Trapdoor resurrection and idea thread - update 3

[awp101]

Rather than jumping into FatJack's TD thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43359), I thought I'd start one for the TD that made it's way into my safe thanks to a member who saw a WTB/T ad I placed earlier in the summer looking for single shot projects.

Here's a few quick pics:





Even though the breech block, etc aren't pictured, I think it's all there except for the washers that go between the stock and the head of the lock screws and the bore is very nice for it's age. In addition to the surface rust, it appears there might be some very fine paint overspray like it was near something being painted. The stock is dirty and dry but has an 1892 dated cartouche, what appears to be a rack number (or numbers) and some other stampings that I don't recall at the moment.

I suppose the first thing I need to find out is how to take the whole thing apart for clean up. After that I'll need ideas for cleaning up the stock and metal without damaging the markings.

I'll try to keep this updated as I go along but I can tell you right now progress and updates will be painfully slow due to my schedule and the temps still being near or over 100*F (and you can add 10-15*F to get the temp in my garage... ).

So, let's get the advice rolling! Thanks!

[gamekeeper]

Cool, looking forward to seeing how it turns out...

[Pitchy]

Cool, looking forward to seeing how it turns out...

+1

Was a Gander MT store today and looked at a real nice one like that one.
It was in nice shape with sling for 1,500.00 but i don`t have a clue if it`s worth that much.

[pwl44m]

That looks like a cool project. I had one that the barrel had been cut plus the stock shortened,I think They were trying to make a Carbine. The Bore was nasty nasty so I just got rid of it.
Perry

[Ben_Rumson]

Ever hear of the Nickel trick?.... Get yourself a standard 5 cent piece .. a Nickel...And some Hoppes bore cleaner... Put a little Hoppes on the gun metal.. Dip the Nickel in some Hoppes too & then start scrubbing away at the rust... You will find it takes away the rust & leaves the bluing... That's why it's called a trick!.. The "Nickel" is actually plated zinc and so soft it won't harm the bluing, but has enough bite to take off the rust...It aint fast... but it's sure...

[Rusty]

Never heard of that before Ben. Thank you.

[awp101]

Me either Rusty, thanks Ben!

I've heard of using a penny to scrape away rust (no mention of Hoppes though) but not a nickle and Hoppes. I generally use CorrosionX, I wonder if it would work as well or the same as the Hoppes?

[Bill in Oregon]

Andrew, you go girl! Er ... I mean, fella.
Always nice to see a trapdoor get some much deserved TLC. You know from the Brit militaria forums that the Kramer restoration products are supposed to be awesome.
I'll be using them on a Nepalese Snider and Gahendra this fall.
Don't know about bore condition, but I had a thoroughly buffed and sanded trapdoor a while back with ZERO rifling left. A gunsmith friend relined it with a .400/.408 barrel and chambered it to .40-82. Wish I still had that rifle.

[Ben_Rumson]

A Penny now days is plated zinc too...

[Old Time Hunter]

Make a parts list, will post a diagram later, it is not on this computer.

Lodgewood Mfg would probably have parts: www.lodgewood.com

Once you get all the hardware off the stock, clean the stock wih oven cleaner...might take a couple of times. Then wash with hot water and Murphy's oil soap. Once dry, hand sand lightly to take the fur off, then rub with 00 steel wool. Your cartouche should not even get touched by this method. Then use multiple coats of BLO (drying between coats, and rubbing with steel wool), final coat can be either a couple of coats of Tru-Oil or a good coat of gun wax.

While the stock is drying, I would take the rear site off the barrel, then rub the entire barrel with 0000 steel wool and Blue Wonder (washes off with water). You will be impressed how that gets rid of the surface rust yet leaves the plum. After you wipe it off and it is dry, hand rub a good oil into the metal. You can do this on the trigger guard, lock plate, barrel bands, and butt plate too.

That is all I did to this one:

[awp101]

Thanks OTH, I'll take all the diagrams and parts lists I can get Nice TD to boot!

OK, so a penny or nickle will work.

Andrew, you go girl! Er ... I mean, fella.

Errrr, yeah...

Always nice to see a trapdoor get some much deserved TLC. You know from the Brit militaria forums that the Kramer restoration products are supposed to be awesome.

Ooooh, good point. I'd forgotten about them!

Don't know about bore condition, but I had a thoroughly buffed and sanded trapdoor a while back with ZERO rifling left. A gunsmith friend relined it with a .400/.408 barrel and chambered it to .40-82. Wish I still had that rifle.

I have this odd notion that a .22 insert is needed if it is feasible....

[Old Time Hunter]

awp, here is the diagram:

[awp101]

Great OTH, thanks!

[awp101]

OK, I may pop for some of this and give it a go: http://kramerize.com/q_a.lasso

Here's a thread from an actual user who tried several methods on a Nepalese Gahendra: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... e-restorer

[awp101]

Is this a rod bayonet?


If it is, is it unusual to find one on an 1884? Does it help date it better?

[awp101]

After being on the back burner for several months, I finally got the urge to work with the old girl today.

I got the breech block assembled and installed, the mainspring reattached to the lock (don't ask ), and the lock plate and trigger guard installed. OK, more like setting in the stock since I need the tg screws and the lock plate screws plus washers. Lodgewood has everything but the tg screws so I'll check the other usual suspects as well. I'll probably go for the repop lock screws and washers ($26 vs $66 for the originals).

Just for giggles I took a couple of once fired hulls and tried to chamber them. They fit fine so I dropped the hammer to check the firing pin. Sweet Mother of Pearl! When that hammer hits, brother it HITS! The cases had these dainty firing pin marks from either a Marlin 1895CB or Buffalo Classic Handi. The TD left absolutely NO DOUBT those cases had been struck and with AUTHORITY!

I did manage to get a little clean up done trying to find the serial number. I found it and it's 5421XX. Anyone have a reference that can help date that number? I'd greatly appreciate it.

An interesting discovery was made as well. The barrel bands are marked with a "U". What caught my eye is it's in the same font as the same marking on the bands of the 7mm Spanish Remington Rolling Block I have that spent time south of the border (no idea if it was Mexico, CA or SA). So I don't know if the RRB bands were replacements or if it was surplused to one of the aforementioned places and rebarreled to 7mm Spanish (but that doesn't make much sense).

[Malamute]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the U indicates that that side goes on the same side as the spring that holds it in place.

Try Springfield Sporters for parts, if they have them, they are very reasonably priced. Sarco may have them also. There's a guy in NY state that had trapdoor parts also, it may be the name you had earlier, I didnt look at the site link. Whatever you showed before sounded like LOT for the lock screws and washers, even if original. Dixie used to have a lot of original and repro parts also, not sure what they have left any more.

Shoud be a fun shooter when its done.

[awp101]

That makes sense on the marking, thanks!

For those of you keeping score at home, here's what I've found so far.

Lock plate screws:
Trapdoor Collector - $7/ea
Trapdoors.com - $19/ea
DGW - $3.50/ea
Lodgewood - $8/ea (repro)

Lock plate washers:
Numrich - $3.85/ea
Lodgewood - $25/ea (original) or $5/ea (repro)
Trapdoors.com - $6/ea

Trigger guard screws:
Trapdoors.com - $10/ea

So the parts can be sourced but only one place has them all. They happen to be at the top end of the pricing but it may be worth it just to have the shipping combined for one order. They're order page wasn't working right the other day so I'll probably have to call/email and see what the shipping will be. Springfield Sporters doesn't list TD parts and I'd simply prefer to not deal with Sarco.

OTOH, they aren't exactly making the original parts anymore so it may be a case of "it is what it is".

Malamute, it sure has the makings of going to be a hoot for sure! I'm already getting the urge to either find a carbine length version (it'll probably have to be a cut down sporter type) or grab a 22-24" Handi barrel. The problem with the Handi is it won't have quite the panache of that Trapdoor mechanism...

[Hobie]

We have a rod bayonet 1884 in the militaria shop. Pretty nice rifle. These bayonets were never successful no matter who tried to make them so...

[JReed]

The hammers on those old guns do hit with authority. The primers out of my rolling block look like Thor himself struck them. But military rifles were always built with heavy springs.

[Bill in Oregon]

AWP: Your rifle was manufactured sometime between April and June of 1892. Mine, 525XXX, was made in July-September of 1891.
Great project! Keep us posted!

[awp101]

Cool! That means the 1892 cartouche'd stock is probably the original stock. Thanks!

JReed, Thor is an apt description. I just didn't expect it from 120+ year old springs.

Hobie you're right, the rod bayonet idea just isn't a great one. Most of the others I've seen are triangular or cruciform shaped. At least those have the potential to do more than just poke a small hole. Not that I'd be happy with ANY additional holes poked in me...

[JReed]

They were made in the day's of when men were men just imagine how heavy those springs were a 120 years ago

[olyinaz]

I liked this suggestion over on the other forum:

For what its worth, I've used the following cleaner on milsurp stocks with good results. Not my formula, it belongs to the "gun stock doctor":

4 ounces of De-natured Alcohol
4 ounces of Turpentine
4 ounces of Raw Linseed Oil (I never tried BLO)
and 1 ounce of Ammonia

In a 20 oz spray bottle. Use 0000 steel wool or green scrubby, wipe with paper towels. Wait a day between treatments and may take 2 or 3 treatments. Linseed oil in cleaner puts down an organic finish as it cleans (that's why you have to wait a day between treatments).

May have to try that on my next gunked up oldie!

[Bill in Oregon]

Oly, good formula. One thing I learned with the Kramer's from all the guys cleaning their Nepal guns is to buy and use bronze wool instead of steel. No harm, no foul.

[awp101]

From what I've read, the Kramer's removes the dirt while maintaining the patina and ground in character.

I want to keep that character but I don't know how that 4 part formula will affect it...and I need a local source for bronze wool. Most places I've asked look at me like a monkey doing a math problem.

[olyinaz]

From what I've read, the Kramer's removes the dirt while maintaining the patina and ground in character.

I want to keep that character but I don't know how that 4 part formula will affect it...and I need a local source for bronze wool. Most places I've asked look at me like a monkey doing a math problem.

My Ace Hardware carries it.

[Old Time Hunter]

I'm tell'n ya'll, oven cleaner works best at lifting all the old oil and dirt out of the stock. Also is good for kill'n weeds around the homestead.

Just sold one of my TD's last weekend...now have seller's remorse. Had a 1880 cartouche, made in 1879...darn, down to only four left...

Will take the '73 (made in '77, high arch w/original firing pin spring-only made a few thousand of them w/spring) 'yote hunting this weekend.

[Bill in Oregon]

Yep, got mine at the local Ace.

[awp101]

Thanks guys, I'll try Ace. You know, the friendly place... Or do they still use that slogan?

Here's the firing pin strikes. The center one was fired in either a Marlin 1895CB or NEF Buffalo Classic:

IMG_3905.JPG

Not sure if I'll call this one Thor or Thor Jr. Depends on how my next project goes.

OTH, I've done the oven cleaner thing before. I used it to clean/de-cosmoline the stock set from a Romanian "G" AK kit (remember when those were $100 or less per kit? Should have bought a crate of them.... ). Yes it pulled everything out of the stock, but that's not what I'm trying to do here. The intent is to preserve rather than restore for the most part. Will I use it on another project that needs to be totally stripped? More than likely, just not THIS project.

BTW, here's a reminder for us old iron shooters to keep an eye on what's going on with and into our rifles:
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB. ... 61409144/0

[awp101]

Ok, time for a periodic update.

Last Wednesday I called a possible local source for the needed screws and washers. No dice but he pointed me to S&S Firearms (http://www.ssfirearms.com) in Glendale, NY. A quick search brought up their website and I placed the order Thursday night. $47 shipped for original trigger guard screws, lockplate washers and repop side plate screws and they arrived in Monday's mail!

I installed them Tuesday night and found I didn't need the washers after all. When I tried to install them, I figured out what I thought were the holes to install them were actually the original washers! I forgot I need a different front sight so I'll have to call them and see if I can exchange the washers for a tall repop sight and pin.

No pics yet (I should be doing research for the speech I have to give tomorrow night in class instead of posting here... ) but just take the pics in the first post and imagine it's all there now.

Next will be a trip to the range (hopefully sometime before the gates of Hell open up around mid-May) and if it's all good to go then she'll get torn down for a good clean up.

[FatJackDurham]

Glad to hear it. I was going to tell you that the shady guy that built my Lemonton out of spare parts also said he had boxes of trapdoor parts. I hesitate to recommend him for ANYTHING, but if you are firm enough, he might have the parts.

How was the bore in that one? It is just 4 years older than mine, at least the receiver is. I read that they would sometimes have there receivers sitting around in boxes for a year or two, already serialized, before finishing the rifle. That is why the cartouche is better.

As far as the "U", I read that that stands for "Up" or that was the drill sergeants explanation. It goes on the right side of the gun, and is supposed to be upright when the gun is held at Order arms. It was stamped on the band that was tapered to the barrel taper so that it would be put on the correct way.

Just passing on what I read on other sites, take it or leave it.

Cant wait to see the groups you put out. I havent done better than 8 inches at 200 yards with mine. Still hoping though....

[awp101]

Cant wait to see the groups you put out. I havent done better than 8 inches at 200 yards with mine. Still hoping though....

I rarely get to 100yds, much less 200. On paper at 100yds with open sights will make me happy...

[Bill in Oregon]

Good to hear you are still on the project Andrew. Don't forget to slug your barrel. Some TDs can be on the generous side, with serious implications for cast bullet accuracy.

[awp101]

Good to hear you are still on the project Andrew. Don't forget to slug your barrel. Some TDs can be on the generous side, with serious implications for cast bullet accuracy.

Will do!

AFA projects, they're all on hold until school wraps up in a couple of weeks. Then I'll get this one out for test firing. If that's satisfactory then I'll go into the cleaning process.

After that I need to fab a sporter forearm and hanger for a .310 Cadet, source a forearm screw for the .218 Cadet, have both breech blocks bushed then refinish both.

Start the clean up on a certain Nepalese Snider ( ) then start loading up for it and a certain M-H carbine ( ).

As long as I'm loading up BP cartridges, I might as well get busy working up loads for a super secret squirrel BP cartridge project and get busy loading for the .41 Swiss some enabler talked me into (I was made a deal I couldn't refuse, honest! ) that I still haven't loaded up for yet.

They say we're put on this Earth to accomplish a certain number of things before we die. At this rate I'm gonna live FOREVER!

[Bill in Oregon]

Boy, I have a whole closet full of "enabled" rifles and shotties and enough unfinished projects to last a century ....