HI-JACKED TOPIC: what's the attraction of the 38/40?

[1894c]

HI-JACKED TOPIC:what's the attraction of the 38/40? Never fired one, nor do i know anyone who has one, but my limited exposure to you guys that own one has caught my interest. so if you don't mind i would like a brief levergun education in the Winchester 38/40 (hunting applications?). What has my interest is that the duty caliber of the LE Agency i serve uses the .40S&W, which seems similar. i want to thank you in advance for your patience and instruction... :)

[gundownunder]

I shoot an 1894 in 357 but recently a member of our club bought a 92 Winchester in 38-40 and he got more grunt out of it than I could get out of my 357. We were both using 180gr bullets and reloading data suggested he was getting about 150 fps more than me and probably had room for a little more while I was maxed out. Performance on 200 yard rams confirmed that he had more grunt as he slammed every ram without any fuss while I consistently ring a few with my load.
He did pay a penalty though, crescent butt plates bite when recoil increases so he went home bruised when I didn't.

If you reload you will get lots of power from the 38-40 (Lees second edition lists a 180 gr at 1745 fps) but you have the same issues as other bottle necked dash cartridges with regard to thin necks getting mangled by heavy handed use of the press, if you already do 32-20 or 44-40 you know what I mean. If I bought one it would be for nostalgia, not grunt, as the 44mag and several other modern calibers would beat it with ease.

[awp101]

The .38-40 is a .40 cal bullet loaded over 38g of BP (backwards nomenclature from "usual" BP cartridge naming). The .40S&W is the 10mm cartridge cut down. Ergo, the .38-40 was the original 10mm.

It's appealing to me simply because it's one of those old school rounds that usually only guncranks or historians are familiar with rather than the general shooting populace. But then again, I like Studebakers too so it may just be me...

[EdinCT]

They were a popular deer rifle in the North East. In the 1873 at 1300 fps with 180 gr lead it was said to do fine for deer from those that used it and with a 1892 with hi speed loads about 1750 fps it was even better. The deer I have shot with one ran 20 yards or so and left a heavy blood trail. What more can one ask I think of it has a 357 +.
Its what my grandparents kept behind the door and was the big rifle on the farm. There is a book that used to be sold by fur,fish and game mag. by a E. Woodcock. Mr Woodcock was a trapper(bear) and market hunter (deer). He said his 38 wcf never failed him and even though he tried many others(more powerful) he always went back to it. He used the black powder load because it was cheaper and worked for him.

[Don McDowell]

When loaded proper the 38wcf is closer to the 10mm than it is the 40 ballisticly.
It's a peppy handgun round, and had a pretty fair reputation as a lawmans side arm.
It was billed originally by Winchester as being able to do about anything the 44 wcf could do , only offered less recoil.
I have a handgun in the chambering, but not a rifle, which is something I have been on the prod to change, but the rifles are a bit hard to find whenever I've got the money..

[Gobblerforge]

As I understand it, Winchester was making the 44WCF and things were fine. However there was a whole class of hunters and shooters, just like today, that were of the mind that 30 something calibers were better for all around bullets. Winchester, at the end of the 1870's, developed the 38WCF to satisfy and sell to some of that market. The bullet mic'd out to .401 but in the gun world there has always been an artists licence and it was called the 38. As for the powder, the case was in fact loaded to 40 grains of black powder as the end result of trial and design. What they had then was the 44WCF case necked down a little further and a lighter 38 caliber bullet with less recoil going faster than the 44 bullet and delivering about the same energy as the 44 caliber bullet. Colt and others also produced guns in 38WCF but some didn't want to put Winchesters name on thier product so names like 38-40 were used as caliber designation.
I like the 38WCF but I reload so cost is not an issue. The only problem with the 38WCF for me is I collect spent bullets and these just go through and through. Darn it.
Gobbler
Some years ago......

[bdhold]

I think it was more popular than given credit. The best '73 collection I know, which is in Corpus Christi, 75% of the weapons are .38-40

[dennie]

I seem to recall that when John Wayne started making westerns he used his own Colt's SAA in 38-40.
dennie

[Griff]

The .357Mag of the late 19th and early 20th centuries!

[6pt-sika]

I had an early Marlin 1894 of if I remmember correctly about 1908 vintage that was 38-40 . Gun had a 24" octagon barrel and a full length mag tube . It was nice enough and shot well enough with the RCBS 40-180 PB bullet pushed with Unique . But it never was one of my most favourite . I always liked the 32-20 and 44-40 more .

[cshold]

[pwl44m]

My only attraction is the WCF and the Hyphen and the fact that it is an old Caliber - Cowboy if U will. I hve 2 Colt SAAs and a Win 92 chambered for it. Mine will never be used for Hunting, just the fact that I have them satisfies Me. Get one, You won't be dissapointed.
Perry

[Blaine]

I sure miss midwest whitetails......

[6pt-sika]

Very intresting !

What book was the story from ?
Ah I see the 28th Edition of The Gun Digest !

I may just have that edition myself !

Nope I've the 26th edition and the 29th edition but not the 27th or 28th

[Retro]

Handloader magazine had an article on this recently. Well, on the 38 WCF but... that's the same thing

"A point was probably reached where it became obvious that somebody was going to offer a revolver chambered for a smaller caliber, lighter-recoiling cartridge on a big case."

and

"By picking .38 it sounded a lot smaller than .44 or .45, but didn’t look much smaller. Any company thinking of introducing a dimensionally different round could only make a noticeably smaller case and caliber, which would make a large-frame revolver too heavy. A larger caliber, a real .40 or .41, would look like the .38 WCF or the .44 WCF! It was best to just chamber Winchester’s cartridge, and so it came to pass."

Buy the magazine, read the whole thing. Gil Sengel's point is that it was all marketing, that the cartridge actually doesn't have much of a place. I am inclined to agree, I don't think there's any real-world difference between the 38-40 and the 44-40.

In a similar way, Winchester patented a whole bunch of JMB designs they had no intention of manufacturing -- just so nobody else could either.

On the other hand, I do enjoy my Marlin '94 in 38 WC, erm, 38-40

[mergus]

Its my fascination with old guns that brought me to the 45-70 and 32-30. Likewise, it brought me to owning 3 Colt New Service revolvers. My desire to own a Marlin 1894 and a Colt New Service in 38-40 is an extension of that fascination. I have to imagine the Colt would be pleasant to shoot even with stout handloads and and the Marlin strikes me as a good candiate for either a peep sight or a red dot sight in order to keep the handy to carry and quick to use.

Mergus

[gak]

All I know is I've been itching to convert my .357 New Vaquero, as a convertible, maybe even "triple threat" with .40 and 10mm cylinders as well. Then of course it has to be matched to a levergun! Make mine a 92. Amongst modern offerings, Chiappa makes--or has made--a 92 (Taylor's still lists barrels in its parts list) as has Winchester (Davidson's run). Maybe a Rossi conversion is in order!
The prospect of any of the above makes me drool! Along with testimonials here, my Coltsmith--one of the tops in the country--really likes the .38WCF. Good enough for me.

[1894c]

i deeply appreciate all of the info and input...the cartridge interests me simply on the fact that it similar to our duty round, which has an amazing real world track-record against those who would seek bodily harm against those who are sworn to protect and to serve...i also like the fact, as many of you have mentioned, that it's an old out-dated cartridge--i enjoy the 30/30 for the same reasons---THANK YOU... :)

[KirkD]

I've owned several 38-40's (aka 38 WCF). I don't know what it is about them, but maybe it is that cartridge .....



Winchester used to put out a 'High Velocity' version which fired a 180 grain bullet at 1,770 fps.

Right now, I'm between 38-40's but am hoping for a real nice original Model 1892 at some point. Here's a photo of my most recent one, which has now departed the fold due to needing the $$ to acquire a real nice '73 in 44 WCF. ....

[6pt-sika]

All I know is I've been itching to convert my .357 New Vaquero, as a convertible, maybe even "triple threat" with .40 and 10mm cylinders as well.

You don't need to do a conversion . Keep your eyes open and you may be able to get your hands on one of the Ruger Blackhawk "Buckeye Specials" that was dual cylindered for 38-40 and 10mm . I had one of the limited edition Buckeye Specials in 32-20 and 32 H&R MAG , almost got another cylinder chambered for the 327 Federal but I never did and finally traded the revolver off still supposedly NIB !

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =313711107

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

i deeply appreciate all of the info and input...the cartridge interests me simply on the fact that it similar to our duty round, which has an amazing real world track-record against those who would seek bodily harm against those who are sworn to protect and to serve...i also like the fact, as many of you have mentioned, that it's an old out-dated cartridge--i enjoy the 30/30 for the same reasons---THANK YOU...

Yep, back in the day the 38-40 was marketed as the in-between flatter shooting LE cal. In between the 32-20 and the 44-40 much like the 40 S&W is marketed as the in-between the 9mm and 45 acp.

The 92 platform makes a fine levergun for hotrodding it to 10mm levels too.

I recently finished this one. It's a reline to 38-40 with a side-mounted Malcolm 4x

[elmo123]

I picked up a nice 1892 in 38 wcf about five years ago. The bore is a little rough so I use jacketed bullets for the high velocity loads because the cast bullets don't group that well. I bought a cannelure tool and use bullets for the 40 S&W, I own 3 .40's from my law enforcement days. My best cast load is the Lyman 180 cast bullet and 6.0 of Trail Boss. The rifle is a pleasure to shoot, much nicer than my 1892 short rifle in .44 Magnum. I have not tried any black powder loads yet. The only problem with the high velocity loads is the case life. You only get about 2-3 loadings before the head separates. I think the fascination is the old rifles chambered in this caliber. I would not hesitate to deer hunt with it. I have killed 3 deer with my 4" .357 magnum S&W duty revolver so the 38-40 would suffice if the range was under 100 yards.

[gak]

All I know is I've been itching to convert my .357 New Vaquero, as a convertible, maybe even "triple threat" with .40 and 10mm cylinders as well.

You don't need to do a conversion . Keep your eyes open and you may be able to get your hands on one of the Ruger Blackhawk "Buckeye Specials" that was dual cylindered for 38-40 and 10mm . I had one of the limited edition Buckeye Specials in 32-20 and 32 H&R MAG , almost got another cylinder chambered for the 327 Federal but I never did and finally traded the revolver off still supposedly NIB !

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =313711107

Thanks! I'm aware of the Buckeye as well as the limited run of Vaquero .38-40/.40 convertibles and almost bit on one of the latter. I'm just enamored with the idea of a mid-frame .38-40 especially combined with the idea of .40. and 10mm cylinders--"just because"--and specifically in a fixed sight "cowboy" format. I admit zero "need" for this! I've got a passel of .44 Mags and Specials, and my Montado is enough for a .357 SA for me. The 5.5" .357 NV is a perfect platform for this! Just waiting for that money truck to pull up in front of the house

About the .38-40, I also like that the .44/.45 gunbelt loops still will work! Win-win.

[cas]

Of course in the Ruger you can load it up to match (or surpass) the .41 Magnum.

I keep those loads away from my Winchester though, it being almost 100 years old.