45 ACP and Whitetails

[TedH]

I didn't have a lot of opportunity to hunt during our rifle season, so I am planning on getting in at least a couple more days during our "Alternative Methods" season in December. It used to be the Muzzleloader season, but they have added handguns and other methods now. At first I thought I would use my S&W 629 44 mag, or possibly the 357 Blackhawk. Then I got to thinking it would be interesting to try and harvest a deer with my 1911. The 45 is plenty accurate, it will shoot a full mag into a couple inches at 25 yards, so I feel confident I could put the bullet where it needs to go in normal bowhunting ranges. Question is, how would a 230 gr. Gold Dot @ 900 fps do on a deer? I'm thinking it would do just fine with a shot in the heart lung area.

[Hobie]

I think it would do fine, too.

[earlmck]

Certainly will kill the deer. But if you happen to need to trail him for a ways after the shot, there is no substitute for having an exit wound to go along with an entry wound. I'd worry I might not get an exit with the 45 and would therefore opt for the 44 mag.

[Griff]

Deer... human... structurally similar, even if quite different in the details. What Hobie said.

[horsesoldier03]

I would opt for a 200 grain LSWC or RNFP over a hollowpoint. I have no doubt that you would get full penetration pushing it to 950 to 975 FPS. Youd be good to 50 yrds for sure.

[Blaine]

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=214

[AkRay]

Paco wrote about killing an eland with two shots of ball ammo from his 45 ACP to feed a starving village.

"Over those years, I have never been far from a 45 ACP in the 1911 format of some make or model. I probably killed the largest animal ever killed with a 45 and military ball ammo. In Africa in the late 1950s, I was training the military small arms professionals that would train the military forces of the nations that received our small arms. While out in the field in East Africa, we ran into a village that had no males in it. Just women, and they were either very young or old...no in between. They were starving, so my driver and I ran an Eland. I placed two rounds from my 45 into it's right side, thru the lungs. I figure it was somewhere between 1500 to 2000 pounds on the hoof...and those ladies sure knew what to do with it, when we dragged it with the jeep back into their village. We notified the authorities of the situation. They figured it was slavers that hit the village took all the men and boys."

The entire article may be found here: http://fiveshot.org/backissues/paco/45acp.htm

[Pisgah]

It will kill them -- dead. I say this from experience, not guesswork. Place the shot, and they will not leave the spot where they are standing.

[Grizz]

I would opt for a 200 grain LSWC or RNFP over a hollowpoint. I have no doubt that you would get full penetration pushing it to 950 to 975 FPS. Youd be good to 50 yrds for sure.

ditto

Blaine has the idea I think.

I like this bullet a lot too, it's what I carry in .380 and 9mm. Better penetration than JHP.





I think one of the early uses of the 45 was to stop cavalry charges. Or did I dream that one?

Grizz

[Old Ironsights]

As long as it's "legal" where you will be (and it's "not" in many, many places), then go for it. Deer/Human same same.

Somewhere I have an ACP load that needs a 20# mainspring and buffer buffer to shoot safely, but it's as far as you can go w/o going to .45 WinMag...

[86er]

Ted is a friend of mine and he is an experienced hunter, so with all due respect: I don't like it when people want to "try out" something on live animals if that something has not been proven with a long history and track record of success. With a minimum amount of information and history, it is hard to say the performance will be satisfactory for a quick kill. I get folks at the ranch all the time that say "I want to see what this XXX will do on a deer (or whatever animal)". Personally, I think this is disrespectful to the animals and moreso a truly wild animal. In the case of a free range animal the opportunity to fix a problem and recover the animal is greatly diminished since they can go virtually anywhere including where you may not be able to. With that said, I do believe the 45 ACP is fully capable of taking a whitetail deer under archery-type conditions. That is: 30 yards or less, undisturbed deer, broadside only shot, no rain or heavy moisture now or tomorrow (in case of a tracking job). As far as the bullet, I personally would want to experiment on non-live animals and other media to determine the right load, including chronographed velocity and bullet performance/penetration. I am a big believer in using the best tool you have for the job but I can also appreciate the curiosity of using something else. Ted is an ethical, meticulous hunter and I am sure he will get this done in a manner that puts success in his favor. Report back your experience!

[Old Ironsights]

I don't think he was looking for a 50+ yd shot with a 1911 Joe...

All of these UberCartridges (including mine) are great in some respects, but if *I* were going to use a 1911 for deer where legal I would be using RNL pushed as fast as I could without leading.

Nothing fancy, not ubergildedhollowgoldpointed dot bullets, just LEAD.

If anything, a .45ACP is mimicking a .45 Muzzleloader in most respects, so SOFT LEAD, with its perfect expansion every time (and .45 hole) would be my choice.

[Blaine]

A bit of checking, and I confirmed what I was thinking. That 44-40, and 45 Colt, and .44 special original loads are about the same as a 45 acp. With a good solid, I don't understand the trepidation. (I'm asking in ignorance, not from experience)

[Grizz]

A bit of checking, and I confirmed what I was thinking. That 44-40, and 45 Colt, and .44 special original loads are about the same as a 45 acp. With a good solid, I don't understand the trepidation. (I'm asking in ignorance, not from experience)

I have that exact same question. If 45 colt in the good old days could take deer reliably, then.......

[Old Ironsights]

I'm not sure the "problem" is the cartridge, but the firearm.

Most .45ACP firearms, 1911's included, are simply not set up for ethical GAME TAKING.

I don't care WHERE I hit a BG, so long as he lies down and cries.

Ethical Hunting is a different matter.

That said, a well trained ethical shooter who knows his equipment (Hi Ted) is MORE than capable of ethically taking a Deer with a .45ACP.

(FWIW, I have lived in States where it ie "illegal" to use a .45 ACP, & .44 C&B to take a deer, but TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE to take a Deer with .45Colt "Cowboy Loads"... go figure... .Gov is Dumb.)

I'm sure that Ted would do fine with a .22 Short if he wanted to... but WE Levergunners Ain't Normal...

(Where's my Rossi .410 Lever... I've got an Elk to shoot...... )

[horsesoldier03]

A bit of checking, and I confirmed what I was thinking. That 44-40, and 45 Colt, and .44 special original loads are about the same as a 45 acp. With a good solid, I don't understand the trepidation. (I'm asking in ignorance, not from experience)

I have that exact same question. If 45 colt in the good old days could take deer reliably, then.......

I agree 100%! Ballistically, there is little difference with the three. Last year or possibly 2 years ago now, we had 2 large cow elk that were poached with a 9mm handgun. I read comments on the report and the elk in question traveled less than 50 yrds from where they were shot.

I have seen several hunters have plenty of gun and not be able to but the bullet in the boiler room. If you have good sights and have mastered a 1911 and shoot it frequently, 50 yrds is easliy a realistic shot. I am not advocating that anyone not be responsible, however, ballistically the gun is capable. My daughters last deer was shot from a .44 with a muzzle velocity of 1500 fps at 75 yrds and it dropped a nice sized buck dead in his tracks.

We have had this debate before, no amount of power will compensate for a poorly placed shot.

[horsesoldier03]

Paco wrote about killing an eland with two shots of ball ammo from his 45 ACP to feed a starving village.

The entire article may be found here: http://fiveshot.org/backissues/paco/45acp.htm

Excellent article!!!

[44shooter]

I agree with 86er on this. While deer and people are similiar in size. A deer has a much thicker, tougher hide and on average a tougher musculature. Think about it. They have to walk everywhere, jump fences and ditches, and maybe run from dogs and what ever else scares them everyday. They sure can go a lot further, faster after being fatally shot. A bullet designed to stop a felon's aggression, may not be suitable for reliably penetrating a deer's vitals and, preferably, exiting to provide a blood trail.

Also, standard 230 grain RN ball has a reputation for not tracking straight after impact.

If I were going to do this, I would try to approach standard 45 Colt ballistics. That is a flatnose or JHP bullet weighing between 240-260 grains designed for the 45 Colt and pushed to at least 850 fps. The OP's stated limitations to archery ranges seems reasonable to me.

Just my armchair opinion. I haven't done it, but I read a lot.

[TedH]

You all have brought up some good points, and that is just what I was after. Let me be very clear though, I will not attempt a shot at any animial, be it a squirrel or a deer, if I'm not 100% confident I can place that bullet exactly where I want it. Based on what I saw this past weekend while rifle hunting, I can place my portable stand in a very high traffic spot and have a shot under 25 yards, more likely 15-20 yards. I have done some testing of different 45 acp bullets in the past, and I have an idea of what will work. If I choose the 45 acp, it will likely be the 230 gr. Hornady XTP loaded to +P levels running 920 fps from my 1911.

[Hobie]

As I said, I'm not worried about Ted. George Nonte shot a bear with a .45 ACP with the then relatively new HPs and it worked. I'm sure the current crop of projectiles is even more effective.

[jh45gun]

Deer are easy to kill if the bullet is placed in the right spot. Poachers for years dropped deer one shot kills with a 22 LR the 22 WRF and the 22 Mag. I have no doubt a 45 ACP would work well with a lead bullet that penetrates. Or the Semi Jacketed Flat Point bullets used for the 45 Colt. I would stay with a FP bullet round nose bullets just slide on through. I have had that experience shooting a couple of deer using a 30 cal cast bullet. The round nose bullet acted like a FMJ bullet and went on through with little damage though I did get the deer. The next deer I shot I used a bullet with a flat point and the results were much better the bullet mushroomed did its job much better. Of course the 45 is bonna make a bigger hole than the 30 caliber but it is my opinion FP bullets is better than RN for hunting. I plan on using my Ranch hand using Federal 225 grain Jacketed FP bullets for short range WT hunting but I would feel as comfortable using my 255 grain SWC also.

[dbord130]

I load my cast 200 grain swc over 7.5 grains of unique powder. Chronographed from my colt 1911 average 1099 fps. Load is from Lyman 49 manual. Five days ago I shot a doe (aproximate weight was 100 pounds) at sixty yards. Doe was hit just above the heart thru both lungs,with complete penitration. She walked 20 yards and fell over. The amount of damage was surprizing to say the least. This was the first time I used the 45 acp for hunting. I will use it again.

[horsesoldier03]

Great Job!

[Lastmohecken]

Well, I might as well throw my 2 cents worth in. The truth is you can kill a deer with about anything. It's bullet placement that counts for the most. I have seen deer dropped with a CCI 22 Long Mini-Cap with a brain shot and that is a lot less gun then even a .22 short.

I have also poked a lot of deer with a prefect lung shot, with all sorts of calibers, even once with a .375 HH mag with a 275gr Speer softpoint leaving the barrel at close to 2900fps and saw them run as far as a 150yds before going down. They can go plenty far enough to be hard to find before running out of oxygen.

I did shoot a doe with a 45ACP with a 200gr Hollowpoint, lung shot, one time. It didn't go very far, but I was not very impressed with damage it done, however I was shooting a lightweight commander with a 4-1/4" barrel so velocity was not probably much over 800fps. I would not shoot one at all with a roundnose hardball round, unless it was a survival situation, and frankly judging by the wound channel, I would probably just as soon use a cast lead semi-wadcutter Keith style as anything.

One thing that blows my mind is reading about all of the DRT kills with broadside hits with anything, I know it happens but I have also seen too many deer run a ways with all kinds of guns when shot thru the lungs or even heart shots. If you don't hit the brain or spine, or close to it, like a high shoulder shot, then the animal very likely can and will go a ways, maybe only 10 to 30yds but sometimes a lot farther.

Still yet, a careful shot can take a lot of deer with a 45ACP, but I would expect to have to track some of them a little ways, unless you shoot them all with a brain shot. You know it's funny, but I have shot a few deer that went only about 30 to 40yds with a broadside lung shot with an arrow tipped with a 3-bladed Wasp broadhead, and seen almost the same identical hit with a 130gr softpoint from a .270 Win and the deer ran a hundred yards.

[Grizz]

One thing that blows my mind is reading about all of the DRT kills with broadside hits with anything, I know it happens but I have also seen too many deer run a ways with all kinds of guns when shot thru the lungs or even heart shots.

I've made a lot of DRT shots using a 44 mag in a handgun and a carbine. My son made tons of meat with the carbine.

You are right about heart shots not being stoppers. They will run until they hit a tree or trip, even with the heart blown apart like a balloon.

The double lung shots that I made with 25/20 were disappointing to say the least. But the 44 mag really is a hammer on deer, at least for the ones I've seen.

My preferred shot is the head and I took that one about half the time. The rest of the time I took the most lethal shot available. The only runners were the heart shots.

[44shooter]

Let us know how I turns out. I have a lot of 230 grain XTPs. If they penetrate straight, I might carry a 45 Auto when doing treestand maintenance or small game hunting.

Still thinking about a lead 45 Colt bullet in AR cases for my Thunder Ranch revolver though. I know that will work.

[2571]

"They will run until they hit a tree or trip, even with the heart blown apart like a balloon. "

I defended a lawsuit wherein a cop shot a 160# man with a .357 heart shot. Bad guy ran a block & a half before collapsing. Cop thought he had missed the guy completely. Coroner did not think the incident was unusual.

[Blaine]

Let us know how I turns out. I have a lot of 230 grain XTPs. If they penetrate straight, I might carry a 45 Auto when doing treestand maintenance or small game hunting.

Still thinking about a lead 45 Colt bullet in AR cases for my Thunder Ranch revolver though. I know that will work.

I'm not sure this is the same, but, when I compared penetration of 230 fmj with 230 HydraShok, the Federals expanded perfectly in the Seattle Phone Book, and went about 3/4 of the way. The fmj, shed their jacket about half way, and blasted a very serious hole in the back of the book. IMO (worth what it costs ya ) the JHPs are for safe self defense, and the FMJs are for superior penetration. I would take fmj out in the woods over JHPs. Let me qualify this be saying that the only game I have taken with 230 fmj are grouse....Ya can eat right up to the hole. I screwed up and forgot to take out the JHPs I use for social work, and it was red mist, and the feathers are still in the wind someplace after 10 years FWIW, they penetrate in water filled milk jugs.

[2X22]

I guess I'll throw in my $.02 since I hunted exclusively with handguns for about 30 years, taking many dozens of deer, elk and bear. 90% were taken with .44 mag and specials, quite a few with SS's but also 4 deer with the .45acp.

Three were taken with a 200gr Lyman cast bullet from straight WW's and 6grs of Unique. The first, a spike buck was taken at about 40 yards right behind the shoulder about 2/3 of the way up, jumped at the shot, stood for an instant and collapsed. The second was closer to about 75-80 yards. A forked horn and laying in his bed when I spotted him. He never knew I was there and when he stood up and started to stretch a few minutes later I had a good rest, his nose hit the ground at the shot with hardly a twitch. The third was one I jumped out of heavy brush, he knew I was there long before he spooked, he made it about 30 yards and I took him right through the front shoulders. He was still alive when I got to him but died before a finisher could be administered. In all three instances the bullet exited.

The fourth was a really nice buck that I hadn't prepared for, I was on my way home from town and had my 1911 with me. This time I was loaded with a 255gr cast FP and again, 6grs of Unique. A nice thickhorned 3 point was chasing a doe across my driveway when I turned of the little road I live off of. I shut off my truck, grabbed my .45 and headed into the heavy timber after them. It took about a 1/4 mile or more before I caught up with them and she had just scooted out from underneath him after being freshly bred and the bullet took him behind the near shoulder 2/3 of the way up and exited in front of the off shoulder. At the shot the doe took off like a scalded cat and the buck attempted to follow, which last for about 5 steps.

The gun in question is the only .45 I own, an Auto Ordinance I bought in the early 80's and had just a wee bit of work done to Nice adjustable sights I can see very well even with my older eyes and will keep 7 shots inside of 1 1/2" at 30 yards if I am having a good shooting day