Colt Burgess lever-action

[getitdone1]

Does anyone here own or know about the Colt Burgess lever-action rifle/carbine?

I recall hearing about it but don't know anything about it. I bought a book today titled: The Old West by William C. Davis and it has a couple pictures of it. Looks good. Read they were only made for a couple of years so they must have had problems. One big problem, of course, was the Winchester models 1873 & 1876 for competition.

Lots of outstanding pictures in this book.

Why couldn't the Colt Burgess compete? What were it's shortcomings?

Don

[GonnePhishin]

Howdy,
I read an article in SASS magazine a couple of months ago and basically they were forced out of business by Winchester.
They were a good, well made gun and colt was trying to get into the rifle making business, but Winchester told 'em that if they did, They (Winchester) would start making pistols. Therefore, end of story.

At least I think that's what I read

[Rube Burrows]

Short comings were no dust cover and no spring loaded loading gate. You had to slide the cover to insert the rounds.

The other short coming was that after making it Winchester got a little edgy and decided to make a revolver. Colt reps and Winchester reps got together and decided that they would respect each other and that Colt would not make Lever Guns and that Winchester would not make six shooters.


I have never seen a real Colt Burgess but have handled some of the newer Uberti rifles and they are nice.

[JHarold]

true,true, what UncleBuck said. that's what I read also.

[Rube Burrows]

Winchester actually did make a few revolvers. Colt was not forced out of business. They just seen that it was in the best interest of them to let Winchester have the Lever Gun market. Shortly after they discontinued the Burgess rifle they came out with the slide action Lightening rifle. That was something that was not a direct competitor of Winchester's Lever guns.

[olyinaz]

Someone here has one and he likes it. I've seen the new repro in the shops (well, I've seen ONE I should say) and it was stunning - just lovely.

I'm told that the Colt Lightning was derived from the Burgess and that's where Colt wanted to go in order to compete with the lever guns that were jamming the market from other makers.

I tell you what, if Colt had introduced that rifle with side ejection like the Lightning pump gun I bet it would have taken off quite well!

I NEED a Burgess badly. NEED mind you.

Cheers,
Oly

[perry owens]

The Burgess doesn't need a dust cover as the massive bolt completely covers the opening in the reciever. The sliding loading gate works well as the nose of the round pushes the gate open. One "fault" of the original Burgess was that it did not have a Winchester-type lever safety to stop it firing before the lever closed.The repros have the safety.
I have a Uberti Burgess. It looks great and is superbly accurate, but from new it has suffered from light strikes - about 60% of rounds are only slightly indented by the firing pin on the first strike. When it does fire on the first strike the primers are well indented. It looks to me as if the hammer is hitting the back of the bolt before it drives the firing pin forward enough to fire but I am not prepared to tamper with it while it is under warranty so it has gone back to the supplier. The firing pin has a bend in the middle to clear the single internal toggle link and there are some opportunities for parts to bind on each other.

Perry Owens

[Rube Burrows]

I have read in a couple places (I'll try to locate where) that the rifle not having a dust cover was in fact a problem out west where sand storms and just the dirty grimey desert in general would cause problems.

That or any other fault of the rifle is not what killed the production though....its a fine rifle. It was the deal with Winchester that killed production. Winchester had a strong hold on the Lever Gun Market at that time.....much like their design rifles have a strong hold on most of the SASS world today.

[olyinaz]

That or any other fault of the rifle is not what killed the production though....its a fine rifle. It was the deal with Winchester that killed production. Winchester had a strong hold on the Lever Gun Market at that time.....much like their design rifles have a strong hold on most of the SASS world today.

Well, no one else has said it so I'll be the guy to throw the chip in the punch bowl: I've read that the "deal" with Winchester has been refuted my times over the years and there's just no proof it ever happened. What is provable is that the Burgess did not sell well and the lever gun market was jammed up with competitors all trying to knock Winchester off the top of the hill. Colt used the Burgess design elements to develop their Lightning rifle and decided to compete in the market with a pump action rifle that they claimed was faster than a lever action and they did quite well with it.

Or I could be wrong...

Cheers,
Oly

[J Miller]

So let me ask this cos I really don't know the answer: What is the strength level of the Colt Burgess replicas?

Nice rifle, I'm temped to go get one. I need something new and different.

Joe

[hfcable]

know several folks who had originals- they often did not feed reliably and virtually all of them had seriously cracked forearm wood eventually
the current ' burgess ' internally resembles the 73 win more than the original burgess

i have an 1878 burgess 45/70 which has other faults but also was the first commercially produced 45/70 lever gun-- i like it!

[perry owens]

So let me ask this cos I really don't know the answer: What is the strength level of the Colt Burgess replicas?

Nice rifle, I'm temped to go get one. I need something new and different.

Joe

It's a toggle link design, with a single toggle link working inside the bolt, unlike the Winchester twin links. The 0.45 Colt calibre version is the only one imported to the UK but it passes UK proof, which is a pretty stringent test. I just hope that the light strike problem mine has turns out to be a one-off fault and not a design flaw.
Perry Owens

[Sixgun]

Well, no one else has said it so I'll be the guy to throw the chip in the punch bowl: I've read that the "deal" with Winchester has been refuted my times over the years and there's just no proof it ever happened. What is provable is that the Burgess did not sell well and the lever gun market was jammed up with competitors all trying to knock Winchester off the top of the hill. Colt used the Burgess design elements to develop their Lightning rifle and decided to compete in the market with a pump action rifle that they claimed was faster than a lever action and they did quite well with it.
Oly

Thats what I have always understood. For the most part Colt focused on their SAA's and Lightnings, realizing that Winchester's leverguns could not be out done.

Here in S.E. Pa. where leverguns are in numerous supply, I have only laid my hands on ONE Colt Burgess. It was 7 or 8 years ago at a show and the guy wanted 5 g's for it. It looked "right" but not right enough for the 2 or 3 hundred dollars I had in my pocket. ------------Sixgun

[Griff]

Perry,

One of the shooters at our club has one and it's working flawlessly for him. I fondled it and liked it! Hopefully they'll iron yours out!

[hfcable]

A little more info on the original colt burgess and the forearm wood problem, with very nice pictures:

http://www.rieckesbaysidegallery.com/co ... nnards.cfm

INNARDS OF THE COLT BURGESS

The complete rifle.





The locking mechanism of a Colt Burgess can be seen here. It is a a three pin linkage using the lever pin, an intermediate pin, and the pin holding the linkage to the bolt.

To assemble the parts slide the bolt into the action from the back. Insert the other parts into the lower part of the action and insert the lever pin through holes E and F.

Line up the hole C in the linkage with hole B in the bolt. Insert the linkage pin through hole A in the side of the frame joining B to C.

There is then a plug screw that goes in hole A to keep the linkage pin from coming out.

The locking of the action is then accomplished by the pin at "BC", the pin at "D" and the pin at "EF".

An interesting feature is the cartridge ejector. The cartridge extractor is at top of the bolt like most rifles. The ejector is a small collar that surrounds the firing pin where it contacts the cartridge. This collar is a little under a quarter inch in diameter and about a quarter inch long. It can slide out of the front of the bolt about 1/8 inch. A flat "V" spring at point "G" in the tab sticking down from the front of the bolt forces this collar out. As the bolt starts traveling backwards the extractor pulls the case out of the chamber while the collar around the firing pin pushes on the back of the case. As soon as the case (or loaded round) clears the front of the ejector port the collar (ejector) pops the case out of the top of the action.

MORE ON THE COLT BURGESS

A problem with the original Colt Burgess was the thin wood in the forearm in the area of the loading gate. The wood is so thin in this area that many original Colt Burgess rifles have the forearm broken in this area. Ours was broken like this when we got it. The loading gate slides forward into the forearm rather than folding into the action like a Winchester.



While I don't know for sure if this is a big problem the design of the firing pin looks like it could give problems. At any rate the two Colt Burgess rifles I have had the opportunity to examine both had broken or replaced firing pins.

Here's a drawing of the firing pin.



The firing pin has a "hump" in it to clear the toggle linkage as the action is cycled. I suspect that as long as everything is clean and not gummed up it would work fine. But if things would bind up due to black powder fowling or general dirt the firing pin could bind where in passes through the front of the bolt and cause the firing pin to bend when the rifle is fired.

This is one of the parts my dad and I are building from scratch

[hfcable]

A little more info on the original colt burgess and the forearm wood problem, with very nice pictures:

http://www.rieckesbaysidegallery.com/co ... nnards.cfm

INNARDS OF THE COLT BURGESS

The complete rifle.





The locking mechanism of a Colt Burgess can be seen here. It is a a three pin linkage using the lever pin, an intermediate pin, and the pin holding the linkage to the bolt.

To assemble the parts slide the bolt into the action from the back. Insert the other parts into the lower part of the action and insert the lever pin through holes E and F.

Line up the hole C in the linkage with hole B in the bolt. Insert the linkage pin through hole A in the side of the frame joining B to C.

There is then a plug screw that goes in hole A to keep the linkage pin from coming out.

The locking of the action is then accomplished by the pin at "BC", the pin at "D" and the pin at "EF".

An interesting feature is the cartridge ejector. The cartridge extractor is at top of the bolt like most rifles. The ejector is a small collar that surrounds the firing pin where it contacts the cartridge. This collar is a little under a quarter inch in diameter and about a quarter inch long. It can slide out of the front of the bolt about 1/8 inch. A flat "V" spring at point "G" in the tab sticking down from the front of the bolt forces this collar out. As the bolt starts traveling backwards the extractor pulls the case out of the chamber while the collar around the firing pin pushes on the back of the case. As soon as the case (or loaded round) clears the front of the ejector port the collar (ejector) pops the case out of the top of the action.

MORE ON THE COLT BURGESS

A problem with the original Colt Burgess was the thin wood in the forearm in the area of the loading gate. The wood is so thin in this area that many original Colt Burgess rifles have the forearm broken in this area. Ours was broken like this when we got it. The loading gate slides forward into the forearm rather than folding into the action like a Winchester.



While I don't know for sure if this is a big problem the design of the firing pin looks like it could give problems. At any rate the two Colt Burgess rifles I have had the opportunity to examine both had broken or replaced firing pins.

Here's a drawing of the firing pin.



The firing pin has a "hump" in it to clear the toggle linkage as the action is cycled. I suspect that as long as everything is clean and not gummed up it would work fine. But if things would bind up due to black powder fowling or general dirt the firing pin could bind where in passes through the front of the bolt and cause the firing pin to bend when the rifle is fired.

This is one of the parts my dad and I are building from scratch