45 Colt velocity increase from handgun to rifle

[Idiot]

Using a 45 Colt load using a 270 grain semi-wadcutter bullet pushed by 8 grains of Unique I get an average 905 fps out of a 5.5 inch Ruger (original) Vaquero. When the same load is fired out of a 22" paradox barrel the velocity is an average 953 fps. Is this small (48 fps) velocity increase typical or is it because the paradox barrel is free of rifling (and perhaps tight fit) the first 16 inches of the rifles travel? Or is it because the load is not a 45 Colt "heavy" load?

I assumed at least a gain of 100 - 150 fps. Perhaps there was too much barrel for the load - like a 22 LR that loses velocity after 16 (or less) inches or so.

What kind of velocity increase do you get with either this load or other similar loads in your leverguns?

I get big gains with my 357 magnum loads and considerable gains with the 44 magnum.

[earlmck]

You are right to expect a considerable velocity increase in a rifle barrel vs. your 5.5" revolver barrel -- say a couple hundred fps even with the Unique load. It must be something about the characteristics of the Paradox barrel that is losing a lot of the "push".

[LGW]

column 1: Cor Bon 200 gr. JHP +P
column 2: Cor Bon 225 gr. DPX +P
column 3: Federal 225 gr. semi-wadcutter Lead HP

18" 1275 1482 1042
17" 1254 1464 1050
16" 1245 1483 1060
15" 1239 1494 1045
14" 1238 1454 1034
13" 1244 1431 1031
12" 1179 1420 1005
11" 1198 1406 1000
10" 1180 1387 1000
9" 1154 1356 965
8" 1140 1340 947
7" 1090 1278 925
6" 1043 1210 891
5" 957 1157 847
4" 875 1093 757
3" 775 936 684
2" 675 778 609

source: ballisticsbytheinch dot com

[Don McDowell]

Using unique I note the velocity gain from handgun to rifle is small. Mike Venturino published an article many years ago on the 45 colt and said with some loads the velocity either dropped or stayed the same from the rifle.
Powders from 2400 and slower show as much as 300 fps increase in the rifle.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I shoot a lot of 2400 and 800X in the .45 Colt.
I find they run anywhere from 100 to 250 fps faster in my rifles
compared to my revolvers.
That said, I just ordered a new Ruger Red Hawk 7 1/2" .45 Colt.
It will be fun working with that revolver and seeing what it can do,
especially with heavy cast bullets and large doses of push.

[Idiot]

Gentlemen, thanks for the responses and information. The information is good, but a bit inconclusive to answer the question behind the posted questions - that is, should I keep this 45 Colt/410 paradox NEF or sell it? I decided I'd keep it if I could obtain some decent gains in velocity using my handgun loads, but my handgun loads use Unique and cast lead bullets (except for my "all out" Redhawk loads which use fully enclosed copper jackedt bullets at 45 Colt +P+ velocities - both the bullets and the loads are unsuitable for a Paradox barrel). So, I will need to work up some modest 45 Colt +P loads (similar cast bullet at 1,200 fps) using a much slower powder and run then over the chronograph to reach a conclusion. Again, thanks.

[Idiot]

Using unique I note the velocity gain from handgun to rifle is small. Mike Venturino published an article many years ago on the 45 colt and said with some loads the velocity either dropped or stayed the same from the rifle.
Powders from 2400 and slower show as much as 300 fps increase in the rifle.

Hi Ranch: I spent two hours searching through a quarter of my stash of magazines looking for the Venturino article you referenced - would you happen to know what magazine published that article? Take care old timer. Homer

[FWiedner]

The .45's just don't seem to see the velocity increase from pistol to rifle the way other cartridges do. For something like the .45ACP it's an issue of dimishing gas volume because of the small amount of powder used. Not the case with the .45 Colt and in your circumstance I think you provide a major consideration:

"... because the paradox barrel is free of rifling (and perhaps tight fit) the first 16 inches of the rifles travel..."

May not be 'the' factor, or it may be, but I'm thinkin' it sure don't help.

Maybe going 'freebore' and then encountering rifling to impart stability to a bullet takes a bit of speed off the top too.

[Don McDowell]

Homer it'ld be back around the late 80's, and it was an article on both the Marlin 94 and the Winchester trapper. Can't recall if it was in Guns n ammo or maybe shooting times?

[Hobie]

Using unique I note the velocity gain from handgun to rifle is small. Mike Venturino published an article many years ago on the 45 colt and said with some loads the velocity either dropped or stayed the same from the rifle.
Powders from 2400 and slower show as much as 300 fps increase in the rifle.

This is pretty much my experience.

[Don McDowell]

Homer one other thing you might want to try just for kicks and grins. Bludot. I had chrono numbers around here some where but can't find them. Anyway if you go to alliants web data and go with their load it's a sizzler in the handgun, and shots far and flat enough from the Winchester to make hitting silloette rams at 250 yds a simple matter with no hold over, with the williams sight not even maxed out in elevation.

[blackhawk44]

The problem is that you are operating at such a low pressure that with the longer carbine barrel you are nearing the point that friction is about to overcome the bullet's initial momentum. The situation is common with the .22 long rifle. Velocities normally peak in around 16 to 18 inch barrels. It is common for 20 to 24 inch barreled .22s to register lower velocities than the shorter barrels since pressure has peaked and friction is slowing the bullet. Your situation is also common to the use of the 9mm and .45ACP in carbine barrels.

Higher pressure loads (with the appropiate powders and tested manual loads) would obviously increase velocity, but may be uncomfortable in the handgun. If the long gun is to be a serious hunting arm, loads should be developed especially for it. Using a totally different style of bullet for each gun and marking the case heads with red marker are a couple of ways to distinguish the two loads.

[Idiot]

Homer one other thing you might want to try just for kicks and grins. Bludot. I had chrono numbers around here some where but can't find them. Anyway if you go to alliants web data and go with their load it's a sizzler in the handgun, and shots far and flat enough from the Winchester to make hitting silloette rams at 250 yds a simple matter with no hold over, with the williams sight not even maxed out in elevation.

I've got a bunch of Bluedot on hand, so I'll give it a whirl. Bluedot burns slower than Unique and when used in my 357 Magnum loads shows a big increase in rifle velocity over handgun velocity (Bluedot is my 357 Magnum powder of choice).

The problem is that you are operating at such a low pressure that with the longer carbine barrel you are nearing the point that friction is about to overcome the bullet's initial momentum.

I suspect this, along with the fast powder, is could be the issue. However, I also think that gas escape in the smoothbore area of the barrel could also be the issue. Loading it with cartridges using more of a slower powder will isolate the issue and answer my initial underline question. I'm going to try Bluedot and kick the velocity up a bit for the next chronograph test.

The thing about paradox barrels is that you can run Colt +P loads, but the hotter they get the softer the lead must be, which of course defeats the purpose. It's finding the right balance of velocity and lead hardness that is the trick (slamming a fast hard bullet against six inches of rifling at the end of a 22" barrel can cause a lot of unsavory things to happen). If I can achieve "heavy" 45 Colt +P velocities (1,350 fps) with barrel length and without the high pressures, I'll keep the gun, if not, it will be sold. If I keep it, I will need to invest in brass 410 hulls because the current cost of 410 shells is counter to any idea of a "subsistence hunting" gun.

[Catshooter]

I think you've got it nailed, Idiot. My nine grain 45 Colt load shows just over 900 fps in my four inch Smith sixgun, a bit over 1100 out of my Winchester Trapper (16"). This is with a 260 grain Keith.

If I wanted more speed from the rifle I'd use Paco's fallback powder, 2400.


Cat

[1886]

Try H-110. It is slow enough to show an appreciable gain is velocity from the longer rifle barrel. H-110 likes load density, read compression, neck tension, and CCI mag primers. 1886.

[Griff]

What is the bore diameter? Doesn't sound like the bullet is getting a good seal.

[Buck Elliott]

My loads with H-4198 give about 350 fps increase in a 24" rifle barrel over a 7 1/2" revolver..

[jager3]

Also, SR4759 gives about 300 to 350fps more velocity over a 7 1/2" BBL.

[Hobie]

From my records. The following loads were tested with the noted results.

Code: Select all

Make                    Bullet	            Vel	        FPE	AD	SD
CCI Blazer	            200 gr. JHP	    1152   	        590	20	29
Win Cowboy         250 gr. LFP	      835	        387	30	35
Win ST	            225 gr. ST	      946	        448	18	27
Reload	            250 gr. XTP	    1778	      1756	12	28

[Idiot]

Thanks guys for all the help and suggestions.

I loaded up a few more rounds using a 255 grain SWC bullet and 18 grains of Alliant 2400 powder. In the 5.5 inch Ruger Vaquero the average velocity was 1,018 fps (velocities were all over the map) and the average velocity in the NEF Paradox was 1,155 fps (velocities were very consistant with little deviation), resulting in an average gain of 137 fps. This gain is below what can be expected in a regular rifle barrel, but is an improvement over the Unique loading I'd initially tried.

I've concluded that the reason I'm not getting the normal velocity gains is because of an imperfect gas seal in the smoothbore section of the barrel, which should be expected in a Paradox barrel. I've also concluded that the Paradox barrel has performed as it should, given it is an "all around gun" barrel and is in and of itself a series of compromises. When using 410 shotgun shells it performs like most 410s but with a tad more shot dispersion - so its "sweet spot" range will be just a tad closer than a normal 410 shotgun. In 45 Colt it may not exhibit the same pinpoint accuracy that one can achieve with a regular rifle, and some of its velocity will be sacrificed. But even though it may not be as accurate, it can be shot with more accuracy than most people can shoot a handgun - so in the end that can be a push. And even though it may not gain as much velocity as a regular rifle might, a 255 SWC leaving the barrel at 1,155 fps is nothing to trifle with, and you certainly can't stop it with your hand. And if one wanted to, I'm sure 1,300 fps can be achieved by handloading exclusively for it.

This Paradox rifle has taken many bag limits of doves, some quail, and a bunch of cottontails when using 2 3/4" 410 shells. And it has accounted for a number of antelope jackrabbit, with one taken at a full 100 paces with the 45 Colt (cowboy load). So it has worked as it should and will continue to do so - for someone else. I have replaced this gun with a better (for me) subsistence firearm and will sell this one at the next gun show. It's been fun, but it will make room for its replacement in my safe.

Thanks for all your responses and suggestions. Now I've got to figure out why this load (using Alliant 2400) had such big differences in velocity (one as high as 127 fps) when fired out of my Ruger Vaquero (the loads using Unique were far more consistent).