After Extensive Testing HD Weapon Of Choice

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:39 am

Guys,

JMHO---------stuff below-------verify as correct yourself and judge as correct for yourselves!

Last couple weeks have been doing some pretty extensive testing of a multitude of weapons to come up with (what I consider in my situation)------the best HD weapon.
Sorry--------because of photobucket anymore(PITA)and not the bread type-----------pics(well,you will just have to imagine)

One thing I did prior(was find out the facts before making any modifications to any weapon)in the legal sense)will explain further down below later.

So, I tried AR's/Handguns/Rifles/Shotguns etc.
I used Hams/water jugs/wood planks/wet/dry newspaper/beef bones truth box/doors,metal and wood/even couple old trees nearing life's end.(Truth Box didn't last long)

After everything said and done---------------------after all the fancy hoopla-------------what was the "one" ??????????????

Well, let's just say--------------Uncle Joe was right---------------Buy a Shotgun

A 31.5" (18.75" barreled)double barrel 12ga 3" chamber side by side.(two trigger)

This combined with one chamber loaded with the Remington Magnum 41 pellet #4 Buck and the other barrel loaded with Remington Magnum 15 pellet 00 Buck------------capable without words.

Any of you guys making changes to your shotguns be (careful)---------from all the calls made to powers to be and so on-------here are a few things I came up with.
#1------------though the shotgun deal says(at least 18")FROM THE MANF.------one that has the barrel modified----it must be 18.5" min.
#2------------That barrel after being shortened to at least 18.5999999 must have a front sight on it.
#3------------the stock,be very careful about just cutting it down(say so that the guns OAL is 26" min) THE GUN MUST BE ABLE TO BE SHOULDERED AND FIRED BY THAT MANNER. (from the shoulder if it was originally mfg that way)

An example of a proper weapon might be--------------standard Stoeger Uplander that had 26" barrels now with 18.75" barrels(w/front sight) and total OAL length of gun at 31.75" with still having a shoulder able butt stock.

Now--------DO NOT take my words as law(do your own verification for your area/usage)and how the law will apply to you.
Please DO NOT ask me where I got this info because I was asked---(not to mention names to the public)on a public site----though will say---(pretty high up the chain)--------------gotta pursue further yourself if so inclined.

Bottom line-----------------Uncle Joe------was right--------------when all said and done---------------make mine a double!

God Bless

ps-------------another thing to consider----is God forbid that weapon ever had to be used for HD (Hope not)
Using a recommended weapon from our VP compared to a AR/Mini 14/M1A /high powered semi handgun etc.-------------can't hurt also with any type legal defense. Just my 2 cents! as also with the words from Uncle Joe-----(loaded with buckshot)can't be bad in that arena too!

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:20 am

I kind of figure that a HD weapon, you don't need buckshot as I suspect the trauma from just a regular duck/pheasant load would work just fine at HD ranges of probably 25' or less

Thanks for the work and info. I am sure that the buckshot would do the job very well!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:27 am

I like shotguns, but, a double is not enough firepower. I think high cap pumps are mo betta...

86er · Post by **86er** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:42 am

While I cannot dispute the effectiveness of your choice in firearm, configuration and ammo I respectfully disagree with the reliance on a 2-shot (or other low capacity) firearm for home defense. Statistics reported at the end of 2012 reporting period by DOJ, which is a compilation of local jurisdictions reporting, suggests that: 1) Crimes against people in public, number of offenders averages 2.2 per incident. 2) Crimes against persons in private commercial property excluding domestic, employee and landlord-tenant averages 2 offenders. 3) Crimes against property in a dwelling or residence number of offenders averages 2.6. 4) Crimes against persons in a dwelling or residence where violence is used or attempted against persons lawfully occupying the number of offenders is 3.2 (excludes domestic related). 5) Crimes against person or property in an occupied dwelling where violence and theft are intended and combined, commonly referred to as "home invasion" (not including rival offenders in gang, drug or organized crime activity) averages 3.6 offenders. The decimal points are due to the totals being averaged and converted for reporting purposes.

So - the number of offenders you are likely to encounter is at least two and could easily exceed three if you fall into the law of averages. Without going through the entire report I will mention that "urban" was on the low end of average number of offenders, the highest number of offenders (and most incidents involving multiple offenders) was "sub-urban" and "semi-rural" and area reported as "rural" had the number of offenders going down again.

This makes sense to me. Someone has to drive and then probably stay with the car. Two others need to provide the continued courage for the other to actually go through with it. They made need a look-out. Larger homes and businesses are going to be bigger and have more loot - so you need more help to deal with the occupants and find/take the property. A larger home may have more occupants than a smaller one (in perception).

So if I am likely to have to deal with a minimum of 2 offenders and more likely 3+, and an under stress hit-ratio might be something like 50%, and depending on the firearm and where the bullets land it may take several shots per offender to render them incapable of continuing their bad acts, then I figure I need a minimum of 10 rounds - and that's if all goes well.

I think the shotgun is perfect is you can stop the offenders BEFORE they get in. Like if you identify someone breaking down the door or climbing through a window. Shoot that person and the others will likely flee. Once they are in - or in the event they are determined and not deterred by your gun, or multiple offenders enter from different points, you better have more ammo-lots of practice reloading-moving and shooting- taking cover - and transitioning to another firearm (with more capacity).

I respect your choice and appreciate it as one tool in a battery of tools intended for home defense. But when you state it as "the best HD weapon" I have to disagree. Something with more rounds, maybe a light, quick reload, more portable will get me further in a very bad situation. And if someone is in your house and especially using force, a "legal defense" is the last thing I'd consider. Saving my family and myself no matter what is priority. I am confident if I feel the need to shoot I am well justified whether I use a .22 single shot or throw a hand grenade. Force is force. The implement does not matter. I like your choice for a very limited purpose but I know you have other tools available. I urge you to have the right handgun or carbine ready to go first and only grab the shotgun for limited instances that you've thought through. Your Uncle Joe has never been right.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:13 am

One thing that can be said for the side by side shotgun is, if viewed from the wrong end, a sudden feeling of a need for new underwear can occur.

Being more of like Stumpy in Rio Bravo than the Terminator, I reckon learnin' to reload real fast is all I can do...

Thanks to UK law my pump only holds three anyway..

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:11 pm

U have to remember Joe that uncle Joe said to just shoot it in the "Air" not at anybody.
I have a Remington mod 11 Riot Shotgun with extended magazine that holds 7 rounds. Back that up with a 1911 45 and that should cover it. I have to agree on a Shotgun for HD though but would want more than 2 rounds.
Perry

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:10 pm

I think the choice will depend on your particular situation. Some will chose a handgun but many time these encounters happen in low light, (at night) so hitting with a handgun will be dicey and the muzzle flash will limit you to one aimed shot and you have to think about over-penetration.
If you live in town with neighbors close by I think a shotgun is a good choice for several reasons. It is devastating power up close but the projectiles usually don't over penetrate endangering your neighbors. I also think it should be at least a pump with as much ammo as it will hold. I think it should have a flashlight with a pigtail type switch mounted so the light now becomes your aiming device. That's important for two reasons. Moving to clear a house is difficult if the gun is shouldered. It allows you to shoot from the hip if needed.
For years I have used this 870 Marine as my main HD. It also served as my offshore gun when fishing.

Currently I'm working on this semi-auto Saiga 12ga. Once I know it's reliable it will be my new HD gun. Should be somewhat handier with the folding stock.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:41 pm

BlaineG wrote:I like shotguns, but, a double is not enough firepower. I think high cap pumps are mo betta...

I like revolvers AND shotguns, so for awhile, THIS 'double-action revolver-shotgun' was our HD Weapon of Choice...

Once they reclassified them as 'destructive devices' (

) I had to get them 'papered' then decided to sell them. Found a Class-III dealer who walked me through the process. Instead I decided if I was going to have anything that regulated, it should be something I actually use, instead of something I hope not to have to use, so I got my first two suppressors with the proceeds.

Still, they were COOL and mean-looking shotguns.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:51 pm

Some very good points guys.
Very interesting statistics Joe!
(Thanks all)

I kind of knew when posting this---------the higher capacity deal would come up for sure.
It's just man oh man, after obtaining this new ammo------and really testing it through its paces with this open choked tiny double I guess I might have gotten carried away. She does kick though!

Will consider everything-------and will reflect on it!

See ya!

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:10 pm

Remington 870 12ga. with plug removed (5 shots) and a butt cuff containing 5 more.

Use the load of your choice. I have buck and Copper plated #4`s for HD ammo.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:51 pm

While I am careful about telling people that their choice is wrong (I am not one who believes there are absolute right and wrong ways to do most things when it comes to fighting or defense), and I would rather see people armed than not, with whatever they choose, I am not of the opinion that a shotgun is the best home defense weapon, and certainly not a double-barrel. Still, a shotgun can be a versatile and effective weapon, and if it is what you have and prefer, then you are at least well armed.

I personally believe that an AR-15 carbine with a reflex optic and the right ammunition is a better choice for most people. A few quick reasons are:

Short length and light weight of the weapon. It is easier to use in confined spaces, and easier to lock into a correct body position. It may be me facing violent aggressors, or it could be my wife or one of my small children. Some of my children can handle an AR-15 carbine. None of them are large enough to handle a shotgun effectively.

Low recoil. Low recoil is always an advantage in a fight. Again, I may not be the one who is shooting, and if I am, I still want a light, short, well balanced (for fighting, not hunting) weapon with the lightest recoil possible within reason. Low recoil means faster, more accurate followup shots.

Capacity. One thing that we see in self-defense courses is that when we put people under stress, they shoot a lot of rounds. Under stress, you may kill the aggressor with the first shot, but you will tend to (and should) keep shooting until he is down. Even when people are killed, they often take a second or two to go down, or even longer, depending on their focus and mindset at the time they are shot. In sniping (long distance), you kill with one shot if possible. In CQB (short range), you kill quickly with multiple shots. This means that with any reasonable self-defense weapon, you must be prepared to shoot each attacker multiple times. As we see a trend toward home invasions and attacks involving multiple attackers, being prepared to engage 4 or 5 attackers with five rounds each is not at all excessive. It might actually be more toward the conservative side.

Ease of reloading. One reload with an AR-15 can give you 10 to 30 more rounds with standard mags, depending where you live. I don't have to handle individual rounds. If you don't have an extra mag handy, you still have a good capacity to begin with. With a double-barrel shotgun, reloading means you have to have some way to carry extra shells on you when you respond to a threat that may already be inside your home. Otherwise, you are limited to the two in the gun.

Ease of mounting a reflex sight and a light. A reflex sight is a major advantage for CQB work. It is not necessary, of course, but an advantage. A light can confuse the attacker and gives you the ability to identify the target.

Effectiveness. Especially at close range the 5.56 cartridge is a very effective killer. If you use the Mk262 ammunition (Black Hills 77 gr open tip match), it is devastating on humans, but tends to begin fragmenting in the first layer of drywall, making a miss a much smaller threat to others. If you need barrier penetration, the Black Hills TSX loads are expanding to over .45 caliber in flesh and retaining almost 100% weight after penetrating a car door. If you have seen people shot with 5.56, you won't discount its effectiveness.

More here: http://762precision.wordpress.com/artic ... e-carbine/

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:55 pm

I also have to say that a nice side-by-side shotgun handles nicer than about any other kind of shotgun, and I prefer shooting them over any other type. For quick handling inside a home, a short, light, side-by-side shotgun feels better, but the two-round capacity is the killer.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:12 pm

HD for the wife and I is a simple progression.

Handgun, me .45acp something, her .38spl Taurus 85 (her carry gun)

Shotgun, both 20 ga. Mossy 500

Rifle, me lefty AR-15, her righty AR-15

If that doesn't work, I'll just up to something in .308 or 30-06 or 45-70. If that fails, I've done all I can and it's time to call for air or arty.

Though I doubt I'd ever get beyond a handgun as most encounters of this type are blessedly short, not something ala Precinct 13.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:27 pm

While I'm not sure about a loosening of the bowels as gamekeeper suggests, I did observe the sunburn fade from a fellow's face that was pointing a .22 revolver at me, when my 12ga double peeked over the window sill of my p/u. (Long story & I don't know the SOL on it)!

But, from many personal experiences and 1st hand observations, there is NOTHING in the world as intimidating as the sound of a pump shotgun having the action operated. I'm fully in favor of the 870 pump as a 1st class short range offensive weapon. I'm not sure when the decision is made, but after a verbal instruction to "...put down your weapons/raise your hands..." there were those that complied; and on those occasions when they didn't, either myself or a partner would rack the slide on the shotgun, (carried with an empty chamber), I never had a subject that failed to comply! Maybe I was just lucky... but I'll take luck any day if everyone goes home with no new holes in 'em! And if their new "home" is a jail cell, that's good also!

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:42 pm

Here's my favorite.
Mossberg 930. Running 500+ rounds so far and no malfunctions.
Learned real quick to throw the bandolier over my shoulder. The weight of the shells pulls my aim off
wicked bad.

Anyway,
I had an experience many years ago where the mere sound of a pump 12 was enough to end the confrontation.
That was an 1897 Riot Gun and the sound and short Cyl. Barrel was enough to send the AH on the run.

jb

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:51 pm

Griff wrote:While I'm not sure about a loosening of the bowels as gamekeeper suggests, I did observe the sunburn fade from a fellow's face that was pointing a .22 revolver at me, when my 12ga double peeked over the window sill of my p/u. (Long story & I don't know the SOL on it)!

When a friend of mine was doing jumping-jacks on the hood and top of a car (caving it in quite nicely), the only thing that kept him from getting beat by the owner of the vehicle and his friend was the sound of me off to the side, racking the pump on Mr. Mossberg. (He was only doing it to demonstrate to the repeat-offender owner of the vehicle that "No Trespassing" signs are NOT needed on private property; after all, he didn't have a "No Trespassing" sign on the roof of his automobile

.)

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:36 pm

Guys----because I am always in/out etc. of the house(rain/shine/wind/snow/sleet/ whatever, and all the choices I have you know what has been my usual this last year(other than trail walking)I mean just the normal going out in the yard etc.(like at night w dog etc.)

A 31.75" (18.75" barreled)20 ga with #3 Buck--------single shot! these measurements being as of today(was prior ----37.0" OAL w/ 20" barrel)
gun in hand/another shell in same hand, two in pocket(those being sabot slugs)----bears?????

When its raining-----no big deal just wipe it down push a piece of paper towel down the tube with grandpa's old super thin hickory cane.
In the home its always broke open with one in the tube and 3 next to it(2 of #3 Buck/ 2 of Rem 260gr 1900fps Nosler Partitions)
I have grown up with single shot shotguns(M37 Winchester in particular)I can work them pretty darn fast too.

Strapped to barrel is a 2cell LED mini mag(actually camo taped)

It actually looks pretty good(camo paint job total gun with even a camo mini mag.
weighs about 4lbs. Redid the camo this evening where cut.

I feel now-----with the other-------------me be touting big guns now

But that little 20ga (2.75") still tosses 20 pellets of #3 Buck (.25" dia)at aprox. 1200fps

Its kinda like my (pickup truck gun,but at home)

Guys----this 120lb dog I got(at night like outside in the dark)OMG------god help em----------- if he sets on em!
His canines are thick and long like a black bears

with a big bite.
My buddy's mounted almost 700lb bear he has (full mount)he got. He said(good God---you dogs mouth is like his)

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:59 pm

madman4570 -- i for one like your choice...know an "old" guy who has a double barrel too...he practices with it 4 times a year, in my simple opinion and observation he is very quick with the reloads... :)

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:22 pm

sorry fellas --- the shotgun racking sound is overrated for me ---- having to do that means a round was not chambered, and for a HD weapon, puts me one step behind the 8-ball. I would much rather flick the safety to the side and be ready to go

That said - I do not have children in the house and would not keep a chambered firearm by the bed if I did

guido4198 · Post by **guido4198** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:40 am

Streetstar wrote:sorry fellas --- the shotgun racking sound is overrated for me ---- having to do that means a round was not chambered, and for a HD weapon, puts me one step behind the 8-ball. I would much rather flick the safety to the side and be ready to go

That said - I do not have children in the house and would not keep a chambered firearm by the bed if I did

Like he said...If I need to address a problem with my Ithaca M-37...a bad guy with REAL good hearing just might hear the safety, right before he finds himself explaining his life to God.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:47 am

Well y'all do what you want but my bride has been quite clear that she wants an 870 pump. Around here what momma wants momma gets. I don't have a beef with her choice. I learned a long time ago never try to use logic with a woman. They want what they want for their own reasons. I got her a 20 ga Youth Express that is just plain sweet. In fact I might have to get myself one too.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:21 am

Rusty wrote:Well y'all do what you want but my bride has been quite clear that she wants an 870 pump. Around here what momma wants momma gets.

Man, I wish more men would figure this out. Most insist on dictating women's choices in firearms, whether it is their wives, daughters, or if they are gun counter salesmen, their female customers.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:52 am

Guys------

I must be bored-----cause I wanted to actually measure the shot from the #4 Buck and 00 Buck.

Both of the pellets out of each shell measured .007 over----meaning the .24 from the #4 Buck was .246 and the 00 Buck was .336
Verified with calibrated Mitutoyo 500-169-20(actually the Cert. is still good)t and (Mitutoyo 1.0" Ceramic gauge block--060271)
Close for what I have at home! (actually one of the places I am educated from-----Mitutoyo Metrology Institute.)

So---------------I will call those .25 and .34 shot

(rounded off)

Anyhow, on one sheet of notebook paper I drew 41 of them suckers--- .247 dia balls(colored them in)and it filled the whole 8"x11" sheet of paper.(try it)

Then I did the big boys-----15 of .337 balls(another sheet)spaced them on the sheet and BOY do they look big.(and plentiful)

getting wacked with either--------------------would be like a fly getting wacked with a fly Swatter.

Ain't no worry--------------------about them staying down. (Swiss cheese) at a distance or a baseball size hole sort of close!

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:34 pm

madman4570 wrote:Guys------

Anyhow, on one sheet of notebook paper I drew 41 of them suckers--- .247 dia balls(colored them in)and it filled the whole 8"x11" sheet of paper.(try it)

Then I did the big boys-----15 of .337 balls(another sheet)spaced them on the sheet and BOY do they look big.(and plentiful)

#00 buck would be 9 pellets per 2 3/4" shell right? -- so both barrels would be 18 pellets instead of 15 (if you are using 3" or longer, then I have no idee though)

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:02 pm

Streetstar wrote:
madman4570 wrote:Guys------

Anyhow, on one sheet of notebook paper I drew 41 of them suckers--- .247 dia balls(colored them in)and it filled the whole 8"x11" sheet of paper.(try it)

Then I did the big boys-----15 of .337 balls(another sheet)spaced them on the sheet and BOY do they look big.(and plentiful)

#00 buck would be 9 pellets per 2 3/4" shell right? -- so both barrels would be 18 pellets instead of 15 (if you are using 3" or longer, then I have no idee though)

Nope------30 pellets both barrels for the 3" chamber or 24 pellets for the 2.75" chamber.
Though the Rem 2.75" stuff can be hard to get in the Remington brand----my Rem 15 pellet 00 buck 3" stuff ------I ordered more yesterday it also showed -----out of stock/no backorder ,date unknown---the lady made a call and got me 10boxes more to be shipped out next Monday. she said-----do not let that dissuade from making a call------usually they can still get stuff.
this stuff below---Though mine came to $80 for 10 5rd boxes(shipped)who cares---------want it/got it!
Here is my 15 pellet per each round stuff----------------------
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/123030 ... s-box-of-5
AND---------------------for your pleasure bro, I submit the following

Your 2.75" stuff----------------notice yours states same out of stock deal which mine shown which they pulled strings and got for me!

Tell em you want 10 boxes!

Heck bro-----your stuff is even faster---1290fps vs 1225fps

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/629487 ... s-box-of-5

also do not discount---------------------
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/177722 ... 12-pellets
Big box(25rds)for $16.99

($3.40 per 5rds) 1180fps---------------------still will do for SD w/ 00 12 pellets

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:27 am

madman4570 wrote: getting wacked with either--------------------would be like a fly getting wacked with a fly Swatter.

Ain't no worry--------------------about them staying down. (Swiss cheese) at a distance or a baseball size hole sort of close!

Don't overestimate the effectiveness of your weapon - many people have been hit by a shotgun and stayed on their feet to return fire. Remember that while you have a lot of projectiles, they are going somewhat slow and are not all that heavy. A pellet may strike something that will take him out fast, or several somethings, but just as likely all pellets could miss anything that would incapacitate him quickly. If you believe that your shotgun will always put a threat down right now and that he will stay down, you will act accordingly, and will be unprepared for him to stay on his feet or to bounce back up. If you expect to keep shooting until the threat is eliminated, you will not be surprised.

I want to have confidence in the effectiveness of my weapon, and the effectiveness of the cartridge, but I never have confidence that any shot is going to end the conflict. I expect to shoot the threat until the threat is clearly eliminated.

Back when a lot of police trained the Mozambique drill religiously, it was soon found that in simulation and in real life, officers shot a suspect three times and then dismissed that target as eliminated while engaging the next threat, moving on, clearing the area, etc. On the street, some police officers were killed or injured as a result. They had conditioned themselves through faulty training and mindset that three shots on the target meant it was dead.

Once a friend who was a surgeon who took a call from the hospital. He told us that he had to get to the hospital right away. A two-year-old boy had picked up his father's .44 magnum, placed the muzzle against his belly, and squeezed the trigger. It was aimed at an upward angle and exited higher up on his back. Our friend had little hope for his survival. When he called after the surgery, he said that he could trace the path of the bullet as it wound around everything vital. Other than a hole through him front to back, the child had no serious damage internally, not from the bullet or from the muzzle blast. He said that while you would expect a heavy .44 mag bullet to go travel straight, the bullet curved several directions before exiting. Nothing vital had any damage at all, yet no one had had any hope for him.

Always expect a threat to remain on his feet in need of a follow up shot or more.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:52 am

There was a police shooting recently (2 years ago?) where the shooter emptied a shotgun into the shootee, who received four solid center mass hits with 00 buck before going down, and on the ground was still attempting to bring his weapon into play IIRC when the shooter finished him off with his Glock and a headshot I believe.

Shotguns can be highly effective weapons, however, shoot till they STOP. That usually involves more than one round, but then again, many do not (two recent shootings here involved less than five rounds or so fired I believe, both shootees ended up taking the big dirt nap).

I by far prefer an AR with a good 5.56 load, mostly because I've spent my entire adult life carrying or training with one in some capacity. If you choose a shotgun, get one with at least a five round capacity, some spare rounds on the stock or in a bag, and PRACTICE YOUR RELOADS.

If you ever see a 3-gun or multigun competition, what gets almost any non-pro level shooter is fumbling the reload with a shotgun when it comes to adding time to their score. Tube magazines are not quick-reload friendly compared to slamming in a new mag with 15-30 rounds.

lever- believer · Post by **lever- believer** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:34 am

Warning: Unpopular Opinion to follow....

I guess sooner or later the Home Defense question always come up in every board. In one way this is a good thing as it shows we are concerned for the safety of loved ones and ourselves. In another its paranoia running wild. Its evident to many of us with some age that gun rags sell guns and in turn so does paranoia. We all talk about how horrible the crimes that take place are and indeed it is true. But society has always been bad but overall violent crime trends per person are going down in all areas outside of the large metro areas in our country.

Some may wonder where I am going and I will leave it at this. Take care of your family by chosing the appropriate place to live and raise your kids. If you chose to live in a high crime area (City sprawl) then perhaps your priorities associated with 'keeping up with the Joneses' has taken priority over common sense. I drive two hours round trip every day to my job to be able to keep my family where they are safe from the higher statistical chances of these violent crimes. But what do I know... I am just getting ready to head home and tend to the crops (Garden). Be safe, Be true and dont try to outsmart your common sense.

Oh yeah, whatever you arm yourself with.. make sure you know how to use it if the time comes. Nothing worse than someone wielding a hand held howitzer who can barely hold it upright let alone hit anything with it.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:41 am

Some good points guys----Thanks!

I wonder though these Mag loads are vastly different to regular loads.(ie 41 pellet vs 27pellet/15 pellet vs 9 pellet)

I tested them and the effect on (things)such as 9lb boned hams.(actually 8-10lbs)

In fact I shot a 9.73lb ham with my 375H&H (300 gr Triple-Shock X Hollow Point) and a 10.2 lb one with the Remington 00 Buck (15 pellet)from a open choke (18.75")barrel and that absolutely did much more damage. In fact the total Ham(was gone)the center bone(was gone)all their was was (some tiny tiny scattered pieces)
I wonder how anyone that was hit with that rd (with any decent hit)head or center chest-------could do anything but about separate.
This was at 10yds

In fact-----if one could make a proper hit with a single projectile one has to assume that same hit with that rd with be (bad news)
Since 8 years old I have grown up with break open shotguns(not bragging I am pretty darn fast with them)it is second nature.

Granted-------there are times (that just cannot be explained)but guys please try these rds and grab a couple hams.
Thankfully, I got 8 thawed hams (exceeded exp date) from a neighbor that is a manager at a grocery store. (for a case of beer)and he drinks Bush

(tried to get him something else---said(nope 30pk of cans will do)

If I had to choose getting shot---------------rather get it with the 375H&H

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:04 pm

lever- believer wrote:Warning: Unpopular Opinion to follow....
Take care of your family by chosing the appropriate place to live and raise your kids. If you chose to live in a high crime area (City sprawl) then perhaps your priorities associated with 'keeping up with the Joneses' has taken priority over common sense. I drive two hours round trip every day to my job to be able to keep my family where they are safe from the higher statistical chances of these violent crimes. But what do I know... I am just getting ready to head home and tend to the crops (Garden). Be safe, Be true and dont try to outsmart your common sense.

Oh yeah, whatever you arm yourself with.. make sure you know how to use it if the time comes.

What you are saying here is that too many people think that when they lean their AR-15 or shotguns against the wall by their beds, or slide their pistols into their holsters, that they have the magic shield. A lot of CCW classes perpetuate the myth that wearing a pistol makes you safe. People concentrate on being armed (every law-abiding citizen should be) and don't ever think about things like situational awareness, location of the home, physical security of the home, fences or other obstacles to funnel movement, how the family is arranged in the home (bedroom distribution), and teaching family members to be aware and what to look for that could indicate a possible threat.

I had a guy tell me that because I would not transfer a firearm to him illegally, my children's lives were in danger. One day my wife found him standing in our neighbor's yard watching our house. Soon I began finding piles of cigarette butts outside my children's bedroom window in the mornings. We moved to a different town. I have no problem standing my ground when necessary, but if I can make a change to prevent it from being necessary, I will.

Very few people consider the fact that while carrying a pistol, they cannot draw if the threat is able to close distance undetected and for a close threat will need to initially deal with the threat with their body in order to make room to draw. Few CCW courses have any focus on this.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:42 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
lever- believer wrote:Warning: Unpopular Opinion to follow....
Take care of your family by chosing the appropriate place to live and raise your kids. If you chose to live in a high crime area (City sprawl) then perhaps your priorities associated with 'keeping up with the Joneses' has taken priority over common sense. I drive two hours round trip every day to my job to be able to keep my family where they are safe from the higher statistical chances of these violent crimes. But what do I know... I am just getting ready to head home and tend to the crops (Garden). Be safe, Be true and dont try to outsmart your common sense.

Oh yeah, whatever you arm yourself with.. make sure you know how to use it if the time comes.
What you are saying here is that too many people think that when they lean their AR-15 or shotguns against the wall by their beds, or slide their pistols into their holsters, that they have the magic shield. A lot of CCW classes perpetuate the myth that wearing a pistol makes you safe. People concentrate on being armed (every law-abiding citizen should be) and don't ever think about things like situational awareness, location of the home, physical security of the home, fences or other obstacles to funnel movement, how the family is arranged in the home (bedroom distribution), and teaching family members to be aware and what to look for that could indicate a possible threat.

I had a guy tell me that because I would not transfer a firearm to him illegally, my children's lives were in danger. One day my wife found him standing in our neighbor's yard watching our house. Soon I began finding piles of cigarette butts outside my children's bedroom window in the mornings. We moved to a different town. I have no problem standing my ground when necessary, but if I can make a change to prevent it from being necessary, I will.

Very few people consider the fact that while carrying a pistol, they cannot draw if the threat is able to close distance undetected and for a close threat will need to initially deal with the threat with their body in order to make room to draw. Few CCW courses have any focus on this.

7.62---------------You did the right thing with that gun transfer deal!
The move???-----I hope it was 100% for a different reason than that wacko.
I have found----that while deeply respecting others(being a nice guy)I also have found that you have to (be a male pride lion) by that I mean people have to be able to look at you and know you are a serious dude! You can't just move every time some loon wants to give you grief. 99.99999% of people that pray on others are chicken shi##s. Some are nuts but even the nuts know-----when a dude is a serious dude(and with a family to protect/you gotta be a serious dude)
Too many people these days gang up and try to feed on people that they think they can intimidate. Going around trying to equal one serious dude.Even then when sh## comes down they usually about wet themselves.(look at each other about to cry)

If you didn't want to man up on that loon------could have spent $100 and bought a Blackout Game Cam(undetectable)and got the loon on video doing his nut stuff.Course this would be after having you property posted and a call already made to LEO(documented).

Can't move because of some nut-----------------------only move because its the right thing cause their is a lot of nuts.
Anything else-----------------------couldn't even respect myself!

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:53 pm

madman4570 wrote:Some good points guys----Thanks!

I tested them and the effect on (things)such as 9lb boned hams.(actually 8-10lbs)

In fact I shot a 9.73lb ham with my 375H&H (300 gr Triple-Shock X Hollow Point) and a 10.2 lb one with the Remington 00 Buck (15 pellet)from a open choke (18.75")barrel and that absolutely did much more damage. In fact the total Ham(was gone)the center bone(was gone)all their was was (some tiny tiny scattered pieces)
I wonder how anyone that was hit with that rd (with any decent hit)head or center chest-------could do anything but about separate.
This was at 10yds

Again, a ham is not a person, and a better test is things like compilations of real-world shooting results, etc. Some things to think about is the fact that a ham is cut off at both ends, so may come apart easier. Was the ham smoked or cooked? What happens to a ham is nothing like what would happen to a human thorax, for example, or an abdomen. I have seen many photos of people who have been hit with buckshot, and many die very quickly, but many survive, even when being shot at close range.

Keep in mind that shotguns sometimes produce very ugly superficial devastation, yet do not cause death or a quick death. On the other hand, sometimes one pellet can hit a person in the right place and kill that person almost instantly. I read once about a LE shooting in which a criminal took every pellet but one from a 12 gauge and survived, yet the one errant pellet struck and killed a bystander.

If you look at the wound channels created by buckshot pellets, they tend to be thin holes just large enough for the pellet to squeeze through, with little to no damage surrounding the path of the pellet. What you are hoping for is that a pellet, or better yet, a number of pellets will hit parts of the body that will cause quick bleeding to deprive the brain of blood and oxygen, or to disrupt the central nervous system so that the brain no longer controls the body (brain or spine). This is what is required for a quick death.

With the Mk262 77gr OTM bullet from a 5.56, the diameter of the projectile is no larger than buckshot but it is moving MUCH faster, penetrates well, but fragments violently, creating a lot of damage where it counts, and tends to cause very fast blood loss. It may be only one projectile, but it has proven itself as a superior killer. Still, there is no guarantee that any shot with that bullet will kill or even slow an attacker, so I have to be prepared to fire again, just as I would be if it was a .308, .375 H&H, .45-70, or a 12 gauge. The advantage I have with the 5.56 AR is that I have the ability to place one projectile exactly where I want it, and follow up with multiple shots very quickly. Reloads are easier and more positive, and no matter how much I train with either system, reloading with a magazine will always be more positive for me than reloading single shells in a shotgun. (This is to explain my choice in a home defense weapon - I don't expect everyone to choose the same.)

Keep in mind that with your example of the .375 H&H, if it destroyed the ham, which is only a few inches thick, I would consider it totally unfit for its intended purpose, which is deep penetration in dangerous game. The .375 H&H should drill a hole through the ham - a superficial wound on a dangerous animal is not a good thing, nor is a superficial wound on a dangerous human a good thing.

Actual real-world results are being studied more and more today and often disprove what we always thought we knew about terminal ballistics.

The point I am trying to make is that a shotgun is a great weapon, and if it is what you prefer for home defense, that is fine. But to be so sure that a single shot from a shotgun is going to immediately kill any threat is to set yourself up to be unprepared for a threat that does not go down with the first shot.

No matter what weapon you use, don't be overconfident in its ability to kill.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:36 pm

madman4570 wrote:99.99999% of people that pray on others are chicken shi##s. Some are nuts but even the nuts know-----when a dude is a serious dude(and with a family to protect/you gotta be a serious dude)
Too many people these days gang up and try to feed on people that they think they can intimidate.
If you didn't want to man up on that loon------could have spent $100 and bought a Blackout Game Cam(undetectable)and got the loon on video doing his nut stuff.Course this would be after having you property posted and a call already made to LEO(documented).

Can't move because of some nut-----------------------only move because its the right thing cause their is a lot of nuts.
Anything else-----------------------couldn't even respect myself!

I have no need to prove anything to myself or anyone else. I stood up to this guy on many occasions, and I believe in standing and fighting for what is mine, or for what is yours, or simply for what is right. On the other hand, I have no shame in removing my family from a dangerous situation. The guy does not drive (legally) and was within easy walking distance of where we lived. There were other reasons for the move as well, and where we are now is more defendable.
I am confident in my ability to take that guy out if necessary, but I do not want it to become necessary. I confident that I am better than he is in every way if it came to a fight, but being better sometimes makes the difference, and sometimes the other guy might just get lucky. If he misses, then who knows where his bullets would go, or who they might stop in. If he just opened fire on the house in the middle of the night, which would be his style, most likely, then I could kill him, but who else might get hit in the mean time. I will stand my ground when necessary, but I won't let my pride get in the way of my family's safety.

I was Cavalry. I am less of a "hold this hill at all costs" kind of a guy than a "maneuver to a position that puts the enemy at a disadvantage and take him out on our terms" kind of guy.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:42 pm

That particular ham was 15" thick.
It was uncooked/cured/smoked with a sell by date 2 days left on it/them.
The pellet deal(because they are separated)though being aprox 900grs @ 1220fps)combined makes me remember back to my Physics classes.
Kinda like the difference of a single railroad car and the whole train----in regards to energy dissipation.
See below with just the little 2.75" 9 pellet guy--------jumping behind a car door----------?????-----need a big cork to plug up that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FekDfi_ceis

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:52 pm

IMO, a pelvis shot is the best shot...takes out the carriage, and disrupts the CNS. This is the shot when I have my 12ga OO on hand....Second best is Head Shot....Third, center of mass. Be advised that center of mass is not a fail safe OSK... Regardless of anything, one should keep firing until the threat is eliminated...Sometimes two is not enough...

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:56 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_XrsPcE7J4

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:59 pm

madman4570 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_XrsPcE7J4

Nice

I sure hope he could legally keep both of them....

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:00 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui8F1VIPf8w

Blaine--------------------------game you might like to play-------(bluff) isn't that teddy cute!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6GcWhlGF3o
That's precious?

No sign of messed pants (guy is one cool cat)

How bout tag----????????????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WwK_1SFE_8

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:57 pm

BlaineG wrote: IMO, a pelvis shot is the best shot...takes out the carriage, and disrupts the CNS. This is the shot when I have my 12ga OO on hand.

I was trained as a sniper to take a pelvic shot any time the target was wearing body armor, unless close for a head shot. Before that, I never heard anyone talk about pelvic shots. With a shotgun a pelvic shot is an excellent kill shot, with a lot of of important arteries concentrated in and branching though the pelvis, plus a vital part of the skeletal structure that can easily be destroyed, depriving the threat of mobility. 00 Buck to the pelvis can be pretty devastating and can cause very fast bleeding.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:18 pm

madman4570 wrote:That particular ham was 15" thick.
The pellet deal(because they are separated)though being aprox 900grs @ 1220fps)combined makes me remember back to my Physics classes.
Kinda like the difference of a single railroad car and the whole train----in regards to energy dissipation.

Energy dissipation has little bearing on the stopping ability of any small arms projectile, especially with pistol cartridges or shotgun pellets.

Look at the designer frangibles that are supposed to kill through "energy dump." Real-world shootings by both LE and criminals using that type of bullet have proven that they are not effective killers, no matter how big and bloody the surface wound is.

You will eliminate a threat one of two ways: disrupt his central nervous system (brain or spine), or cause him to leak red stuff really fast to prevent blood and oxygen from reaching his brain.

Of course, many times the threat can be dealt with by causing him to loose interest due to the threat of punching holes in his body, or the pain and fear caused by the first hole punched in him, but we don't count on that.

For those who believe in energy dissipation as a killing factor, please supply some scientific proof. I have not seen it yet, and many attempts to prove it have gone further toward disproving it than anything.

To effectively kill, a center mass shot must penetrate deep enough and hit the right things to cause fast bleeding. Energy dump is not really a factor in this, according to any scientific research to date. With higher velocity (rifle cartridges) there does tend to be more extensive tissue damage around the bullet path, but as a killing mechanism, this is still valuable only in that it can cause more and faster bleeding.

Now again, the point I am making is that you must always be ready to engage the target again - you cannot depend on any particular weapon to always kill with one shot, or even two. A person shot through the heart can remain coherent and functional for long enough to get a couple shots off.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:27 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
BlaineG wrote: IMO, a pelvis shot is the best shot...takes out the carriage, and disrupts the CNS. This is the shot when I have my 12ga OO on hand.
I was trained as a sniper to take a pelvic shot any time the target was wearing body armor, unless close for a head shot. Before that, I never heard anyone talk about pelvic shots. With a shotgun a pelvic shot is an excellent kill shot, with a lot of of important arteries concentrated in and branching though the pelvis, plus a vital part of the skeletal structure that can easily be destroyed, depriving the threat of mobility. 00 Buck to the pelvis can be pretty devastating and can cause very fast bleeding.

Even if you hit low, you've paralyzed the goblin with the loss of his package, and more than likely hit the femoral artery...Awww...Poor Goblin...

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:45 pm

Remington 870 12 gauge. 18" barrell full magazine. Load it with whatever u like.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:58 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
madman4570 wrote:. A person shot through the heart can remain coherent and functional for long enough to get a couple shots off.

Up to , or at least 14 seconds -- is what I recall from my military training ---- An average guy can likely get off 10 shots in that time frame --- and they don't have to be well -aimed to hit and hurt

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Load it with effective ammunition (buckshot, preferably Federal Flite Control).

Birdshot makes messy surface wounds.....having seen a guy blow his own face off and NOT kill himself with a contact shot. And another guy shoot a guy in the arm and leg, aiming for chest, both were survivable and had the victim been armed, Shotgun Guy would have been dead.

There is considerably more crime around than people think. Talk to cops. I spend most of my day getting very definite briefings on just what's going on in my area regarding drugs, homicides, etc regularly. Most people have no clue.

As to time to die... review the 1986 Miami shootout. Matix I believe? Took a round in the heart and remained functional for almost a minute, killing or wounding several more agents. He still had oxygen going to his brain and his muscles still worked as he bled out internally.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:49 am

Streetstar wrote:
7.62 Precision wrote:
madman4570 wrote:. A person shot through the heart can remain coherent and functional for long enough to get a couple shots off.

Up to , or at least 14 seconds -- is what I recall from my military training ---- An average guy can likely get off 10 shots in that time frame --- and they don't have to be well -aimed to hit and hurt

Don't think I wrote above thing ??????

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:06 pm

UPS just pulled up--------------more of that Mag (41 & 15 pellet stuff)------boy them shells sure be heavy!
UPS guy said----------------ya got some good stuff

??????????

Oh well----------------Sweet!

Just for you guys will load some in my Browning BPS (w/short buck barrel)keeping that handy too.