that Steve (aka Kiowa) does not regard the 1873 rifle as having the strength to endure "full power" loads in a .357 Magnum for "long term" use. (I do not know if he has engineering background; however, I do know he sees a lot more 1873's in one month than I will see in a life time.) I have come to the conclusion that "straight walled" cases, just like bullets over .35 caliber seem to defy "common wisdom" that applies to small caliber and "bottle necked" cases. While I'm sure there is a "mathematical" reason why, I prefer the experience documented by those that have tested their theories, as so many of you have done (hopefully those with one less finger or thumb have spoken out ) I am not a "competition" or Cowboy shooter, so I am interested in the best "hunting load" and general use target load; thus, economy of loading merits as much of my attention as the load that is the most efficient "game getter".

I have noted, also, that Brian Pearce of "Handloader" magazine has "upped-the-ante" on maximum pressure for the 1873 pistol and rifle "clones" in .45 Colt. While I don't believe any of these "experts" give me "license" to stretch the safe design limits of either rifle and pistol in this caliber, I do think that the maximum load of the .45 Colt is significantly greater than that established when SAAMI specs were first published for that round. Pearce's data gives me renewed confidence in the "toggle link" action in that I will not get a "bolt-in-the-eye" if I go much over SAAMI specs. (I do not take this event, or the "safety" aspect of reloading, lightly; and do appreciate input from this "learned" membership who has taken the time to address all aspects of loading this cartridge.)

My own test loads with 12.9gr of Blue Dot in a 20" Uberti 1873 "Short Rifle" in .45Colt, using CCI primers in New Starline brass chronographs (PACT) at 1240fps using a Lee 255 mold dropping bullets of an average weight of 253 grains. If I use Winchester WLP primers, the velocity goes to 1290 to 1300fps, which is getting into the .44 Magnum pistol "arena" (plenty of power for my intended purpose!). "Posters" on this blog has "steered" me to even better loads with Dupont SR4759 powder, but velocity much over 1400fps gets into the region of too much recoil and too little, trajectory gain!

I have found, as many "Cowboy Shooter's" have well known and documented, that Unique (in particular) leaves a lot of "soot" on the cases in .45 Colt; for it has always been a "dirty" powder to me. I have encountered less soot when I go to 9.0 grains, or slightly more (better sealing caused by more pressure?). I have not had the soot problem with 11.0 grains of AA5, and 10.5 to 11.0 with a 253gr bullet gives me right at 1200fps depending on whether I use cast or jacketed bullets.

My observations and HO. Thanks for all of yours. Blessing!

I have been shooting the Uberti 73 and it's big brother the 1876 for some time now. What I have found is the action on these models is considerably stronger and more capable than "common knowledge" would have us believe. The Uberti 73 is fully capable and safe in the 44 mag chambering - period! One can also push the 45LC safely past the loads recommended for the Colts SAA - just don't go crazy - it ain't a magnum! I have found with the Uberti 1876 that my shoulder gives out Loooooonnnnng before the rifle shows any distress! I guess the point here is that most of the folks giving advice on loading for these toggle link arms are simply repeating the rules that applied to BP arms manufactured prior to the use of nickel steel. The problem is that few have really questioned the old wisdom to determine if it actually applies to the new - with the exception of Uberti, who has determined that their 73 is far more capable than the "experts" regurgitating the old rules believe.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:04 am

jd45 wrote:He may have used that also, but I'm certain he used H4198. I've used RL-7 in my Rossi per Paco Kelly's article on the .45 Colt in rifles. I must say the results were very disapointing. You can't get enough in the case to attain the velocities he claimed, unless maybe he used a BP drop tube, which I did not. I'd sure like to know his secret for gettin just under 2200fps with a 260 hardcast K-SWC out of a Browning, I truly would. If anyone else has, please post your method, OK? Thanx, jd45

Yep.. I TRIED RL-7, with disappointing results.. It is too 'slow' for optimum performance in the .45 Colt..

H-4198 (not IMR, which is slightly faster in this application) gave me exactly what I was looking for, which included maximum loading density, and minimum Standard Deviation, at the target velocity.. (how does S.D. of 9 grab you..?) Accuracy and consistency proved best when using .454" diameter, hard-cast bullets, instead of the usual .451" or .452" diameter slugs..

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:29 pm

Buck, I've got some range results I'd like to report & get your feedback on, if you're willing to comment. I loaded 15 rounds with a Meister .454" RNFP; 25.0GRS of the "H" variety; & a CCI350(MAG) primer. Here are the numbers:
#1-1246FPS
#2-1249FPS
#3-1205FPS
#4-1193FPS
I didn't fire any more of them, being disheartened at the velocity. Knowing what you use, at least what I read, any thoughts as to the low speed given the grain-and-a-half more powder? Thanx, jd45
BTW Buck, I forgot to say what rifle........it's a '73 Uberti Sporting Rifle w/24" octagon barrel.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:52 pm

I wish I could say for sure where the differences come from.. As stated, somewhere in the discussion, I load .454"-dia bullets, and in addition, I apply a heavy roll crimp..

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:36 pm

Thanx Buck. I will say I tried to follow your loading practices for this one as closely as possible. Maybe I'll bump the charge up another grain or two & see what results I get. jd45

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:36 pm

24 grains will bring the powder level up to the base of a seated Oregon Trail, 250-gr cast bullet, seated to 1.58" O.A..L. 25 gr of H-4198 should give just enough beginnings of compression to hold the powder immobile in the case..

Approaching 100% loading density was one of my original goals, as I developed my loads. It seems to have paid off, in terms of consistency and accuracy, at a velocity I am very happy with...

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:47 pm

jd45,
I have tried H4198 in my .45 Colt (Marlin Cowboy) in higher doses, enough to clock an average of 1,514 f.p.s. with a 255 gr. cast bullet.
Accuracy was very good.

By interpolation, 25 grs. / my load x 1,514 = 1,266 f.p.s. which is very close to your results.

I also tried RL7 and it pushed the 255 gr bullet to an average of 1,465 f.p.s. with good accuracy.

I was using capacity loads with the powder being settled into a neck sized case. Primer was Fed 155 magnum pistol.

I would not suggest using the same loads in your '73 since I don't know what kind of pressure they develop.

w30wcf

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:06 pm

Thanx for the feedback Buck. I will experiment with those charge weights, and clock them. jd45

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:17 pm

w30wcf...........John, you & I have discussed using Reloader-7 for the .45 in the past. I followed your practice of neck-sizing the cases & using the FED 155s to light the fire. I will only fire them in my Rossi '92, as I don't wanna KABOOM my most prized firearm possession. Paco seems to have gotten some amazing results with it, based on one of his articles. Thank you, too, for your input. jd45

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:50 pm

Welcome to the fire!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:23 am

Buck,

Slightly off the topic, but how much of a flash does a case full of H4198 give when fired from a revolver?

I ask because your load with that powder intrigues me and I tend to load my ammo so I can shoot it from any and all guns of that cartridge. It should make a dandy load from my Cattleman if it's pressure is suitable for a toggle link rifle.

Joe

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:31 am

The flash from H-4198 is a medium-bright, orange flame.. NOT a blazing fireball like what we see from a lot of "hotter" powders.. I also wanted a load that would work well in all my .45 Colt guns, which include a 7 1/2" single-action, and two 4 3/4" versions..