Levers in Westerns - 92 or 94 ?

[pwl44m]

I've been watching a few Westerns of late for lack of something else to do in this Heat. I have been really looking closely at what I always assumed (that word again) they were 94s. But upon a closer look or just paying more attention the majority are in fact 92s from what I can tell. I would suppose They could get by with less powder. It is just something that has caught My eye. What do U see, 92s or 94s ?
And to go along with another post, I saw a Guy shoot at Mr. Dillon with a Six Shooter in rapid succession "not" fanning using only His right hand, it sounded like a 45 auto. Am I gonna quit watchin ? Heck No !! And I aint complainin.
Perry

[Buck Elliott]

Most of what you are seeing on film are indeed Model 1892 Winchesters, with a few model 1873s thrown in, here and there.. It may be more rare to see the odd 1894 Marlin, on occasion..

The studios used the anachronistic '92s as "generic" leverguns, to stand in for any and all the lever actions of the "Old West.."

Also, like their precursors, the '92s fired what some folks call "pistol-caliber" ammunition, although the cartridges were introduced as "rifle" rounds.. It had nothing to do with using less powder, but everything to do with commonality and interchangability of ammunition, just as in the Old Days...

[Hagler]

Perry,

Part of the answer is that 5-in-1 Blanks were used in many of those movies & TV shows (from Wikipedia):

5-in-1 Blanks can be used in firearms chambered for the .38-40 Winchester, .44-40 Winchester, and .45 Colt because, although the bores of the firearms differ in diameter, the chambers (which hold the cartridge in place) are of similar shape. They were called a 5-in-1 Blanks because, when they were originally introduced, there were no .45 Colt rifles, as such they could be fired in five different firearms commonly used in Hollywood Westerns: .38-40 and .44-40 Winchester rifles and .38-40, .44-40 and .45 Colt revolvers.

5-in-1 blanks are also called a 3-in-1 blanks for the three calibers .38-40, .44-40 and .45 Colt that they are fired from.

http://a-drifting-cowboy.blogspot.com/2 ... m-ups.html

The 5-in-1 was a tapered rimmed case, filler was flash powder. Could be shot from a 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, etc. Made supply on the movie set easier, made a better flash and bang for the camera.

Shawn

[Buck Elliott]

5-in-1 Blanks were not the reason... They were the Prop-man's solution...

[pwl44m]

That explains a lot, I just never really paid any attention to it.
I just watched Silverado with Henrys sounding like Cannons as did most of the other Guns. Some mighty good shooting and some mighty Bad shooting when needed.
Just keep on watchin.
Perry

[Old Savage]

"Most of what you are seeing on film are indeed Model 1892 Winchesters, with a few model 1873s thrown in, here and there." My thought exactly.

[Model 52B]

The Model 92 was not discontinued until 1945, so it was still readily available in shootable condition at reasonable prices in the 1950's for studio use - much more so than the Model 1873. That in a nutshell is why the Model 92 was so common in film and television.

However, beginning in the mid 1950's a couple things happened - the Model 92 started to become popular for conversion to .357 magnum or .44 magnum as a companion piece for the new Ruger Blackhawk, and demand for pistol class caliber lever guns increased due to the prevalence of western movies and television shows, so the supply of shootable Model 92s at reasonable prices dried up.

Similarly, the Colt SAA was not discontinued until 1941, but again by the mid 1950s it was also in high demand due in large part to it's exposure in western movies and television shows.

The end results were the second generation Colt SAA in 1956 and the creation of companies like EMF and Navy Arms to import and/or manufacture replicas of the Model 1873, Model 1892 and Colt SAA.

[Rusty]

We have a station here locally that calls it's self "Me TV" where they play a lot of old TV shows from the past, The Rifleman, Daniel Boone, The Big Valley, and such. I had it on one day, not really paying much attention while the Big Valley was on. I saw one of the players there hefting a a 336 Marlin. I guess they used what they could get in a pinch.

[gak]

The Big Valley was one of the worst "offenders" with the Marlins which predominated on many episodes. Why is that any worse than the misplaced 92s and some Win 94s? The overtly modern white line flat shotgun-style butt plates and front barrel band located further off the muzzle than 19th Century carbines. The 92s at least had those earlier carbine features (curved butt, barrel band location) as well as ubiquitous saddle ring - all similar to or suggestive of the more period correct 66s and 73s - lending them (better) "that western look." I've seen Win 94s used several times. Not so bad when pre wars were used with the above 92 features (they shared buttstocks and forends), but sometimes a later type (1930s to present) snuck in with the more modern tell-tale carbine features.

[Hagler]

Perry,

There were also "Hollywood Henrys" in some of those old movies & TV shows. Bonanza used a lot of them. Basically, the Hollywood Henry was a Winchster 92 rifle (with octagon barrel), that had the forend removed from it. From the right camera angles, they look like an 1860 henry rifle. Discerning viewers will notice the loading gate, though.

I believe that Stembridge Gunworks was the big dog in town, back then. I read that they were started with the coaxing of Cecil B. Demille. Stembridge probably supplied Bonanza, The Rifleman, and nearly evey other Fifties & Sixties Western on television with guns. Stembridge was the gun supplier for many Hollywood films, too.

Shawn

[pwl44m]

Silverado definitely employed Henrys and Danny Glover could wield that Gun with precision and power. His Daddy (in the movie) carried one too. He told a Guy "have You ever seen what a pair of Henrys in the right hands can do ?" I think I even picked out a 73 or 2. This was the remake of the original Silverado filmed in 1985. I don't recall ever seeing the original, was it any better or worse ?
Perry

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Perry,

Part of the answer is that 5-in-1 Blanks were used in many of those movies & TV shows (from Wikipedia):

5-in-1 Blanks can be used in firearms chambered for the .38-40 Winchester, .44-40 Winchester, and .45 Colt because, although the bores of the firearms differ in diameter, the chambers (which hold the cartridge in place) are of similar shape. They were called a 5-in-1 Blanks because, when they were originally introduced, there were no .45 Colt rifles, as such they could be fired in five different firearms commonly used in Hollywood Westerns: .38-40 and .44-40 Winchester rifles and .38-40, .44-40 and .45 Colt revolvers.

5-in-1 blanks are also called a 3-in-1 blanks for the three calibers .38-40, .44-40 and .45 Colt that they are fired from.

http://a-drifting-cowboy.blogspot.com/2 ... m-ups.html

The 5-in-1 was a tapered rimmed case, filler was flash powder. Could be shot from a 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, etc. Made supply on the movie set easier, made a better flash and bang for the camera.

Shawn

I agree. The 5 in 1 blanks were the main reason you see the 92's and occasionally a 73. Even the Henry's you saw were prop guns made up from 92.
This is the Hollywood Henry I build for the SASS "B" Western shooters that want something different.

[pwl44m]

I understand what U Guys r saying but the Henry used by Danny had the tell tale thumb lever for the mag follower, and it seemed that it was always full. I'll admit that I wasn't looking for a loading gate but don't think there was one. It was probably an Uberti.
Perry

[3leggedturtle]

I still like the left handed M92 John Wayne use in Wagon Train. ( I think ) Had the loading port on the left side.

Then there was the Left-handed SMLE in a Jungle Book Type movie about a tiger in India.
Personaly I wish I could shoot my scoped rifles half as good as the hero and villain does with a pistol

[Chuck 100 yd]

The Big Valley used Marlin 336`s IIRC maybe they were 1894`s. It has been a long time since I have seen an episode.

[Bridger158]

I'm glad you guys noticed the 336s on Big Valley. I get MeTv also and have been noticing them and wondered if y'all had.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I understand what U Guys r saying but the Henry used by Danny had the tell tale thumb lever for the mag follower, and it seemed that it was always full. I'll admit that I wasn't looking for a loading gate but don't think there was one. It was probably an Uberti.
Perry

If it was the 1985 remake I'm betting it was the Uberti, too.

[Griff]

I understand what U Guys r saying but the Henry used by Danny had the tell tale thumb lever for the mag follower, and it seemed that it was always full. I'll admit that I wasn't looking for a loading gate but don't think there was one. It was probably an Uberti.
Perry

If it was the 1985 remake I'm betting it was the Uberti, too.

Silverado with Danny Glover and Kevin Costner was pretty good about their guns. That link will give you a LOT of info on what guns were used in certain movies. Far from complete, but what they have is pretty interesting.

[pwl44m]

Neat read Griff, I stand corrected, Glover was using a mock Henry but His Fathers was indeed a Henry used by Him in other scenes.
Griff , where did U find that ? other than "Google is Ur friend".
Perry

[Griff]

Neat read Griff, I stand corrected, Glover was using a mock Henry but His Fathers was indeed a Henry used by Him in other scenes.
Griff , where did U find that ? other than "Google is Ur friend".
Perry

In another time & place it was referenced in regards to another movie & I bookmarked it.

[Ji in Hawaii]

I believe it was on "Return to Lonesome Dove" (not half as good as the original) the character played by William Peterson (Captain Gideon Walker) is in a shootout scene using a model 94AE complete with the gawdawful hammerblock safety in the receiver.

[CaptainFinn]

In Night at the Museum, Teddy Roosevelt ( Robin Williams) carries a Winchester 94--flat buttplate, barrel ramp/hood and QD swivels--with his Rough Rider regalia.

[Hagler]

[pwl44m]

That's deff a mock Henry, or is it a Yellow Boy ? Funny the things U just pass right on by. My Wife says I'm so "Negative" because I pick things out, caint hep it.
Perry

[gak]

The 94 AE in Return to Lonesome Dove is the worst I've heard to date--really no excuse with some 3 million Pre 64s out there for at least a little better fakery, not to mention a gazillion Rossi 92s--not even getting into the more period correct Ubertis. The 94AE story even beats the whiteline-butt Marlins on Big Valley.

[BruceB]

In some of the "Have Gun, Will Travel" episodes, Paladin (Richard Boone) carries and uses a Marlin 1894 with an octagonal "trapper" length barrel.

[cas]

This thread reminded me that I ran across my Horse Soldiers photo again.

Colt SAA's (or Great Westerns) with "loading levers" crudely welded on.

[markinalpine]

Here are a couple of screen snaps from 1962's "Sergeants 3" which was supposed to have taken place in 1870:

sergeants 3 snap 2.png

Pictures aren't the greatest, but they are most likely 1892s.

Mark

[Alan Wood]

We have a station here locally that calls it's self "Me TV" where they play a lot of old TV shows from the past, The Rifleman, Daniel Boone, The Big Valley, and such. I had it on one day, not really paying much attention while the Big Valley was on. I saw one of the players there hefting a a 336 Marlin. I guess they used what they could get in a pinch.

While that is a local station the reality is that ME TV is a network that shows older network reruns. From what I have seen in Sacramento it's pretty decent in it's selection. Mostly early 60's stuff to early 70's but still pretty good!

[Charles]

Historical inaccuracy about firearms does not bother me, as most of the others parts of the films are also historically inaccurate. I have yet to see one that I felt was an accurate representation of life in the Western United States during the 1865 - 1900 period. They are what they are, films put together to make money by getting 20th and now 21st. Century people to watch. I doubt you could sell tickets to watch real life during that time.

As a whole, the big cities of 2013 are far more violent and drama filled today than Dodge, Abilene, Tombstone or any other small town were in 1873.

[Ji in Hawaii]

In in 1965 movie "Shenandoah" staring James Stewart which takes place during the US Civil War the Union troops are seen armed with Trapdoor Springfields, used to drive my dad nuts!

[Old Savage]

Buck Elliot

Also, like their precursors, the '92s fired what some folks call "pistol-caliber" ammunition, although the cartridges were introduced as "rifle" rounds..

That explains a lot in firearms development.

[Griff]

Buck Elliot

Also, like their precursors, the '92s fired what some folks call "pistol-caliber" ammunition, although the cartridges were introduced as "rifle" rounds..

That explains a lot in firearms development.

IIRC, the Marliln 1881 was the frst repeating rifle that handled what we think of as "rifle" cartridges in a relatively short action, much shorter than the Winchester 1876. (Not including the Spencer with its unique .56-56 cartridge).