1886 Quandry

[BenTolson]

Picked up an interesting Winchester 1886...
Here's the good, it left the factory as follows: Mfg. in 1896. Cal. 40-70, octagon barrel, takedown, set trigger, factory installed Lyman side mount rear & Lyman front hunting sights. The bore is good and the stock is solid. The original blue & original wood finish are at 50-60%. The gun option information came via a Cody email.
Now the not so good.... barrel has been cut to 22". The magazine has been cut to "half mag" length. Takedown lever on magazine has been replaced. Set trigger screw is missing (I don't know if the internal parts are there either) Side mount sight is a Lyman 21, but it isn't original to the gun. Side mount sight lever, screws & pointer are reproductions (they look good, but their finish is "flat" instead of a high luster blue.)
So here's the question... do I spend approx. $1500. to have the barrel & magazine tube redone...or just leave it as is?
I value the gun in it's present state at $4000. (I had that number verified by a friend on the Cody Board)
So, with the current market, is it worth the time, effort & cash to have it worked on? I can post pics if so desired...

[pwl44m]

First off Ben !- Welcome to the Forum. While I'm definitly not an 1886 officianado (or any other model for that matter)I wouldn't spend that amount of money to make it still "NOT" original. U could make it look nice and the way it should be but an 1886 Nut would be able to pick it apart. But its Ur Gun not Mine, do what pleases "You".
Perry
BTW, pics aint desired, They are "Required"

[Griff]

First off Ben !- Welcome to the Forum. While I'm definitly not an 1886 officianado (or any other model for that matter)I wouldn't spend that amount of money to make it still "NOT" original. U could make it look nice and the way it should be but an 1886 Nut would be able to pick it apart. But its Ur Gun not Mine, do what pleases "You".
Perry
BTW, pics aint desired, They are "Required"

+1

[BenTolson]

Here are a few pics...

[TedH]

Welcome! Very nice first post, and nice rifle.

[BenTolson]

I'd always be willing to buy an original 40-70 barrel & magazine tube if anybody happened to have them just laying around...

[BenTolson]

[quote="TedH"]Welcome! Very nice first post, and nice rifle. [/quotep]
thanks...
I'm not a lever gun addict, I do come accross some nice pieces from time to time...my main addiction is the 1908 Model Marble Game Getter...

[pwl44m]

Had a Quackenbush bicycle gun once. Cute little Rascal made by a Nutcracker Company. Sold it to a Guy that wanted it just for the Wire Stock to put on His. Surprisingly I bought parts from Numrich for it.
Perry

[Old Savage]

Welcome Ben and .... who isn't into the 1908 Marble Game Getter - easy to understand.

[BenTolson]

If anyone is interested & in need, I've got parts available for both models of the Game Getter, the 1908 & 1921. But back to the 86... I've been told there are guys out there who can reproduce barrels w/ the markings & age them to look the same as the rest of the gun...anybody encounter these types of "restorations" and how are they viewed (positive, negitive...avoided)? I posted the serial number purposely to get the gun known for it's original condition.

[buckeyeshooter]

If anyone is interested & in need, I've got parts available for both models of the Game Getter, the 1908 & 1921. But back to the 86... I've been told there are guys out there who can reproduce barrels w/ the markings & age them to look the same as the rest of the gun...anybody encounter these types of "restorations" and how are they viewed (positive, negitive...avoided)? I posted the serial number purposely to get the gun known for it's original condition.

You can send it to Turnbull Restorations, be prepared to spend 'more than the $4000 you value it at" and wait a year to get it back. It will look new, can be fixed up to just as it shipped, but it still will not be an original gun. Eventullay, you will be able to sell it to a Turnbull collector (like me) who will pay what you have in it.

[Griff]

Very interesting firearm. I don't believe I've ever heard of it.

For 1886 restoration work, either Doug Turnbull or Mike Hunter. MIke's website is down, and I don't know if he's still taking work. He visits here from time to time.

[gamekeeper]

Welcome to the fire.. I've only ever handled one Marble Game Getter, it seemed like an ideal tool for the backwoods..
As for the 1886 Winchester I always thought our own MikeD was "The Man"..

[Dave B]

In a restored state, that would be a very nice rifle.
I think I would be hesitant to enjoy using it.

As-is, that is still a very nice rifle.
I think I would enjoy using it every chance I had.

Dave B

[Pete44ru]

Welcome, Ben - I like it fine, just as it is, and would use it unto death; BUT if I wanted ANY restoration work done, I would PM fellow levergunner Mike Hunter of Hunter Restorations.

I've seen a few examples of the lettering restorations, etc, that he's done - and IMHO, Mike does exemplary work at reasonable prices.

He should get notified of a PM via email.(I know I do)


.

[AJMD429]

Sounds like someone turned a vintage collectible into a 'shooter', and I'd probably just shoot and enjoy as is-but I'm not a collector. Actually since I'm not, I would probably sell it to a collector and use the money to get a reproduction. Sounds like you are more of a collector though.

[ollogger]

Thanks for the pix Ben & welcome, I like the 86 as is, good history
as for the game getter WOW



ollogger

[coyote nose]

No quandry at all if it were mine. Look at it...it is BEAUTIFUL as is and reeks of history!! Getting it redone, even if expertly done, negates all that. It then becomes a redone 1886 instead of an originally used 1886. The only time I redo old lever or pump guns is when they are ugly or inoperable. Yours is neither (except for the trigger). As far as the trigger and takedown lever, that is a different story, I would scrounge the internet sites and find the necessary small parts required to make it operable, otherwise, have it gone over, load up some black or pyrodex loads and have fun with the old gal.

[wecsoger]

What he said. Nothing you can do will make it original. So saying, I imagine were you to make it "original", the person who gets that rifle after you may be tempted to misrepresent it.

If it bothers you that much, clean it up with couple replacement parts, make it a solid shooter and sell/trade it off for the real deal.

If it doesn't bother you that much, clean it up with a couple replacement parts, get it out and shoot it. That's a solid and serious piece of history.

There's a bunch of us here that would love to just spend a couple minutes with it at the range and send some lead down the tube.

[gak]

I don't necessarily disagree with most comments here on general principle, but just as an exercise, I have a question: How is it that different to "rectify" the mag tube and barrel with "original" old-but-good-and- correct-length parts now versus someone perhaps doing the same years ago (but they didn't, instead cut it)? Many guns were rebarreled "back then" and if the replacement is period correct as to manufacture and looks reasonably like it came on the gun to boot, what difference does it make? Then looks like someone could have replaced the barrel long ago. Big whup. I forget the build date of this one's, but if someone blew up a barrel in, say, ten or fifteen years on--unlikely though that may have been--and replaced it, no one would say anything, or at least that much. I'll grant it'd still not be the same as it was originally and wouldn't price out as such, but neither is the cut barrel and shorter tube,..But, I'll also grant the newer replacement barrel even by now would not likely have the same patina (and the cutting itself can be argued as part of its history, ironically especially if done on the original barrel in the first place) and that's the fly in my ointment..., just sayin' . Also, I'm away from the OP and don't recall if we know when it was cut?

I'd enjoy it as is but in the meantime have a serious look out for a few "correct" parts with a good degree of patina on them. A "restoration" of sorts. Restoration to original configuration. If you find the just-right parts, voila. (If that causes you any misgiving angst, you can always hold onto the original- but-cut parts). If you don't find parts to your satisfaction, continue to enjoy the gun as is.

[BenTolson]

Just to be clear...when I obtained the rifle it's barrel length was 23 3/8" (the cut was slanted)...the front sight was only 1/8" from the muzzle & poorly staked. The front underside barrel band cut had been filled with lead. The magazine tube was already cut. The magazine tube cap was there but missing the lever, a wood screw was reamed into the side of the cap. There wasn't a Lyman 21 sight on the gun. I went online and found an original Winchester takedown lever & purchased it. I took the gun to a friend, LeeRoy Wisner (he's a gunsmith here in Washington & is the author of "Handbook of Hard-To-Find Gun Parts Drawings"). I used to work in his gunshop 25 years ago. We discussed what could be done with the gun based on the condition and the very real fact that there weren't very many 40-70's made, much less as a takedown. We decided to cut the barrel length at 22", re-set the front sight to it's proper location and install the new takedown lever to the magazine tube. A few weeks later when I picked up the gun from LeeRoy he asked if I knew what the two extra holes in the side of the receiver were for? I did & said I was looking for a Lyman 21 sight ....he then grinned & pulled a sight from his pocket. He said he had been saving it for the right gun & mine fit the bill. It didn't have the lever, screws & pointer though. Still, it matched up condition wise to the gun & I actually ended up paying him more than what he was asking. A couple weeks later, LeeRoy called and told me that he found a reproduction set of parts to finish the sight. So this is how the gun's present condition came to be. It's very functional but still, isn't as it left the factory. Yes, I would love to find an original barrel & magazine tube, but so far I've scoured the Denver show, the Tulsa show twice, the big Montana show and all the shows, big & small in the Northwest and haven't found either piece. As I said earlier, I'm not a serious lever gun collector and would rather put the money into Game Getters... so, I will most likely have to find this '86 a new home.
Ben

[Charles]

Hi Ben...You name sounds very familiar, but I disremember from where. Anyway, back to your question...

If I were a Winchester collector and wanted to put it in a rack, I would take it back to original.

If I were a shooter or hunter, I would leave it like it is.

Just my two cents worth.

[Old Shatterhand]

Keep that gun as it is: it has history and character. If you refurnish and reblue it, you just have a fine gun but nothing more. Now it has beautiful scars and wrincles from unknown hunts and adventures, and if you had known the half of its history, you would have had stuff enough for a great novel. Don't dye away that in the gunsmith's blueing tank!

Pete

[BenTolson]

I am not interesded in having it re-blued....I know what that would do to the gun's value & character. I'm not a huge fan of the Turnbull restorations...that's just me. There's a sour taste in the Marble's Game Getter collector community regarding Turnbull's involvment & non-production of the 3rd generation Game Getter. I've never heard the full story about why that project fell apart, but I know that several friends put up $1000. deposits and waited years for nothing to happen. My interest was in having a 40-70 barrel made, marked & "aged" to fit the gun's condition. Talking with some of the guys I knew at Tulsa, that was their suggestion. I just didn't know how that project would be received by those who are interested in collecting/owning & using 86's. Bottom line, I don't want to really screw up this gun...then again, maybe to some I already have by re-doing the muzzle.

[BenTolson]

Hi Ben...You name sounds very familiar, but I disremember from where.

I used to work for National Supply Corp. (30 years ago)...it was an oilfield supply business. I was based in Anchorage but traveled throughout the oil belt (Louisiana, Texas & Oklahoma) repairing & assembling wellheads. I'm a long time knife collector too...Marble's & M.S.A.'s..(big surprise, huh?) and also Randall's & R.H. Ruana's. I'm currently on the board of the Oregon Knife Collectors and am in charge of their annual knife show. In real life I also pastor a small country church...hence the need for hobbies that have a positive impact financially..

[Mike Hunter]

Ben

Sorry I didn't respond earlirer to your thread, just don't come on this site as often as I would like.

I do make barrels for the old Winchester lever rifles, if you would like to discuss more drop me a line at MDHunter@centurytel.net or 417 453-6445, hopefully I can answer and questions that you may have

V/R

Mike Hunter

[BenTolson]

Mike...
thanks for the contact info...I'll email you tonight.
ben

[Malamute]

Mike does excellent work, I have a barrel he made for me, it's beautiful!

He can probably splice a magazine tube back to length, finding a takedown mag tube isnt as easy as a non-takedown.

Your gun has a lot of character, even without doing serious restoration work to it it would be a great shooter and gun to hunt with. It will certainly be easier to carry with the shoter barrel and mag tube.

I think you probably helped it by cleaning up the crooked cut and crown job, and resetting the front sight.

[hfcable]

Welcome! Very nice first post, and nice rifle. [/quotep]
thanks...
I'm not a lever gun addict, I do come accross some nice pieces from time to time...my main addiction is the 1908 Model Marble Game Getter...

i recently lucked into a nearly complete box of cartridges , circa WWI vintage, for the game getter ......they were in a pile of stuff i bought most of which was old shotgun shells,etc. i will try to post a picture. really neat box , fairly well intact, and most of the cartridges are there!
this is in the old red winchester two piece box! like this one:

[BenTolson]

Nice find. What type of shells... round ball or shot? A nice Winchester or Remington box w/ all rounds intact will bring $300-$500. A nice Robinhood Gamegetter ammo box will bring over $1000. I was lucky to pick up two boxes at Tulsa last month...not in as nice of shape though.