Copper Fouling

[Sixgun]

OK guys, I'm mixed up.....big time. For all of my close to 50 years of shooting, I have been led to believe that copper fouling from jacketed bullets is detrimental to accuracy. As most of my guns are shot with lead, it ain't no big deal. But...............with my AR, M1-A, and a few fast shooting boltguns I religiously clean them of all fouling, powder and copper.

Now, my buddy Gunny never does. I watched him put 10 shots into about 4 inches on the 500 meter ram last week. His Rock River Match AR-15 has over 2K out of it. Its not that he refuses to do it, he don't know any better.

Here's the brain twister. My son calls me up a few minutes ago. (He lives in Colorado) This guy is an AR fanatic. He tells me he was talking to the owner of this tactical gunshop today and this guy was telling him that using ammonia copper solvent will do more harm than good. He claims it will eat up the barrel and told him of the many studies to back up the story. He went on to say the military does not use it, even on their machine guns.

I know a lot of people who are shooters and some of them are 1,000 yard benchrest guys and these guys claim that you need to get the copper OUT.

Whats your take on all this? Is this more BS from the makers of Sweets, Butche's, Hoppe's, etc.?------------------Sixgun

[3leggedturtle]

Shoot yer rifles til accuracy drops off, i bought 5 old rifles that shot pretty good with nasty looking bores. Now after I cleaned them they shoot 1-hole groups My 30/30 micro groove shot about the same with both jacketed and cast wheter the bore was spic n span or really dirty. I still run a loose fitting patch down when i'm done shooting.

[Pisgah]

What you are seeing is a feature of all things -- the bell curve. There are examples on both extremes of the range -- people who clean every shot, and people who nevr clean; and, they get good accuracy. On the other hand, the vast majority fall in to the middle, cleaning more or less, and most get accuracy acceptable to them, if not always amazing. Fact is, this describes rifles themselves. I have seen rifles that had to be cleaned scrupolously and regularly to say accurate, and rifles that never lost accuracy no matter how fouled they got -- and some that had rarely been cleaned, had sewer-pipe bores, and would still make your eyes pop at the groups they shot.

[harry]

Not all guns are the same
My H&R 223 will shoot 1/2" groups all day, but if you scrub the barrel with copper solvent it takes 200 to 300 rounds to get back to that 1/2", So it hasn't seen solvent in 7 years.
My Weatherby vanguard 223 needs to be scrubed with solvent every 100 rounds or so.

[rogn]

Pisgah has struck the nail on the thumb. Barrels vary, in my own experience, Ive had some that would shoot 5 shots into 1/2" at 200 and the 6th was anyones guess. That barrel from a prominent maker had the the interior surface of a5/16" nut. Point blank bench rest shooters tend to clean after 5 or 10 shots plus sighters, but(my experience is limited to 600yds) long range shooters tend to fire 40 to 80 rounds without cleaning. Ive had barrels that never copper fouled after 50-60 round and others that fould badly after only 1 or 2 shots, and still shoot reasonably well. Ive found a product called Boretech Eliminator that pulls copper very well w/o ammonia(at least in volatile form). You make your choices and follow through. Another thought, there seems to be a tendency for chrome moly barrels to pit under fouling if stored uncleaned in humid areas.

[Hobie]

Ammonia will damage the steel if left on it too long. E.g. Sweets says no more than 30 minutes. I clean when needed. I like the non-ammonia based foam cleaners such as Wipeout. Works for me.

[6pt-sika]

I have a Remington 700BDL Varmint Special in 222 REM that was made about 75 or 76 I'd say . Got it about 6 months ago down in Bedford Virginia at an auction . The old gun was kind grungy at the auction inside and out . But it looked like a truck gun a farmer had carried in the rifle rack in the rear window of his pickup for a number of years .

I bought the thing took it home and took it apart .

Initial cleaning showed that it more then likely hadn't been shot much but it also didn't appear to have been cleaned to awful much either .

The first day I put the wood jaws in the vise and clamped the barrel inside . Then I started what I've been doing to guns like this for the past 15 years .

I take a nice new 22 cal all copper brush dip it in Hoppe's #9 and make 25 passes back and forth . Then I run three clean patches thru on a slightly smaller brush to get as much stuff as possible out . I follow this procedure 4 times until I've had 100 passes of a tight brush thru the bore . After that I use Hoppe's Copper Solvent on a nylon bristle brush two or three passes and then I run 2 or 3 clean patches thru and then repeat this proces 5-10 times depending on how much green I get on the patch .

After that I'll go to the range and shoot maybe 5 three shot groups or 3 five shot groups and clean . Again I do four passes for EACH shot . And after that a fouler and back to 3 or 5 more groups .

Generally a 22 cal bolt gun will come around pretty quick . I have some Sweets 7.62 but I kinda refrain from using that stuff except as a last resort .

The gun I started talking about in this post got me the second smallest 3 shot group at 100 yards I've ever fired and that was 3 Nosler 40 grain BT's in less then a tenth of an inch after you subtracted the diameter of the bullet . Maybe a fluke and maybe not but it did happen , generally the gun will keep 3 at 100 in the 1/4" range . And if I'm not wound to tight I can do the same thing with 5 shots on a decent day .

Now when you start talking about barrels , sure aftermarket barrels are USUALLY finished better on the inside . but I have had some factory barrels that would shoot as good if not better then the custom barrels .

With factory stainless I have found some that actually needed some copper fouling to produce their best results on paper . But they also reach a point when you need to get all the copper out and shoot it back in so to speak .

May not agree etc etc but this has worked for me over the least twenty or so years and lord knows I've wasted enough time and effort doing this type of thing to atleast have a little knowledge

[6pt-sika]

I know a lot of people who are shooters and some of them are 1,000 yard benchrest guys and these guys claim that you need to get the copper OUT.

Whats your take on all this? Is this more BS from the makers of Sweets, Butche's, Hoppe's, etc.?------------------Sixgun

I suppose I clean more then most and less then a good many !

But the bottom line is this regardless of "actual" if in ones head they believe it makes a difference then it does !

Anything that makes you think a decent gun will shoot better ultimately makes one shoot better just from the fact that they will most likely try harder . Or atleast thats my take on the whole thing .

[OldWin]

I also think it varies by barrel but I try to keep copper fouling to a minimum. That said I don't use harsh solvents to remove it. I mostly use Hoppes 9 or rarely Hoppes BR. I try to not let it build up too much before removal.
Most barrels are not a problem but like Sixgun I have M1A's I shoot a lot and it can be more of a problem. One has a chrome bore and does not foul much. I have read that copper solvents should never be allowed to sit in a chrome bore as it can get under it through microscopic cracks and loosen the bonding layer lifting the lining.
I once bought a pre-64 model 70 in 270 that had the most copper fouled barrel I've seen. I shot it as is and was amazed how accurate it was. After much debating I spent days carefully getting most of the copper out only to find it shot no different than before. Who knows?

[Sixgun]

Thanks guys! I do believe many of us clean more than needed. I was really concerned about the ammonia destroying the barrel, but like most of what has been said, it makes sense to clean after accuracy falls off a bit.

Have any of you military guys seen the use of ammonia based solvents while serving? My bud Gunny says he never saw it.---------Sixgun

[Chas.]

I'll be the contra here. Ammonia will NOT react with steel. I used to work in an industry that dealt with a lot of ammonia. It was stored in unlined steel drums of various sizes and handled with black iron pipe and fittings. No reaction of any kind.

[Pete44ru]

I have no opinion on ammonia, since I've never used it on a rifle - but I do about copper fouling.

I agree that, if/when a barrel copper fouls, it very much depends upon the particular barrel, which is (of course) a case-by-case/rifle-by-rifle basis, with seemingly identical rifles from the same maker at the same production run exhibiting contrary behavior.

I vote: Clean any copper fouling only if/when a particular barrel calls for it - usually in terms of a drastic accuracy change for the worse.

I use Hoppe's Copper Solvent with a bore brush, as I would use Hoppe's No.9, ( For all I know it contains ammonia )


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[Sixgun]

I'll be the contra here. Ammonia will NOT react with steel. I used to work in an industry that dealt with a lot of ammonia. It was stored in unlined steel drums of various sizes and handled with black iron pipe and fittings. No reaction of any kind.

OK, that makes sense. Now, how about a chrome lined barrel which most AR's have? Think it will eat the chrome away? This is what the gunshop guy was telling my son and on the labels of ammonia based solvents it does say, "not to leave it in the barrel more than 30 minutes".-----------------Sixgun

[COSteve]

The truth is most damage to barrels comes from too much cleaning rather than too much shooting. In addition, a perfectly clean barrel is rarely as accurate as one which has had a number of fouling shots through it. Every bench rest shooter in our club I've talked to says he/she must shoot fouling shots after a thorough barrel cleaning to regain accuracy and group size.

Those two bits of data have convinced to me that one needs to clean one's barrel only when the accuracy falls off noticably. My chrome-line Wilson barrel on my RRA A4 will go over 2,000rds before I can see any difference in my 300yd shooting, however, I'm not a bullseye shooter, rather I like to shoot a small steel. And since I'm still hitting 3"-3½" apples at over 400yds with a barrel that's got well over 1,500rds since I removed all the copper I figure that's good enough accuracy because I can't tell the difference if the barrel is freshly cleaned or not.

Speaking of cleaning, I routinely just use an AR chamber brush followed by 3 passes with a boresnake with a 2"-3" spot dipped in Hoppe's No. 9. That seems to be good enough for my ARs and everything else I shoot, whether rifle or pistol. And like Hobie, when it's time to remove the copper, I stay away from ammonia based bore cleaners. Then I've found that it takes some 15-20rds to season the barrel again.

[Pete44ru]

I'll be the contra here. Ammonia will NOT react with steel. I used to work in an industry that dealt with a lot of ammonia. It was stored in unlined steel drums of various sizes and handled with black iron pipe and fittings. No reaction of any kind.

OK, that makes sense. Now, how about a chrome lined barrel which most AR's have? Think it will eat the chrome away? This is what the gunshop guy was telling my son and on the labels of ammonia based solvents it does say, "not to leave it in the barrel more than 30 minutes".-----------------Sixgun

FWIW, I've found that there's a whole buncha "stuff" out there, which will either eat away at chrome plating, or cause it to lift.

IMHO, with chrome, the best defense is no offense - except maybe a bit ox wax/polish.


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[Charles]

I will try and answer the question to the best of my knowledge based on my experience.

1. The amout of metal fouling in a barrel depends on the bullet jacket material, the size of the bore, the speed of the bullet and the internal finish of the barrel.

2. No barrel is immune from the cumulative effect of this metal fouling, but nobody but the barrel can say you have reached the point of accuracy drop-off. I have a .243 that went south after 800 rounds and it took a good de-coppering to bring it back to decent accuracy. I have had 30-06s that went 5,000 rounds without hitting the point of problems.

3. There is a balance point between obsessive/excessive cleaning and neglect.

4. Cast bullet require a barrel with less metal fouling than jacketed bullets.

5. I have used Sweets for years, but Wipe-Out is much faster.

6. I have never damaged a barrel in the de-coppering process, in fact I have never damaged a barrel in any way.

7. De-copper when you need to and don't when you don't. There is no formula to follow.

This is no longer an issue with me, as I shoot very few jacketed bullets these days, but when I get a new to me used rifle, I do a through de-coppering before I go to my cast bullets.

[bdhold]

the biggest concern with copper deposits is pitting (copper is a strong cathode), and you need moisture to make that happen.

Yes, ammonia is very safe for steel - biggest concern with ammonia is that it cracks hardened brass.

[Sixgun]

7. De-copper when you need to and don't when you don't. There is no formula to follow.

This is no longer an issue with me, as I shoot very few jacketed bullets these days, but when I get a new to me used rifle, I do a through de-coppering before I go to my cast bullets.

OK guys, I've learned a lot. Thank you! I believe that Charle's #7 rule is about the best you can get. Like Charles, I don't shoot much jacketed anymore (never really did) but these AR's can pile on the fouling, at least the way I shoot them.boom...boom...boom......

I guess this is what I get for not paying attention to what is written about copper fouling in the gunrags for the last 40+ years. Lead? I can talk all year about that. ---------Sixgun

Oh, BTW, its kind of neat watching all the old rock groups on this 12-12-12 thing on TV. I grew up with these guys and its funny watching these old guys on guitars..etc -------------Me