Rossi Lever Action Write Up

[DixieBoy]

Howdy boys. Thought you all might like this write up from Joe on realguns. www.realguns.com/articles/423.htm - DixieBoy

[earlmck]

Hmmm... interesting writeup. I hadn't realized Rossi thinks you should restrict the little 45 Colt rifle to standard old colt pressure loads. I looked at my rifles and all I can see that they did to make it handle the 454 Casull was beef up the magazine attachment (to keep it from jumping off the gun when she sends a 300 grain bullet off at 2000 fps) and whittle down the little cartridge stop at the bottom of the carrier to accommodate the longer cartridge. I'd have real trouble taking their 14,000 psi limitation seriously. There is a lotta' gaposus between 14K standard old Colt loads and 65K 454 Casull loads.

I'd guess their lawyers wrote the 45 Colt verbiage. Is Brazil as overlawyered as we are?

[DixieBoy]

I wondered about that too Earl. I guess if they're selling a pile of them in the States, the answer to your last question is probably "yes."

But then, Ruger tells us not to load up our Blackhawks past SAMMI spec too, don't they ? - DixieBoy

[oneyeopn]

Until I start seeing any signs of overpressurization problems I am going to continue shooting my loads. I bought my rifle from at least the 2nd if not the third owner and didnt have a warranty anyway. As you guys have noted, I believe this is a Lawyer deal. My loads are staying in the Mid 30k's as Earl and I have discussed. I was looking at some other loading data with some different powders and was thinking I could boost my powder charge even more but after this I am just going to stay with what seems to me to be a winning combination in my rifle. The 225gr FTX with a 23gr Charge of H110. This is the load I shoot and I do not recommend it to anyone else! (legaleeze to Cover My Own A**) But my rifle likes it, I like it and until I find something loosening up or wearing badly will continue it for my hunting round. I have a bunch of Freedom Munitions ammo that is loaded to SAAMI specs that run over 1200fps out of my rifle anyway and as I shoot them up I reload them with my recipe. Glad I dont have to worry about the warranty.

[AJMD429]

Other than a slightly larger diameter case, the .44 Mag is a very similar cartridge, that they don't seem to want to water-down. I'm sure theoretically the .45 Colt might blow a gun up at a slightly lower pressure than the .44 Mag, since there is a bit less metal around it, but if the pressures were up there that 'close' I'd not want to be using either gun!

[FLINT]

yes, but look at this quote:

Basically, the same ammunition that can be fired in a Colt Single Action Army or New Model Ruger Vaquero is fine for use in the Rossi R92, but not high pressure ammo that exceeds SAAMI standard and is popularly mislabeled "45 Colt +P"


maybe I'm confused, but you CAN shoot the plus P stuff in the Ruger, correct?

Also, there is an article by Paco Kelly about 45LC in a rifle, and he really goes on about the strength of the new 92 clones and how he can shoot higher pressure stuff in them than either the marlin or especially the winchester rifles chambered for 45LC. I'm pretty sure at one point he mentions that his 45LC rifle is a Rossi.

[ollogger]

I blew the mag tube out a couple inches on my 45 Rossi with a dose of LiL Gun

ollogger

[AJMD429]

I blew the mag tube out a couple inches on my 45 Rossi with a dose of LiL Gun

Tell us more about that...!

[ollogger]

I blew the mag tube out a couple inches on my 45 Rossi with a dose of LiL Gun

Tell us more about that...!

seemed there was alot of recoil with LIL GUN & it slid past the screw & out far nuff it wouldnt chamber
another round, ive loaded other powder with higher psi, but nothing kicks & bellers like LIL GUN

ollogger

[earlmck]

ive loaded other powder with higher psi, but nothing kicks & bellers like LIL GUN

It's not the pressure that causes the magazine tube to jump out of the stops: it is the momentum (mass X velocity). And you get the maximum momentum using Lil' Gun (or H110) at maximum loads. That's why Rossi beefed up the mag tube attachment for the 454 Casull rifle. They didn't have to change anything else -- that model 92 action built with good steel is one stout sucker. Paco was right on that one.

[oneyeopn]

So would I be better going back to longshot or is it a higher pressure powder than the H110 that I am presently using, although I looked at some other loads and they are using way more H110 than I am.

[gundownunder]

Whether the warning about staying within SAAMI spec comes from Rossi in Brazil or from the US distributor I would think it is so they can keep their butts covered. I'm sure that even Rossi in Brazil could be held accountable in some way if they condoned loading outside SAMMI spec and guns started blowing up.

[AJMD429]

Since I respect NKJ more than the 'corporations', I hope he'll chime in soon on this one...

(In the meantime, I'm using 'Ruger' loads without hesitation, but not 'Hot' loads - whatever that really means - really a 'warm' (in between 'Ruger' and 'Cowboy') load in .45 Colt will OSOK whatever is appropriate for the round...)

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

As for the +P 45lc in these guns. I don't know of any manufactorer that will tell you that you can safely use any ammo other than SAAAMI spec ammo. The Lawyers would go nuts.

The 45 lc and the 44mag Rossi are identical other than the obvious bore sizes. If you have any question about +P in a 45 check out Paco's article

45 (long) Colt in Leveraction Rifles

Also, I see a few other discrepancies in the article.

It said there are no plastic parts. Rossi does have a plastic mag tube follower.

Next, I've never seen them call there wood walnut. All I have ever seen it called is Brazilian hardwood. And, I do agree it's not very hard. The finish is iffy too. It appearsa it was doe with an alcohol base stain then just oiled. So, it will bleed with it gets wet. The best option is to take it off and hand rub about 3 coats of Tru-Oil color sanding in between.

Still it's better than the old dark stained stuff they used to use that usually didn't match if you strip it.

Next is the tall semi buckhorn. i see this all the time. It is about right for most of the 357m's and maybe low velocity 45lc (sounds like his was still a little high, though.) but most of the round barrel guns because of muzzle rise tend to shoot too high and that tall semi can't be lowered enough to correct it.

other than that I pretty much agree.

[earlmck]

So would I be better going back to longshot or is it a higher pressure powder than the H110 that I am presently using, although I looked at some other loads and they are using way more H110 than I am.

You're getting the velocity you wanted at a pressure which should be fine in your rifle (around 25K psi) and the accuracy you were hoping for with your H110. Longshot gives you somewhere around 150 fps less velocity at that same 25K psi, though it does it with somewhat less powder. Sounds to me like H110 is a winner for you. Since your rifle is the brass-frame model I would be reluctant to go to any higher pressure loadings, though I don't really have any true knowledge on the brass-frame vs. the steel frame strength differences.

I hadn't shot my 454 Casull Rossi in a long time so I took it along to the range today where I went to sight in a 35 Remington for elk hunting. The Rossi is loaded with 29 grains of Lil' Gun and the 300 grain XTP bullet at 2000 fps (and no doubt 60Kpsi or so). Gun did fine. Earl did not do so fine: that load, in the little 6-pound rifle, hurts when shot from the bench. Fortunately it was close enough to dead on for my purposes and 3 rounds was all I fired. I'm going to start shooting that rifle more, but it is not going to be with that load. Maybe a nice 280 grain cast bullet at about 1400 fps (or wherever I find decent accuracy).

My point, though, is that with the steel frame the Rossi implementation of Mr. Browning's 1892 design handles the same pressures we'd expect in a 300 magnum bolt gun. Of course, the SAAMI spec for the Casull is 65K psi, so maybe it helps if the rifle can read...

[oneyeopn]

Thank You Sir, I will stay right where I am at. I had purchased some new sights from NKJ's Store and put them on my Rossi. I sighted it in and then hadnt shot it for a couple of weeks. I also took it out last night but was shooting Freedom Munitions 255gr FPFMJ bullets. I put 5 shells in the rifle and was shooting a 6 inch gong at 100 yards. 5 out of 5 in the gong. I really really like that rifle with the new sights.

[GregT]

Is that "brass framed" Rossi really "brass"? I doubt it... Try a magnet test and let us know. I think it is brass plated. Let us know so I can update my thinking if need be. (Hard thing to do...)
GregT

[oneyeopn]

Is that "brass framed" Rossi really "brass"? I doubt it... Try a magnet test and let us know. I think it is brass plated. Let us know so I can update my thinking if need be. (Hard thing to do...)
GregT

I just did the magnet test, never thought about it before. The magnet tried real hard to get to the screws but I held it away and went to some pieces of the body that didnt have screws. It turned out to be nonferrous, the magnet had the tiniest bit of pull, I wonder if it is a brass alloy because it doesnt scratch very easy and as often as I have polished it, if it were a plate I would have rubbed through it. When I say the tiniest bit of pull it was very tiny. I used a powerful magnet and what I knew to be steel it was hard to get it off of but the brass body it was hard to feel the pull of the magnet to it. We need to ask our friend "NKJ" about it. I hope he comes along to tell us what it is made of. If not we can start another thread to catch his attention, In fact I will do that now.

[rhead]

Is that "brass framed" Rossi really "brass"? I doubt it... Try a magnet test and let us know. I think it is brass plated. Let us know so I can update my thinking if need be. (Hard thing to do...)
GregT

I just did the magnet test, never thought about it before. The magnet tried real hard to get to the screws but I held it away and went to some pieces of the body that didnt have screws. It turned out to be nonferrous, the magnet had the tiniest bit of pull, I wonder if it is a brass alloy because it doesnt scratch very easy and as often as I have polished it, if it were a plate I would have rubbed through it. When I say the tiniest bit of pull it was very tiny. I used a powerful magnet and what I knew to be steel it was hard to get it off of but the brass body it was hard to feel the pull of the magnet to it. We need to ask our friend "NKJ" about it. I hope he comes along to tell us what it is made of. If not we can start another thread to catch his attention, In fact I will do that now.

If it is very weakly magnetic it could be a cupro nickle alloy. Pure Nickle will be attracted by a magnet though not as strongly as Iron. I have no idea of the strength though it appears that it is strong enough for what you are doing now.

[oneyeopn]

Is that "brass framed" Rossi really "brass"? I doubt it... Try a magnet test and let us know. I think it is brass plated. Let us know so I can update my thinking if need be. (Hard thing to do...)
GregT

I just did the magnet test, never thought about it before. The magnet tried real hard to get to the screws but I held it away and went to some pieces of the body that didnt have screws. It turned out to be nonferrous, the magnet had the tiniest bit of pull, I wonder if it is a brass alloy because it doesnt scratch very easy and as often as I have polished it, if it were a plate I would have rubbed through it. When I say the tiniest bit of pull it was very tiny. I used a powerful magnet and what I knew to be steel it was hard to get it off of but the brass body it was hard to feel the pull of the magnet to it. We need to ask our friend "NKJ" about it. I hope he comes along to tell us what it is made of. If not we can start another thread to catch his attention, In fact I will do that now.

If it is very weakly magnetic it could be a cupro nickle alloy. Pure Nickle will be attracted by a magnet though not as strongly as Iron. I have no idea of the strength though it appears that it is strong enough for what you are doing now.

I started another thread and "Hobie" said the NKJ had said it was a bronze kind of alloy.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Is that "brass framed" Rossi really "brass"? I doubt it... Try a magnet test and let us know. I think it is brass plated. Let us know so I can update my thinking if need be. (Hard thing to do...)
GregT

I just did the magnet test, never thought about it before. The magnet tried real hard to get to the screws but I held it away and went to some pieces of the body that didnt have screws. It turned out to be nonferrous, the magnet had the tiniest bit of pull, I wonder if it is a brass alloy because it doesnt scratch very easy and as often as I have polished it, if it were a plate I would have rubbed through it. When I say the tiniest bit of pull it was very tiny. I used a powerful magnet and what I knew to be steel it was hard to get it off of but the brass body it was hard to feel the pull of the magnet to it. We need to ask our friend "NKJ" about it. I hope he comes along to tell us what it is made of. If not we can start another thread to catch his attention, In fact I will do that now.

If it is very weakly magnetic it could be a cupro nickle alloy. Pure Nickle will be attracted by a magnet though not as strongly as Iron. I have no idea of the strength though it appears that it is strong enough for what you are doing now.

I started another thread and "Hobie" said the NKJ had said it was a bronze kind of alloy.

It is a brass receiver. I think Brass is an alloy of bronze and copper, right? Anyway, early on about or about 2000 they made some 357mags fron it too. But, those guns shot loose fairly quickly. Now, all you see them in is 45lc.

[GregT]

It probably is the same bronze alloy the that new made Henry rifles are made of. Adequate for it's design. Some Civil War cannons were made of bronze alloy. Now I want one.... I thought it was a plate but now that I know it is not, I will have to add one of these rifles to the cluster!
Thanks for checking!
GregT

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

It probably is the same bronze alloy the that new made Henry rifles are made of. Adequate for it's design. Some Civil War cannons were made of bronze alloy. Now I want one.... I thought it was a plate but now that I know it is not, I will have to add one of these rifles to the cluster!
Thanks for checking!
GregT

Nope, the Henry big boy is not Brass. It actually has some steel content. I had to drill one for a tang sight and the swarf was magnetic. I actually talked to Tony Imperato about this and he told me it was not brass but would not tell me what it was.

[GregT]

Communication with the same guy. Told me it was a bronze alloy. Did not state percentages of metal in the alloy. I will operate on this info. Thanks,
GregT

[Griff]

Bronze = copper / tin alloy. But, a variety of alloys of copper, including alloys with arsenic, phosphorus, aluminium, manganese, and silicon, are commonly termed "bronze".

Brass = copper / zinc. Other metals might be added to enhance certain characteristics.

Gunmetal, also known as red brass in the United States, is a type of bronze – an alloy of copper, tin, and zinc.

[GregT]

Just so the Rossi is not plated steel. I did not want that!
GregT

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Communication with the same guy. Told me it was a bronze alloy. Did not state percentages of metal in the alloy. I will operate on this info. Thanks,
GregT

The only thing I know for sure is the Rossi will not attact a magnet but the Henry Big Bpy will. The Rossi is only available in the lower pressure 45lc but the Big Boy is avaiable in 44mag. Got to be different metals.

[olyinaz]

I wonder if the Henry frames aren't made out of aluminum bronze? The characteristics of the alloy seem to fit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_bronze

Oly

[Ranch Dog]

This is an interesting thread. I have a Braztech R92 of 2011 manufacture in the "002" configuration, the scout style rifle, and shoot it at 35.0K PSI. Using my R92 chambered in 44 Mag (same "002" configuration) as a base for a comparison of the chamber and barrel wall thickness, I decided 35.0K PSI was comfortable for me. I also pressure traced the initial shooting with a strain gauge attached to the barrel to verify the data that QuickLoad spit out for me was accurate. It was.

The bullet I'm using is my TLC454-290-RF. I started shooting the bullet sized at .454" but finally had an opportunity last week to test those bullets against this bullet sized to .452" which ended up reducing my group size 45%. It was pretty good at .454" now it is very good. 2.4" groups at 100-yards. Doesn't sound very exciting until you cut five .45" holes out of that diameter. Not much left!

My 25.5-grain load of Lil'Gun is not a "range" load and intended for my hunting needs only. My rifle weighs 6# with the Weaver K4 Scout scope on it. The recoil is brutal but I fault most of that to the crescent butt stock. This load pushes the 290-grain bullet out the muzzle at 1775 FPS for 2030 FPE. I've killed a number of large feral hogs with it and the package is delivering a devastating blow! In the picture below you will see the exit wound and notice the hydro-static effect evident around the exit path.



Two weeks ago, I did get to check it's distance terminal effect on a large feral hog out in one of my food plots. Using a Bushnell range finder to determine the distance, 192-yards, the bullet knocked the hog off it's feet at the shot. I did get up and run but fell twice in 35 yards and was down and out with the second fall. The hog was quartering to me and I shot it through the brisket and the bullet exited the last rib on the opposite side.

My plans are to do a little whitetail hunting with the rifle/bullet this fall and I will probably take it nilgai hunting in December.

[oneyeopn]

I found the recoil to be painful myself, after my shoulder surgeries I wondered if I would be able to shoot it again. Steve Young (NKJ) recommended a person on eBay Cowtown Katy's Emporium and they made me a buttstock cover with a wedge in it to make it feel like more of a straight stock. It really worked as far as taking away the brutal crescent feeling and the price was real nice also. For those of us with the 92 with the crescent shaped buttplate I would recommend them anytime. I am having them make another one for my Marlin 336 just because I like the look of it on my rifle.

My rifle is ever so lightly magnetic, using one of the extendable magnets sold by the Snap-On tool truck it does slightly pull upon the magnet which led me to believe there is some other metal in the alloy.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I found the recoil to be painful myself, after my shoulder surgeries I wondered if I would be able to shoot it again. Steve Young (NKJ) recommended a person on eBay Cowtown Katy's Emporium and they made me a buttstock cover with a wedge in it to make it feel like more of a straight stock. It really worked as far as taking away the brutal crescent feeling and the price was real nice also. For those of us with the 92 with the crescent shaped buttplate I would recommend them anytime. I am having them make another one for my Marlin 336 just because I like the look of it on my rifle.

My rifle is ever so lightly magnetic, using one of the extendable magnets sold by the Snap-On tool truck it does slightly pull upon the magnet which led me to believe there is some other metal in the alloy.

It will depend on where you check it with your magnet. There are so many steel parts inside you may be getting a false readiing. Do this, take the buttstock off and chech the upper tang area near the stock screw hole.