Black powder firing pins and modern cartridges

[Alphawolf45]

Question for those who own and shoot vintage rifles.. Does the old fat firing pins generally associated with black powder era guns cause trouble with modern primers?
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I read many places that persons using the old guns should bush the firing pin hole and use smaller diameter pin..What is the scoop from first hand experience?

[earlmck]

This isn't a "modern primer" thing, this is a pressure thing. If you stay with black-powder type pressures or even somewhat higher you'll be fine. If you load 'em up to greater pressures (which you can easily do with smokeless powder) you'll reach a point where the pressure forces the primer back against the firing pin hard enough to push everything back into the firing pin hole and result in a hole in the primer. The primer hole looks like a pierced primer because of too sharp a firing pin, but that's not what it is.

If this happens and you don't want to reduce your loads you would need to bush the firing pin hole, turn the firing pin smaller to fit the smaller hole. But if you keep pressures low enough it'll never be an issue. You can also fudge a little and go to tougher primers. I use Remington 7 1/2 primers in my ancient 25-20 and they never pierce. And I've found Remington primers to be noticeably tougher than Winchester, Federal, or CCI primers (I haven't tested any of the imported primers). So if I had a large rifle struggling with an occasional pierced primer I'd try going to a Remington primer before I worried about any bushing.

You figuring on using a 45-70 in the shooting gallery there, Alphawolf? Might have to beef up the back wall of the shop!

[Borregos]

I have not had any problems with the fat pin on my Marlin 1889 made in 1892, works great

[Alphawolf45]

earlmck I appreciate the reply...35 years ago I paid a smith to put a new barrel on my .22 WCF lowwall and chambered it for .22 hornet...Tried two brands of cartridges in it and had no trouble with one and pierced all of the others from that second brand. I wasnt smart enough at that time to know which way was up or why it was piercing primers..Must'a been too much pressure ehh?

What made me ask is I have an old breechblock I thought I'd use in build of a Winchester 1873 in .32-20..Its got firing pin hole that measures .140 ...It has other problems which would require welding so think I'll close up and recut the hole while I was at it...on thuther hand I druther keep one close to authentic as I am able..Kinda like the looks of the fat firing pin...
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Mind answering another question? I am finishing this Winchester model 65 in .218 BEE ....Looking around not finding many choices in ready made cartridges .. I bought these but think they are too pointy for using in the tubular magazine. Your opinion?http://www.midwayusa.com/product/113917 ... -box-of-20

[Don McDowell]

Question for those who own and shoot vintage rifles.. Does the old fat firing pins generally associated with black powder era guns cause trouble with modern primers?
.
I read many places that persons using the old guns should bush the firing pin hole and use smaller diameter pin..What is the scoop from first hand experience?

Short answer is no. The firing pin on the blackpowder built rifles is larger due to the berdan priming used back then. Unless the hole around the firing pin is worn there's really no problem except for what may at times seem to be excess cratering.
If it becomes a problem any gunsmith worth the title can put a bushing and smaller pin in for you.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Guns with the big firing pins are often also badly worn.
Higher pressures of SOME modern ammo can cause the primer to extrude into the firing pin hole and possibly blow a hole through the primer cup releasing high pressure gasses into the area and back at the shooter.

You are making these rifles from scratch so the smaller pin is the way to go for modern loads.

[Alphawolf45]

You are making these rifles from scratch so the smaller pin is the way to go for modern loads.

Thanks Chuck .. Glad I asked because I was really thinking that the old cartridges may have had bigger, wider , deeper primers..I havent had opportunity to inspect authentic 100 year old ammo...Still a whole lot that I dont know about the old guns. I appreciate the help.

[KCSO]

I just finished working on a Sharps and here's the skinny on Sharps firing pins. The originals were large in diameter and had a large firing pin hole and as they wore you would occasionally pierce a primer and the gas would leak back straight into your face along with various bits of primer. Thsi was recognised as a defect early on and gunsmiths like Gove would dovetail a shield into the back of the breech block to divert the gasses. The modern riflea are either like the IAB's and have a large firing pin and a shield or like the Pedersoli and have a small firing pin that usually won't pierce and leak. Most of the old guns with large firing pins were not meant for pressures over black powder and need to be used accordingly or modified by welding up the firing pin holes and re doing them with a small diameter tight fitting firing pin. If I had my druthers I would opt for a small pin AND a shield in the Sharps and I would wear shooting glasses with some of the others.

[earlmck]

Mind answering another question? I am finishing this Winchester model 65 in .218 BEE ....Looking around not finding many choices in ready made cartridges .. I bought these but think they are too pointy for using in the tubular magazine. Your opinion?

They'll be just fine. Shoot 'em and enjoy your nifty rifle. This "don't put even a slightly pointy bullet in a tube magazine" thing has been waaaaaaaaay overdone. But at that price for cartridges I can see why you are ready to get into the reloading game.

And your low wall hornet that pierced primers with one brand and not with the other? -- I'd bet the one that pierced was Winchester and the one that didn't was Remington. Remington primers have been considerably tougher forever, far as I know. And yes, the pressures the hornet runs to are considerably higher than black powder, so the big old firing pin hole set you up for the pressure issue.

[Charles]

Back in the day it was a common practice to use Winchester high wall and Sharps Borchard SS actions to build modern high pressure rifles. The primers would flow back into the firing pin hole and tie up these falling block actions. The firing pin holes were bushed to prevent this. Today it would be unthinkable to tear up one of the rifles for the action. So no need to do the bushing thing today.

There is all sorts of bits and pieces of gun lore out there, that gets repeated over the years and loses it context along the way. The results of which is, once useful information, is converted into nonsense.

[AJMD429]

I am finishing this Winchester model 65 in .218 BEE ....Looking around not finding many choices in ready made cartridges .. I bought these but think they are too pointy for using in the tubular magazine. Your opinion?http://www.midwayusa.com/product/113917 ... -box-of-20

I've used the 'pointy' bullets in several low-recoil cartridge tubular-magazine guns without any problem or even hint of primer denting (you can dent a primer quite a bit with a 'light' firing pin blow without detonating it, so regular inspection and finding not even any dents, pretty much eased my mind on the issue).

If I thought I needed to use them, I'd not hesitate to load FMJ Spitzers in my 218 Bee, or my 32-20 Win; but if you wanted me to try one in my .444 Marlin on .45-70 Guide Gun, you'd have to put up the cost of the gun and the long string I'd be pulling to fire it.

[earlmck]

If I thought I needed to use them, I'd not hesitate to load FMJ Spitzers in my 218 Bee, or my 32-20 Win; but if you wanted me to try one in my .444 Marlin on .45-70 Guide Gun, you'd have to put up the cost of the gun and the long string I'd be pulling to fire it.

If you're a betting man, Doc, I'll put up the cost of your guide gun or 444 plus the string against your Marlin 218 Bee. I'm betting that you can't fire off a primer in the magazine using FMJ pointy bullets. And you can have 50 shots. Heck, take 100 shots. Not gonna' happen. You will make marks on the primer with the big boomers but she won't go off.

This pointy bullet thing is one of those old wive's tales (Rural legends?) propagated by 5 generations of gun writers repeating each other. IMHO.

[KCSO]

Read old Elmer, he had pierced primers with black power in the Sharps, they had to remove a piece of primer from his eye. I have had pierced primers with IAB's and a trial load of FFG in a 45-90.

[w30wcf]

Firing pin shape and protrusion also are factors. Primers today are made with better materials than those of years ago.
I have fired in excess of 1,000 smokeless cartridges from my 1873 Winchester 44 WCF made in 1882 with nary an issue with 14,000 CUP loads. It has a large firing pin.

w30wcf

[Mike D.]

It is a non issue with me. too.

[stanforth]

Mt current centre fire rifles are
Remmington Rolling Blocks x 3
Evans New Model in .44 Evans long.

Past old models (pre 1900) rifle.
Winchester 73
Winchester 92
Winchester 94 x 3
Winchester 95
Winchester High Wall
Winchester Low Wall
Snider( both rifle and carbine)
Martini Henry
westley Richards No.2 450/500
Westley Richards 300 Sherwood
Trap door Springfiels (50 Gov)
Spenser Carbine converted to 50 centrefire
More rook and rabbit rifles that I can remember.

Before they were banned here in the UK I had and used just about every model that Colt made.

I have never had a primer problem.