Lead Bullets

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:37 pm

I was going to load up some of my once-fired brass, and lots of questions come to mind since the jacketed bullets I always used to use are so &^%@#$ expensive now...

Gas checks - are they needed for .44 Mag and .357 Mag RIFLE velocities? (does the 3 cents extra cost offset the hassle of casting harder alloys or heat-treating bullets, and . . . do they work?)

(added as a P.S.) - and why aren't Plastic Sabots as good as 'gas checks' since they are useable in some pretty hot (2,000 fps+) muzzle loaders, and the venerable 'Accelerator' rounds; they seem a heck of alot easier to use than gas checks, and more versatile, too...

Lead sources - around here, the service stations say they've already contracted out their old lead to salvagers.

Buying already-cast bullets - it looks like a choice between ones that are really cheaper than casting your own, but will probably lead your barrel if you go >1,200 fps, or ones that are way more expensive than casting your own, and with a fairly limited selection. Is that basically the case?

I've got a couple thousand .44 and .357 brass to reload, and I'd even like to use some plain lead rounds in my bottleneck rifle cases just for practice and saving money.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:44 pm

AJMD429 -

I'm interested in the answers to these questions as well!

BTW, I like your new avatar!

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:54 pm

1) Gas checks certainly do work. A general rule is that under 1600 fps they are not needed. But there are many variables that can prove that untrue such as bullet size, alloy, and quality/quantity of lube. I use gas checked bullets in all my 357 Mag and 44 Mag loads whether I shoot them out of a levergun or a handgun. I don't use gas checks in loads like 38 Spl and 45 ACP.

2) Alloys for casting bullets are getting darn expensive. If you can't beg, borrow or steal them from your local tire shops, see what the recyclers will sell them for. You can also buy virgin alloy from several places online, including Midway. You'd have to do some math, but if your shooting a lot it may be worthwhile.

3) I have not bought any commercial cast bullets for a long time, but the ones I have bought were cheap swagged bullets. They were terrible as far as fouling the bore. The good quality cast bullets are getting up there in price too. Almost better off to buy bulk jacketed bullets, if you can catch them on sale.

If you can scrounge some good alloy for cheap, you can start casting your own for well under a hundred bucks if you just start off with LEE stuff. I cast with quite a few different molds, but if I had to start over now I would make sure I had a heaping pile of alloy for not much money if I were to invest in all the molds and furnaces again.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:55 pm

Why not go to the metal recyclers yourself and buy from them? Don't forget tire stores.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:01 pm

ajmd
If that cartoon is an avitar, or something in your signature, you really ought to modify it somehow, as it seems to carm the replies to the side making them hard to read. Not sure why it does it to all posts though.

Just a thought.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:03 pm

These guys have made some good bullets for me, if you want to buy commercially. Good folks to deal with:
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/

I believe they are a Leverguns.com sponsor also.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:03 pm

Dang, dude, the avatar is to big!

Funny, but too big.

I bet if you went to a few tire stores you'd find someone who would part with them, though, the big chains like to reclaim and charge for anything they can resell. Still, some pimple faced kid isn't going to care if you offer to clean out his bucket...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:15 pm

handirifle wrote:ajmd
If that cartoon is an avitar, or something in your signature, you really ought to modify it somehow, as it seems to carm the replies to the side making them hard to read. Not sure why it does it to all posts though.

Just a thought.

Yeah, I had to temporarily ditch the avitar ; unsure why it came out so big. I don't know if there are any metal recyclers in my area (Indianspolis) but I will try to check the Yellow pages (under...?)

Jeff Pitts · Post by **Jeff Pitts** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:05 am

AJMD429 wrote:Gas checks - are they needed for .44 Mag and .357 Mag RIFLE velocities? (does the 3 cents extra cost offset the hassle of casting harder alloys or heat-treating bullets, and . . . do they work?)

If you are going up into the 1700-1900fps area then yes, they are needed. And yes, they work.

(added as a P.S.) - and why aren't Plastic Sabots as good as 'gas checks' since they are useable in some pretty hot (2,000 fps+) muzzle loaders, and the venerable 'Accelerator' rounds; they seem a heck of alot easier to use than gas checks, and more versatile, too...

Never used sabots. But from what I understand, don't they let you use a smaller diameter bullet in a larger diameter bore? They and gaschecks are 2 different kind of birds.

Lead sources - around here, the service stations say they've already contracted out their old lead to salvagers.

Getting tougher and tougher to find. I"d just say keep looking. Try larger tire shops and very small shops. You just may get lucky. Otherwise you are going to have to go the virgin alloy route and mix your own.

Buying already-cast bullets - it looks like a choice between ones that are really cheaper than casting your own, but will probably lead your barrel if you go >1,200 fps, or ones that are way more expensive than casting your own, and with a fairly limited selection. Is that basically the case?

That sums it up nicely. But once you start casting your own, you won't be able to stop. There is nothing neater than turning a lump of lead into a beautiful projectile and after loading it, sending it down range

I've got a couple thousand .44 and .357 brass to reload, and I'd even like to use some plain lead rounds in my bottleneck rifle cases just for practice and saving money.

I guess you could find a bullet maker and buy in very large bulk. Or go the wonderful route of learning to cast your own! I load 50 rounds of .44 mag for a little over $2 by casting my own!

I also cast for my bottleneck rifle cases. It is very easy to reach 2400fps and superb accuracy using cast bullets. I hunt with cast from 30 caliber on up to 45 nearly exclusively anymore.

Jeff

mac45 · Post by **mac45** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:01 am

Gas checks work, do you need 'em?
Depends. Leading is a fight between pressure and bullet hardness, bullet size and your bore. You can actually lead a bore at low velocities.
I generally don't use them, even in heavy .45 Colt loads.
I haven't played much with really hot .357's, you may find you do need them at the velocities you want. I'd work up and see what works in your rifle.
For bottleneck rounds, you probably will need them. Again, work up slowly and see for sure, in YOUR rifle.

Sabots might work, but as far as I know, no one makes them for cartridges.

I'm having a real hard time finding lead around here too.

I shoot a lot of store bought cast.
Would rather cast my own, but lack of time, and a lack of lead conspire against me. I generally buy 'em from small outfits at gun shows and have good results. So there's nothing wrong with the store boughts, but casting your own IS addictive

A real good source of cast bullet info is the articles by Glen Fryxell at the LA Silhouette Club
http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:48 am

Lead (Wheelweights) are definitely getting tougher to get. Around here, the salvage yards pay 20cents and ask 80cents for the same thing. You have to be careful about zinc ww's now also as it will ruin you alloy if you melt any in your batch.

For 44's I generally don't use gas checks. Hate to put them on, but do use them in high end 357's. As said, it depends on alloy and lube also. Good lube is good for 1600fps with ww's, sometimes you can go a little higher with linotype and plain base bullets, but I usually use the gas check. I generally only start using some lino in my ww's once I get above 2000fps.

Sabots would work, but you can only find them in a few calibers.

deerwhacker444 · Post by **deerwhacker444** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:14 am

C. Cash wrote:These guys have made some good bullets for me, if you want to buy commercially. Good folks to deal with:
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/

I believe they are a Leverguns.com sponsor also.

+1

I just ordered 500 more bullets from them. They sell good products.

DavidF · Post by **DavidF** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:19 am

A friend of mine is a dental hygienist and mentioned that in both offices where she works they use for some procedures "lead foil". After use, the sheets are placed into file boxes and stored instead of paying for disposal. Her words were "there are lots of boxes in the attic and they are really heavy". She might be 100lbs soaking wet so I'm not sure what "heavy" means, and I haven't looked into what kind of alloy it is or if it would be suitable for casting but it might be worth a phone call to your neighborhood dentist office.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:27 am

DavidF wrote:A friend of mine is a dental hygienist and mentioned that in both offices where she works they use for some procedures "lead foil". After use, the sheets are placed into file boxes and stored instead of paying for disposal. Her words were "there are lots of boxes in the attic and they are really heavy". She might be 100lbs soaking wet so I'm not sure what "heavy" means, and I haven't looked into what kind of alloy it is or if it would be suitable for casting but it might be worth a phone call to your neighborhood dentist office.

I have a couple of dentists who give me that. It's 99% pure pb. In a 9x12x7 box it weighs about 40lbs if not compressed.

I suggest you take a truck and go get all those boxes ASAP.

I'm doing OK for the moment. I just checked my back-stock and it looks like I've got about 450lbs of WW anf 600lbs pb. I need another 5 buckets of WW to get where I need to be...

Bluehawk · Post by **Bluehawk** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:29 am

GAs checks work if you are pushing the velocity of any round . I use them ( right now ) for only one bullet and one round,thats the 30 cal RCBs 180 FN I load that to about 1900 in my 30/30 rifles it casts about 195 W lube and gas check ready to go . I do not see the reason to go over that in a 30/30
I have taken deer cleanly wiht loads form my 45/70 and 38/55 with great accuracy and without fuss without going over qbout 1700 with plain base bullets and never need gas checks .
Lead is a problem but there are other ways of scrounging lead than juut wheel weights. EVen buying alloys isusually cheaper than buying jacketed bullets to day .
I keep casting I LIKE IT

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:33 am

To write a complete answer to your questions is to write a book. I read a couple on the subject before ever casting my first bullet. I don't know whether your priority is cost or performance. If cost, you get/cast properly lubed bullets correct for your bore size, gas-checked, you should be able to safely, with standard weight bullets, get velocities up to 1900-2000 fps and have minimal leading. In the .357 Mag and .44 Mag using properly shaped bullets might well be very important as well since they must feed. SWCs don't always (actually SELDOM IME) feed well. Junior is using a 180 gr. cast in his .357 Mag rifle with good performance.

I personally feel that saboted bullets in cartridge rifles are generally a waste of time. IOW, if you're going to use a smaller caliber bullet it is easier to get good accuracy by using that bullet in an appropriately sized bore.

I'm to the point that I get lead where I find it and the old sources are all gone. It is easier to buy directly from the salvage yard or, better yet, from the smelter.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:47 pm

Hobie wrote:It is easier to buy directly from the salvage yard or, better yet, from the smelter.

Are these kinds of places just listed as 'smelter' or 'salvage yard' in the yellow pages? I haven't had a chance to look thoroughly, but leafing through an old yellow pages, the 'salvage yard' I found isn't some place I'd necessarily want to trust that 'lead' I bought didn't really have zinc, or plutonium, for that matter, in it. How does one find a reputable place?

BTW - THANKS to ALL for the many useful comments. That's what a place like Leverguns.com is all about...

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:12 pm

I use Westcastings coated lead bullets in my 357, they are a PB and they advertise them as good to 1700fps but I've been told you can drive them up to 2000fps with no problems. Here in Australia we pay about $70 per 1000 for them and I couldn't cast my own for that price. You do have a supplier over there as well but I dont know about the price, or cost of transport from supplier to user. If anyone finds the answer to these questions let me know, cause I keep recommending these bullets to you guys and dont even know whether you can get them.
Here are the details from the Aussie site:

Westcastings USA
Phone +1(909) 788-9155
Fax +1(909) 788-1775
Cell +1(909) 288-3078

Heres the site if you want to have a look, theres all kinds of good stuff in there:

http://www.rpgfirearms.com.au/WESTCASTINGS.htm

and if accuracy is a consideration, one ragged hole is not out of the question at 50 yds.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:33 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Hobie wrote:It is easier to buy directly from the salvage yard or, better yet, from the smelter.
Are these kinds of places just listed as 'smelter' or 'salvage yard' in the yellow pages? I haven't had a chance to look thoroughly, but leafing through an old yellow pages, the 'salvage yard' I found isn't some place I'd necessarily want to trust that 'lead' I bought didn't really have zinc, or plutonium, for that matter, in it. How does one find a reputable place?

BTW - THANKS to ALL for the many useful comments. That's what a place like Leverguns.com is all about...

Contact every dentist or other Dr type who still uses Film and see if you can get their X-Ray foils.

Better yet, keep an ear out for anyone tearing out an X-Ray Room and get the lead sheeting lining the walls.

With lots of pure pb you can get tin or "lead free"solder to harden it up.

As for finding salvage yards, try "Metal Recyclers". Also you can look for old "pewter" junk mugs at garage sales. Most of those test out to be Tin. At Salvage Yards, you can see if you can find "Babbit Metal" which they used to use as (IIRC) engine bearing sleeves or some such in big, old engines.

Still, if you can horse-trade for Wheel Weights out from under the Recyclers who are buying them from the tire guys, that's your best bet.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:44 pm

While gas checks do help to a certain extent they add dramatically to the cost of your home brewed (or commercially bought) bullet.
Montana Bullet Works do sell a good bullet at excellent prices.
If you start casting your own don't forget to check with your radtech folks, the xray film containers make good pure lead, but do need to be alloyed up a bit to make good bullets.
Might want to consider just buying commercial cast for plinkin dinkin, and reserve the jacketed for hunting. You'll get as much good from plinking with moderate to low level loads as you well from full house romperstompers.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:18 pm

I do not cast so I can not comment but I usually buy from Mt. Baldy Bullets. Frank's bullets are not cheap but quality costs. I have heard very good reports about Montana but have not tried their wares. Best of Luck. 1886.

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