.45 colt, Rossi 92

[theozzman]

Howdy friends.

My name is Mark (theozzman) and I'm from Australia, downunder. I am a western action shooter, collector of all guns, and am planning on getting into long range centrefire and IPSC.

I have an issue/question about my beautiful, smooth, reliable functioning Rossi M92 in .45 colt. I use it for western action, and it's fine for hitting our steel plates out to 40-50m. I use light loads of 4.5g AS30 with a 250g hard cast RNFP (AS30=double base shotgun powder) and recently made some loads of AR2205 with the same projectile. AR2205, is rebranded by Hodgon as H4227. That may have changed but last I heard that was the deal.

The rilfe is a 24 inch half round half octagonal, in very good condition, looked after, shiny bore with good rifling, no pits/scratches etc. I bought it second hand.

Anyway, the light loads always burned dirty, so I tried them on paper at 25m. Accuracy was terrible. Near dinner plate size groups, from a rest. Another shooter tried my rifle, and had the same result. I then tried the heavy AR2205 20g loads with the 250g RNFP. The result was slightly tighter, but still very very poor. I would expect an inch or so at 25m. Also, the AR2205 loads burned very dirty, with lots of unburned powder in the barrel. I am assuming the powder is too slow. And in the case of the light AS30 loads, they need more powder as they are too light. The crimps are both tight...I am still a begginner reloader though.

My question is this; Where should I progress from here? Is there a possible issue with my rifle that may be the cause? I have been racking my brain, trying to figure out what it could be. I plan to continue load development, trying copper plated projectiles, different powders etc. So far I havent found any talk of accuracy problems with the 92, so would I be right assuming I need to find a load it likes?

I sincerely appreciate any help people may be able to offer, and I apologise in advance for spelling/gramatical errors, as I am very tired right now.

[M. M. Wright]

Slug the barrel to see if the bullets you are using are big enough to fill the grooves. Also look at the muzzle to see if it has any dings or dents or just re-crown. I use a steel ball and valve grinding compound to lap the crown. Oh yeah, the steel ball has a stem soldered to it to fit in a drill motor. You are right, there has to be a reason that rifle is not shooting little bitty groups at 25m. Who cast your bullets? Are they shiny or frosty looking? Is you barrel leaded up? Frosty look just in front of the chamber.

[jh45gun]

Could be the loads are too light to upset the bullet in the bore to engage the rifleing? You say they are hard cast how hard cast? What is your alloy? If you cannot scratch the bullet with your thumb nail it is too hard. I cast out of straight Wheel Weights and have no issues at all with my 252 grain cast bullets.

[J Miller]

Mark,

To add a bit to what has been said, 4227 is one of those powders that needs pressure to start burning clean. Your load with a 250gr bullet is probably quite light. I've used that powder with 250gr jacketed bullets at max (Ruger - T/C ) level loads and they worked good.
When I used it with cast bullets they weighed in at 300grs + and worked well.

For lighter 250 to 265gr cast bullets I use something along the lines of Alliant 2400 for my heavier loads and Unique for my regular loads. I don't know what you have that's comparable to those, but it's worth a bit of research.

Joe

[Doc.Holliday]

Gidday Gidday Mate
I have a Rossi 92 Trapper in 45 colt , a Rossi Ranch Hand in 45 colt and 2 Winchester 94's in 45 Colt. One of the first powders I used in these was IMR 4227 magnum primers and 250 grain bullets both Hornady XTP and cast # 2 sized .454
I firmly believe in cast being .002 over bore. The Winchesters have tighter bores and also much smoother.
Maybe lap your bore- easy to do.
Anyway, I went from 20 to 24 grains with this 4227 powder and a good firm crimp. At 21.5 grains I got my best accuracy and enough speed and energy to put down anything I cared to hunt in Northern Canada.
From my minimum to my maximum loads, different primer brands and various crimps , I could NEVER get away from the left over granules in the bore with 4227
After trying too many powders I finally settled on Power Pistol powder at 11.1 grains and I got great velocity and energy, great accuracy and a clean bore.
As a bonus I use half the powder,
I was recently gifted some 800X and Blue Dot and with Ken Waters pet loads and his success with these two I am sure I can duplicate his results.
I have settled on Red Dot powder for my plinking loads which are a tad beefier than the original Colt 45 load.

Good Luck
Respectfully
Doc.

[1894c]

theozzman -- HELLO and welcome...good advise so far others might chime in to help you out... :)

[Old Savage]

My bore is oversize and will do what yours did with .451 bullets - the larger the better accuracy wise. Haven't slugged it.

[JerryB]

Welcome to a great forum, I have a 20 inch Hartford 92 (Rossi) in .45 Colt that I load with Unique and get good accuracy. I use the same load for the carbine and my 1957 Colt SAA 5 1/2 inch .45 if you can get Unique try it.

[ollogger]

Hello & Welcome
I shoot a 454 dia. cast in mine, on a good day its bout 2in. at 50 yards
thats with any powder ive put in it. unique, blue dot, 4227, LiL Gun, H110 & Reloader 7


ollogger

[missionary5155]

Greetings theozzman and Welcome about the place. I am on the other side of the big blue up high in Peru. Everyone should live on the Rim for awhile.
Lead bullets(or Boolits) need special attention. If they are undersized in diameter and you are using smokeless powder you are starting out badly. Bullets are pistons. They need to seal hot gasses to the rear. Lead pistons that are too small are going to rattle down the barrel skipping and twisting and exiting in whichever direction the nose ends up pointing. Plus hot gasses are going to go burning past one side or another causing havoc.
Been shooting and making castbullets many years now as that is what my dad did. In all friearms the throat area is the key. The bullet nose needs to be supported headed straight into the rifling (fat enough). The bullet base needs to be able to seal the gasses to the rear (again fat enough). Too small at either end of the bullet and things are not going to be accurate.
Problem with lever guns is that you are restricted to overall cartrige length. That is usually to short to permit the lead bullet to be seated out far enough to be started into the rifling (like a single shot). So you need a bullet that is a pecfect fit for that chamber if you want clover leaf accuracy.
So you have to do the research. Or buy expensive factory jacketed things that will only shoot a little better But will leave copper fouling all down the barrel.
Castboolits is a site dedicated to castbullet making and shooting. There is no reason that a reasonably well made rifle will not shoot castboolits accurately and without leading. You just need to follow the right path and play by the lead bullet rules.
Mike in Peru

[piller]

Greetings. It would seem that you have been given several good pieces of advice. I have a Rossi in another caliber, and it likes the bullets to be pushed hard enough to firmly upset them to seal the bore. I tried to load them down for fun, and the accuracy just went bad. Factory load pressure brought the accuracy right back to where it should be. From all I have heard, Rossi seems to leave the barrel slightly oversized.

[theozzman]

Thanks guys! The best advice anyone has given me! I suspect I will need to try .454 projectiles.

I appreciate the help, and look forward to learning here

[jh45gun]

Thanks guys! The best advice anyone has given me! I suspect I will need to try .454 projectiles.

I appreciate the help, and look forward to learning here

Well my Rossi Ranch Hand which is a pistol style Rossi 92 shoots the .452 bullets just fine. But I am shooting them with the standard load of 8 grains of Unique. Try a heavier powder charge before changing bullet sizes. This load is not a stout load but probably has more oomph than your cowboy type loads.
So it has enough to fill the bore nicely.

[flightsimmer]

I have a barrel that checked out perfect but wouldn't shoot acceptable groups at all with my properly sized hard cast lead bullets.
I finally got some jacketed bullets of the proper size and it now shoots one hole groups at 25 yds. so I'm thinking it was the bullet I was casting.
Now I know for a fact that I get better accuracy from cast lead bullets with gas checks so that is also something to consider and bevel based cast lead bullets also seem to do much better than flat based cast lead bullets so keep trying, that's just part of the fun of shooting.

[jd45]

flightsimmer, that is really interesting what you said about bevel-based doing better than flat-based, cause I was just about to recommend staying AWAY from bevel-based due to gas-cutting! Imagine that! BTW, if you're doin one hole @ 25, do you think she'll do 1" @ 50? And what about 100? It oughta be fun to find out, don'tcha think? jd45

[Griff]

and Welcome to THE Forum from Texas! That big ol' .45Colt case likes Black Powder! It don't need no stinkin' heathen smoke-less powders!

But.... when I do use smokeless, I like either RedDot or Clays, preferrably the RedDot when I can find it, (recently it's proven it's popularity by its absense from shelving)! I use cast bullet weights of 160 up to 225 with stops at 180, 185 & 200 in between... every single one of them is sized to .452. I shoot them from 3 different rifles and 4 different handguns, by 4 different makers, Uberti, Armi San Marco, Colt and Rossi. The only bullet I can't shoot with accuracy from a rifle is the LBT 185gr. WFN cast. It is just so short that it tumbles out of a long barrel, yet will shoot ragged one-hole groups @ 15 yards out of a 4-¾" Colt SAA. Just going up to the 200RFN and the bullets are fine from the rifles. A key to good consistent loads on the light side for CAS is a good solid crimp. You don't need a heavy bullet, so the crimp acts to hold the bullet in place in order to get the pressure up into clean burning range. Bullet hardness also plays a factor, I used to love HARD bullets, driven FAST! But, since I got into cowboy action about 28 years ago, I've softened up some... I tend to use bullets that are straight wheel weights instead of 6:1 mix with linotype... being as linotype is so MUCH more scarce now that it was even 10 years ago, this is a good thing. Also, cast bullets in the 12-15Bhn range are now considered HardCast... whereas it seems just a few short years ago, it was 18Bhn. But, that may be just my thinkin' on the subject of hardness.

For my Cowboy Action loads, I use the same powder charge regardless of bullet inside that range of weights.

Take a .457 pure lead round ball and drive it thru your bore with a brass rod & muzzle protector to get an accurate measurement of your bore. This will provide you the information YOU need in an absolute number instead of "by guess or by golly" and a lot of experimenting. Cast bullets need to be between .001" and .002" larger than the groove diameter. This will be the larger of the two dimensions on your slug after you get it thru the bore of your rifle. So, if your groove diameter is .451", a .452" is the smallest cast bullet you should be using. A pure lead bullet of .451" would work with a BP charge behind it, or with a smokeless load that had a real firm crimp and moderate to above moderate pressure to help it "bump up" to fill the groove diameter.

Another factor to consider is the lube carrying capacity of your bullet. That little 185WFN of mine has a tiny little lube groove that just doesn't carry enough lube to get the bullet all the way thru a 20" or 24" barrel without running out of lube. It still doesn't leave lead, as they're hard enough not to... Hence the lack of accuracy in a rifle. And, with that accuracy loss, they're just a no-go proposition. You don't say if you're casting your own, or buying bullets, but talk with the caster (if possible) to see what lubes they're using, and what might be available that better suited to use in a rifle.

I have a barrel that checked out perfect but wouldn't shoot acceptable groups at all with my properly sized hard cast lead bullets.
I finally got some jacketed bullets of the proper size and it now shoots one hole groups at 25 yds. so I'm thinking it was the bullet I was casting.
Now I know for a fact that I get better accuracy from cast lead bullets with gas checks so that is also something to consider and bevel based cast lead bullets also seem to do much better than flat based cast lead bullets so keep trying, that's just part of the fun of shooting.

Can't use gas-checked bullets in cowboy action (except for long range side matches where the possibility of a gas-check bouncing back is greatly reduced). My experience in a rifle is that bevel based cast bullets are also not as accurate as flat based bullets. Cast BB bullets are great in semi-autos where they aid in starting the bullet in the case without any belling of the case mouth, but even then, I've found flat bases are better for accuracy, (but we are talking minute drops in accuracy), and bevel bases are far easier to load on a progressive. Flightsimmer, check out different lubes for your cast. I have 3 different lubes I use for different bullets. And with only 2 lubri-sizers it's a real pain to change lubes. So the Thompson's Bear Cold lube I used to use has been cut to almost zilch. The two I now use for most all my shooting needs, including cowboy action, are Lyman's Alox (the black stuff), and SPG for all my BP loads. Even for my cast .30-30s and smokeless .40-90SBN long range loads I use Alox.

[Doc.Holliday]

+1 Griff on your post.
I as well prefer Flat base bullets. the Lyman M die has served me well in starting them.

Doc.

[gundownunder]

Dinner plate size groups at 25 sounds like it could be more than just the wrong load. As already put forward by others, check the crown and slug the bore, also make sure you don't have a loose sight or anything like that.
If the bullets you are using are Hawkesbury or Westcast then they will be pretty hard and you won't get them to bump up without a heck of a stout load.
2205 is a dirty powder, you need a good crimp, and really have to get pressures up there to get a clean burn, I prefer 2400 in my 357 for that reason. Have you got any AP70 on hand, it will give you a bit more oomph than AS30 and I know a couple of 45 shooters here in WA who use it very successfully in their Marlin Cowboys. You could also try Trailboss for low loads and as mentioned, 2400 for high end loads.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

This 45lc rifles and the severe blowback discussion comes up almost monthly either on the SASS WIRE or here on the LEVERGUNS.COM forum . Usually it is about the down loaded CAS ammo.
The reason the problem is more common with the 45lc rifle is because the makers all use the maximum SAMMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition. Manufacturers’ Institute) specs when they ream the chambers for the gun. They do this so the gun will more likely cycle with a broad spectrum of ammo's. This is why semi-auto pistol with match grade guns are finicky about the ammo they will run. The match grade chambers are tight.

I did warranty work for EMF. They imported the Rossi M92 as well. Over the years the EMF folks had me do chamber cast on various rifles because the customer insisted the chambers were bad. One feller bought an EMF 92 and before he ever shot it sent it to Doug Turnbull for color-case work. Once he shot it with his CAS loads he found that the cases were smutted, the accuracy was poor and would swell the case but only on one side. This to him indicated a bulged chamber. He sent the rifle to me along with some of his bulged fired brass to verify this. I did a chamber cast and found the chamber to be within SAMMI spec. and the cases were truly bulged but not beyond SAMMI. Think about this. If the chamber was bulged and the brass was bulged to match, extraction would be difficult. Not the case here. The fired bulged brass would easily chamber and fall right out if the open rifle was held vertical. The brass was bulged because that was the softest or the thinnest area of the case, not because the chamber was bad. He insisted, they gave him his money back and I bought a Doug Turnbull CC-ed rifle on the cheap from them.
More recently, they had a feller send me a 92 and a 73 for the same reason. He insisted the chambers were too big on both. I cast both guns and both guns were within SAMMI. He still insist that they are bad, that SAMMI spec are not correct and the industry should do something about it.


This diagram shows both cartridge and chamber dimensions. Please note that unless noted all diameters are +.004 and there .200' inside the chamber the nominal is .4862. if you add .004 to that the chamber can be as large as .4902 and still be in spec. I believe this all came about when the industry changed from the non rebated old balloon style cases like the one shown to the modern rebated rim swaged brass. Notice the max bullet dia. .456. Modern 45lc bullets run to only about .454 max with the majority at .452. The current ammo specs don't fill the chambers like the old balloon case ammo. So hard brass and down loaded CAS ammo will exhibit these problems.




This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for some folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others. Some folks only neck size their once fired rifle brass. For BP, there are some folks using 44-40 brass blown out to 45 and claim it works well. 44-40 brass is really thin.

Bottom line is bigger, heavier bullets, good crimps and more powder is the ticket.

[Old Savage]

The one I have doesn't bulge cases even at whatever pressure it takes with 110 to push a 360 Keith (which it feeds fine) to 1350 fps. Things can fall into place on these guns - I am sure Steve knows what must be right. This one is also as smooth as a B92 I have right out of the box. Bore is large however and needs larger bullets.

[jd45]

Old Savage, IIRC that rifle of yours, and correct me if I'm wrong, is a Marlin, isn't it? I seem to remember you posting pics of it. Sweet piece of machinery! And that load of yours must be a real Hammer of Thor! Is it not possible the chamber was bored to the lower side of the spec at the factory, to prevent your cases from bulging? Just curious, jd45

[piller]

In my Ruger .45 Blackhawk, I get blowby and dirty cases with factory loads. A tight crimp and H110 at .5 grains above the minimum has made this situation disappear. I tried crimping the factory cases a little tighter with my Lee Factory Crimp Die, and it helped quite a bit, but I don't like the idea of fixing factory ammo.

[AJMD429]

It would be nice if someone would make "oversize" 45 Colt cases to get around this issue...

[rogn]

But my Redhawk and my Smith have reasonable chambers. Ive not measured them , but they dont bulge cases.

[Old Savage]

jd45 - have never had a 45 Marlin - did have another 45 Rossi at one point that did have what seems to be the normal slightly oversize chamber that I have also seen in the Winchester 94 45 Colt.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

It would be nice if someone would make "oversize" 45 Colt cases to get around this issue...

You can DIY. Fire form then neck size only.

[Old Savage]

Might make it look like a 45 WCF

[J Miller]

Carbide dies all over resize cases. They take the cases far below the SAAMI spec for factory cases so there will be a lot of neck tension.

The easiest way to fix that is to use a standard steel die. These dies size the neck for neck tension and size the body a bit.

Or, you can do what I do and just ignore the bulged cases. I have never, I repeat NEVER had a modern case fail in the body due to this. And I've loaded TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds of .45 Colt from mild to wild in Rugers, Ubertis, S&W, Winchester, Marlin and Rossi firearms. 98% of them in carbide dies.

The problem with blow back is a lack of pressure combined with the generous chambers the manufacturers use. Keep the pressures to an honest SAAMI normal and you will rarely have blow back. Rifles or revolvers.

Winchester and Remington .45 Colt factory ammo is notorious for loose bullets due to NO neck tension. The have a deep cannelure (sic) to keep the bullet from sliding deeper into the case, and heavy crimp to keep the bullet in the case. I've seen many rounds where the bullet was so loose it would move under it's own weight as you rotated the cartridge.
How you can get any accuracy at all from this ammo I have no idea.

Joe