Latest issue of Rifle magazine / 1886 in 475

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Any opinions on the 475 Turnbull in Scovill's article in the latest issue of Rifle mag? My apologies if your copy hasn't arrived yet.

If you don't get Rifle, here's an info link on the rifle/cart on Turnbull's site http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/475turnbull.htm

It would seem that Turnbull/Scovill are trying to arrive at a cartridge that satisfies some of what the Professional Hunters (PH from now on) regard as minimally acceptable for use in Africa on the dangerous game hunts. I seem to recall a thread on the old board (possibly had a link to a thread on another board) about what at least one PH regarded as qualified measures for use in Africa. As I recall, we had a hard time matching a levergun cartridge to his requirements ... nebulous as some of them seemed.

Not even the 50 Alaskan filled his bill while the 450 Alaskan was very close. I'm betting that this 475 Turnbull hits on all of the marks.

His list was extensive with muzzle energy, bullet sectional density, Taylor Knockdown power, yada, yada, yada.

Does anyone still have that link?

Not that I completely agree with some of his assertions as to what was "absolutely" required to make the grade and that anything less should not be considered. His requirements seemed to push one toward thinking as he did ... that only double rifles in the old H&H style / power level were acceptable. That's what I got out of it anyway.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe I'd need more than four rounds of 450 Alaskan to plant a Cape buffalo in the dirt with a proper bullet and proper placement. But as the article in Rifle mentions ... apparently it took Turnbull several rounds at one engagement with his 475 Turnbulll to stop one ... only to have another show up minutes later and in need of putting down as well. Now that I look at it, Turnbull's gun has a full mag tube as well so he's sporting quite a few rounds in there.

[TomD]

I really enjoyed that article, but I came away thinking the cartridge really hadn't gained any ground. I was actually thinking about a similar project myself because the 50s are getting harder and harder to get supplies out of the US for. So I had dreamt up this idea of a 470 Polar Express, named after the famous line that takes you to polar bear country in the far north of Canada. good idea, apparently good enough to have accured to a ton of people first, if for different reasons!

Anyway, the key quote for me in the Scovill article was the stuff about loads shooting through a Buff from any angle. This wasn't peak performance even, but it does sound a lot like the 45-70 performance level with 500 grain hammerheads. A lot of gun but is it enough stopping power?


The key performace issues are enough cartridge to kill; enough to stop; and a mechanical platform that is reliable enough.

- 475 Turnbull obviously satisfies 1.

- So far I believe the 50s are the best bet for levers for 2. Most of the contenders are designed from a 50-110 base, the larger the capacity the better, and on soft skinned targets the 50 seems likely to offer more stopping power. What is gained by reducing it in caliber? You might pick up some optimal SD, but in this case the capacity offered by the shorter bullets in the same case size seems a better direction to optimize.

- Mechanical system probably still requires a lot more work. I'd like to see a slightly larger format for the receiver. Best options for getting at jams. More natural weight in the gun, stronger mag parts. Whatever the lever equivalent of CRF would be, if it could even exist. Bank vault lock works and safety (could be none). I wouldn't mind the barrel and magazine being integral, though no more than maybe 3-4 shots in the mag. Stronger and more close-in sigths than most are offering.

I don't know how to do any of that, but I wish someone would get on it. I love the look Turnbull has created, but it still seems a little short of reality. People take stuff to Africa to shoot Buff, not to get near that Western plains Buff vibe, shooting sticks at hundreds of yards. They go, as the receiver shows, to tap that ragging charging Buff. It's all about stopping, and I don't think we are yet there. I don't mean it isn't being done, I mean the ideal lever hasn't yet been created.

[TomD]

OK, tracked down some stuff Doug had on another site, and he is trying to nail the SD part of the DG cartridge requirement. So he has a rifle that does all the parts of the traditional requirements for a DG riffle. Problem with 458s in a lever is that the buttet gets too long and pushes far enough back in to the case to reduce velocity/weight. Problem with the 510 is that it doesn't have the SD. 475 solves both.

I'm still not totally convinced this is the right answer. Would you really rather take a hit from a 475 with less powder behind it than a 50 (maybe the powder is the same, haven't quite locked that bit up, but either way.) If you need a lot of penetration as on Elephant then maybe the 475 is indicated, but on all other DG candidates, I think I might rather be shooting the 510.

Anyway, it is an interesting idea.

[Leverluver]

I wish him luck in convincing the African hunting crowd. Us lever nuts are satisified but those he is trying to convince are not going to be convinced without a .300+ SD (same as a 450 grain 458) bullet and in 475 that requires a 500 grain bullet. Nor are they going to be satisified until that 500 grain bullet is going 2000+fps from the muzzle at "reasonable" pressures for the action. Maybe he can pull it off with a mostly lead cored bullet but he isn't going to do it with a partial or mostly monolithic bullet. They just take up too much powder space. I know he is trying to expand his market but I think he is butting his head against the wall. Those of us that are already convinced might get one but those that never will be convinced won't. I don't see any new AR type customers coming out of the endeavor.

[crs]

I was waiting for Leverluver to chime in before I gave my 2 cents worth, so here goes. Who cares about satisfying a PH, so long as the client knows his gun and load will do the trick? Remember the forum member that killed his elephant with a .50 Alaskan punch bullet - his PH folk encouraged him to bring it and use it and that shows an enlightened approach to the business of enjoying hunting. My PH friend uses his .308 on everything but dangerous game, but his backup rifle is .470 NE. He and his clients also hunt cape buffalo and lions with archery gear - does not mean I want to.

When an 1886 .45-70 can drive a 460 CP at 2100+ fps with 2 inch groups at 100 yards(not me, but an acquaintance), why is another rifle or cartridge needed? The answer is for FUN AND PROFIT!
Wildcatting is fun and makes valuable contributions to the state of the art, but regardless of what the PH carries, the client can usually carry any legal firearm and should use the one he shoots best. Heck 86er killed his Cape buffalo with an 1886 shooting puny 405 gr Kodiak at 2100 fps - one shot, one buff.
This type of discussion has and will go on forever among gun nuts and is educational and enjoyable. Imagine what it would do to the romance of hunting in Africa if an 1886 in 45-70 or 90 or an 1895 in .405 Winchester did become known as all that was really needed to paste the big tough game? There would be no need to buy the new expensive rifles and ammo just for Africa - where is the fun in that?

[TomD]

I agree with you on most of those points. That is why I think the 510 is the way to go, mono solids as you say probably do queer the 475 numbers.

But face it, the main African crowd doesn't deserve to be swayed yet. And practically speaking won't be. The reality is that levers aren't really combat guns. I don't know one that is refined for that role like the 1911, or any of a number of bolts. I came across a thread on the Browning rotating bolt lever, and all the hopes some have there for it as a DG rifle. All I could think of was the Ross rifle.

To really get something going, there would have to be a start from scratch. But the world doesn't actually need a better DG rifle, it takes away from what is already a fairly light claim on "extreme". All this work will just be done for folks who want to use a lever, for no good reason at all.

[1886]

Great thread. You gents are well informed. 1886.

[Hobie]

It seems to me that the biggest sticking point with many "old hands" (or those who think they are such) is that the levergun cartridges haven't matched the "traditional" African cartridges. A ballistic match isn't all that they are looking for. In the "old" days, some cartridges failed commercially, not because of their ballistic shortcomings but because of their platform, source, or the perception/prejudices of the hunters/target market. I think that the platform and those prejudices will be the biggest sticking points for broad commercial appeal of any such.

I enjoyed the article.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Wow, you guys must have received your copies of Rifle mag much later than I had. I was sure this thread was dead as a door nail.

I do recall the elephant kill ... was that thread on the old board perhaps?

Other than "fun", I was curious as to the impetus for the project. Scovill seemed pretty excited about it but that's probably because it's his "baby". Then I remembered the thread, perhaps on the old board as well, where some PH listed his requirements for a DG cartridge. I couldn't find the thread and was wondering if this new 475 Turnbull happened to satisfy his list.

Of course, now that I recall what I paid for my Turnbull gun, I think the impetus was likely new cartridge appeal and the sale of lever guns for profit. Not that I'm complaining ... the Turnbull work on one of my 71s turned out exceptionally well.

[1886]

Some otherwise perfectly suitable cartridges failed because of poor bullet design. The Brits and to a lesser degree the Germans properly understood correct bullet contruction and marketing. Modern hunters enjoy unparalled bullet selection, quality, and generally understand the proper application of said projectiles. Still, outdated notions abound. 1886.

[engravertom]

I think part of the impetus was to establish the viability of the levergun platform as a dangerous game rifle. Of course, Turnbull Restoration specializes in leverguns. The PH did order a rifle on the spot, after seeing how well it performed.

I inlayed the gold lines on the rear sight for it...

take care,

Tom

[TomD]

You can find the elephant article on the Leverguns home site. That was a mono solid out of a 50AKl. But it was more a hunting article than a DG stopping article.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/elephant.htm

[buckeyeshooter]

I have a Turnbull reworked 1895 Marlin Cowboy in 50 alaskan. I have just loaded some 535 grain woodleighs with the nose flattened for safety to 1860fps out of my 26 inched barrel gun. As these woodleighs are used in 50 cal DG bolt guns-- I do not know why they would not be just as effective from a lever gun. By the way-- these are NOT max loads. No pressure signs of any kind, I do not know where the top speed will end up, as it has been to nasty weather wise to do much testing. I do think that the 50 alaskan will be able to handle whatever you want to shoot with it.

[TomD]

Here is Turnbull taking a shot at SD numbers, just for interest.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ... 108567/p/1

That 510 bullet should be fine.

The Magic numbers of 2150 fps, 45 cal, and 500 grain SD, over .3 (minus .02-.03 if mono non-lead solid), with 5000 Foot Pounds, would require an extra 35% bullet weight to get that energy, or around 676 grains out of your rifle at that velocity. Of course if you have enough room for a velocity increase...

[KirkD]

For me, those PH numbers are a little bit over the top. I'm pretty sure that the traditional black powder double rifles of the late 1800's didn't do that. If a PH feels he needs that, then he can buy one to use as a back up rifle. I've no doubt that a 500 grain bullet with 5,000 ft-lbs of energy will kill a Cape Buff or an Elephant, I'm just not interested in that kind of 'hunting'. Why not use a LAW? That will do the job even better! My philosophy is that the PH should use whatever he deems best, but let the client use whatever he wants .... within reason, of course.

[TomD]

I do remember reading a book by one of the more successful black powder guys, back when they were shooting ping pong sized balls. Most of his misery and he was hunting in early undeveloped times more or less by himself, was the headache and other damage from shooting his rifle! I don't know what the numbers for his gun were but they were painful at either end. I saw a ball from a more recent example of such a gune at the Gun Room (hey we are in the same area!) was something like 1.1".

The numbers for smokeless come from a different era, and I am not standing up for them one way or another, I think higher in the thread someone asked though.

Also in chipping away on this topic let me just say you guys who bought Turnbulls, good for you! I wish we could meet to shoot them, though that isn't how the internet works, most of the time. Personally I am really interested in improving the Lever DG breed, so I am thinking about all the little issues, I have a project in mind, in fact it would probably have a gun in hand if it weren't for the problems I have had finding part up here.

"I've no doubt that a 500 grain bullet with 5,000 ft-lbs of energy will kill a Cape Buff or an Elephant, I'm just not interested in that kind of 'hunting'. Why not use a LAW? That will do the job even better! My philosophy is that the PH should use whatever he deems best, but let the client use whatever he wants .... within reason, of course."

I'm a devoted bowhunter since the 70s. Mostly not much of a believer in them for DG. But I do agree the client and the PH can make whatever deal they want, within the law. However, what those numbers are supposed to establish is what the ballistics of the PH rifle need be if the client is to be protected. One hopes the client never needs to protect the PH, but some of the free-for-alls on youtube do raise the question.

There is a difference between hunting dangerous game, and... hunting dangerous game. If one just want to put some meat, ok a lot of meat, in the pot, you could simply adjust your tactics to the weapon. If one had a bow for plains game, maybe that starts to look like a tree over a waterhole vs. stalking out in the open with a rifle. (The restricted means starts to look interesting when you get the kind of hunter who can bowhunt antelope in the open!) Similar tactics can be used to slip one into game of any size. This would be kinda like spearing a bull from the stands in a bullfight, the throw might be interesting, the meat might be succulent, but there is another approach.

So sure if a client wants to use a pistol or bow or low powered rifle and slip one in then run behind the PH when stuff goes pearshaped, that is an option, and it really isn't all that bad, but the challenge is more like whitetail hunting as far as the client is concerned. Finding and closing on a good specimen.

For the other type of hunting that includes either pre-wounding, or confronting game in different situations, a LAW might be out of the question, but the basic ballistics of the 458 are not. If all one wanted to do is kill a larger animal, out of the box 45-70 rifles will get her done and do a lot of the DG piece also. But what is the next level...