The case for solid (FMJ) bullets.

[getitdone1]

Why is the solid, full metal jacketed bullet so popular in Africa? When is the solid considered appropriate when hunting in Africa? I've read there are some hunters in Africa who prefer solids for all game, not just the biggest and meanest. (Article was by Jim Carmichael, I believe) I don't think this is true for most professional hunters in Africa.

I understand the deep penetration needed for large elephant when shooting them in the brain. I read they can have up to 2 feet of "bone" (a "honeycomb kind of bone as I recall) that must be penetrated before reaching their brain. What about the buffalo, rhino or hippo? Do they also warrant solids? If they do then do brown and grizzly bears warrant solids? Would solids be best when facing a charge from our largest bears? I believe it's been determined that a brain shot is the only shot to go for when a bear charges. If you miss the brain would penetration completely through the bear, lengthwise, be desired? The long, heavy solid would make this possible.

FMJ bullets are commonly used in North America by hunters wanting to minimize pelt damage. Can FMJ bullets (solids) be legally used on any game in North America? I don't believe they can and yet we have this one example.

Don

[olyinaz]

Don,

I can't answer your question, but I do want to make the point that solids and FMJs are not the same thing. I've seen FMJs shed their lead cores when fired into something hard, but a solid brass or copper slug doesn't have any parts to separate.

Oly

[guido4198]

First...a few words on nomenclature.
Traditionally....FMJ hunting bullets have been referred to as "solids".
Oly is correct in that current useage differentiates between FMJ bullets and true monolithic solids.
The first monolithic solids I remember seeing were brought to market by Art Alphin's company, A-Square, in the late 1970's. The A-square line featured a solid metal bullet...i.e.: not jacket/core construction. There may be earlier examples....but these were the first I remember seeing.
When I hunted Cape Buffalo, my guide recommended loading a soft nose round for the first shot, followed by "solids" ( FMJ rounds). The rationale was that the FIRST shot would be the easiest, least stressful, and provide the best opportunity to pick a good set-up for the soft nose to penetrate and do it's job. IF that didn't put him down...there was a very real likelihood that follow-up shots might be required to penetrate a lot of Bull coming straight at us...head-up..."open for business".
Shooting Elephant, we loaded all "solids". Due to the sheer size of Elephants...pretty much any shot was going to have to pass through a lot of critter and have to do a lot of damage along the way.
It was the observed "failures" of many of the common FMJ rounds available back in the day...that caused Art Alphin to see an opportunity for a monolithic bullet that couldn't warp, bend, shed jacket etc. These days, we have a very large variety of premium solids from which to choose. Hasn't always been that way.
Hope this helps.

[COSteve]

Technically, a lead ball is a monolithic solid bullet and they pre-date Art Alphin's company, A-Square solids by centuries.

[getitdone1]

guido4198,

Yes, that's my understanding also of FMJ and solid bullets. As you say, in the past they were considered the same but not now. I was refering to them as we often did for many years.

Lead is heavier than copper, therefore, would'nt a bullet of same size (not weight) with a very strong jacket and lead core penetrate better? Perhaps hunters are presently trying to determine which of these two types of "solids" is truly the best.

I believe W.D.M. Bell, the famous elephant hunter, prefered "solids" for all game animals.

Don

[madman4570]

Probably 86er can answer this one best?
Found an interesting site that also would have some interesting info to share.
http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/pages/welcome2

I think FMJ's on most stuff in the US is illegal.(maybe at some private hunting ranches,its accepted?)
Also aren't FMJ and Solids two different things?
Example: a FMJ can be something of a heavy core material(such as lead)totally encased with a metal case.
A Solid can be (just that) a bullet constructed on a solid material such as brass.
I guess a bullet like a Mt. Baldy some people consider them solids but still though having lead encased in a THICK jacketed bullet ?
Maybe they consider when the bullet has a frontal nose section totally of a metal material like brass and still has some lead in its base(its a solid??)

Any how I can see where (a solid or a FMJ) can be effective on any game where you have a chance of hitting huge bone obstructing a bullet otherwise from reaching its brain/vitals.However I can also see where there's times you wouldn't want that non-expanding less tissue damaging type bullet?
Would have to check with each jurisdiction to see if either or is Legal(most seen not to be?)in this Country?
Strictly speaking wouldn't a SOLID lead slug(made of a material that is in itself 100% of that material)be a SOLID

But FMJ's, for Bear/Deer where I live? ------------Nope!

[JB]

Of course you also have the all copper bullets that could be called solids, but mushroom quite well in most game.

[Canuck Bob]

The Barnes Buster is an example of a solid that hits hard in larger diameters. To me FMJ always meant spitzer military style rifle ammo and useless for hunting. Solids mean to me long heavy bullets with prefereably a large flat nose, large meplat, for tissue destruction and long straight penetration. It is of note that in the African forums the hunters say a SD of .3 is required for proper penetration with DG rifles. That is a 400 gr 44 cal bullet or 300 gr 375 or 200 gr 30 cal.

[madman4570]

This is a very interesting topic,and I for one look forward to learning from it guys!

[olyinaz]

This bone crusher out of my .460 Weatherby would likely be a heckuva steam hammer (Barnes banded solid):



Not sure what the heck I'd use it on in North America. Maybe three bison in enfilade fire.

I've been told that all-copper solids foul the bore something fierce but brass or gilding metal solids not so much. Anyone have any info on that?

Thanks,
Oly

[Cliff]

One thing I remember reading about hunting with solids was they perform well. Bullet placement is very important. The early years of expanding, soft nose and similar designs were very iffy on holding together when going through an animal. Early made bullets couldn't be relied upon to reach the vitals while solids could. As stated when you talk of FMJ you are talking of a spitzer design and it will bend or break on a hard target. A lot of companies made outrageous claims on how affective their expanding bullets were and a lot of the companies folded when stories came back of bullet failure. Round nose solids seemed to always go deep and hold up. At least that is what I remember. The new bullets being made today are way ahead of what used to be. Good Luck.

[yooper2]

When I was 18 my only centerfire rifle was a surplus Mosin-Nagant and I shot corrosive FMJ surplus ammo exclusively. I took a lot of coyotes, feral dogs, and a couple of deer with it (neck shots on the deer and coyotes, dogs anywhere I could when they were running at or away from me). Two years ago I started making true copper solids for my 270 on a screw machine (copying the Barnes design but with a round nose) and they work great on neck or head shots for coyotes and deer without making a mess. Also shot a wounded bear with one and it penetrated full length of the body (I think it had been hit by a car or something as both rear legs were broken); the DNR officer was rather impressed by it. I don't really know if there is need for either type of bullet in North America but there are those of who use them and they get the job done with good placement.

Eric

[Nath]

Nice one yooper2, comes back to ole' faithfull don't it, placement!

N.

[86er]

The oldest African reference to "solids" were aka full patched bullets. Later, the common terminology changed to cased bullets or full jacket bullets. Full cased bullets were bullets where the jacket material fully enclosed the core, and full jacket bullets were where the base of the jacket was either crimped over the core or swaged to prevent the core from backing out. "Full metal jacket" bullets was a moniker usually given to small bore diameter bullets with pointy profiles. The term "steel jacketed bullet" was used for these smallbore bullets too whether or not the jacket material was actually steel. Much later and more recent the terminology changed to "full metal jacket" meaning a smallbore spitzer with no exposed lead and not intended to expand, "solid" meaning a large bore bullet where the jacket was mechanically adapted to prevent the core from coming out the back, and "monolithic" sometimes called "monolithic solid" which described a bullet of homogenous material like a pure copper or pure brass bullet. In differentiation, the monolithic or homogenous expanding bullets were always either called by the manufacturers name, ie: Barnes, or loosely referred to as "hollow point monolithics". As you move further south among African countries, the newer nomenclature became common sooner (or in other words a longer time ago).

"Solids" as a generic classification of bullets are used for two primary purposes, dangerous game and particularly small game where the caliber is clearly "over-power". The latter would be like a 300 grain 375HH used on a dik-dik or steenbok. From a hunters point of view, a controlled expanding bullet is commonly recommended for the first shot at standing dangerous game. The reason is two-fold. First is the limited ability to pass through and if it does, to minimize the chance of two mortally wounded animals. This is particular to buffalo in a herd situation but also to lions in a pride cluster or rhino that may travel with a mate or adult offspring. The second is for the straight line maximum penetration and limited deflection when used on any charging animal that is head-on and all elephant and hippos land. A client may be asked to load a "solid" for second shots. This is due to the possibility of a rearward (going away animal) shot or head on shot whether standing or kneeling. A pelvic, a boss, teeth, nasal cartilige, ribs, shoulder or rumen will all slow and expand a "soft point" or expanding bullet much more than a "solid". Also, in southern Africa, a blood spoor will usually result in a found animal nowadays with smaller concessions, less animals and fences so an exit wound it preferred if the first shot did not anchor the animal or cause it to go down within sight. A PH's job is to fix a problem and the only responsible way to do that under the worst possible circumstances it to use only "solids". A cast bullet is not a true monolithic unless it is pure lead (rarely) and is not considered a "solid" among PH's. This is because a solid is expected to retain it's weight and shape long enough to reach vitals. A cast bullet shed weight through shearing and is constantly changing shape in minor ways as it travels though flesh and bone. Just how does a solid perform? I used a Kodiak solid that is considered to be excellent in 450 grain weight .458 at 2100 fps. On an elephant bull's head the bullet riveted and ended up looking like a mushroomed bullet. I used a Hornady round nose solid .375 at 2500 fps and it bent in half and looked like a smile (or frown) and went off course within the animal. Both 405 and 430 grain Punch bullets are brass with a hard lead core. Both weights in elephant, buffalo and hippo had the lead core shift forward and expand the nose upon impact (though not nearly to the extent of the Kodiak's expansion). Nosler monolithic solids, Barnes banded solids and the outstanding Dzombo solids all retained their shape and weight (all .458, 500 gr) with on .375 Nosler on all animals. The 540 grain Garret made bullet and the 525 Piledriver in .458 each shed over half their weight and changed profiles to short (half or less original length) and round noses pieces of their original form. My Zambia Game Officer actually took all my 540 Garret ammo from me after he felt it performed poorly on a buffalo and then an elephant and he threw them in the river and said "you wont do that again". I like the Punch because of the wide meplat and sharp cutting edge it maintains and the lead core moving forward actually seems to help penetration by the forward weighted bullet that it becomes. The Nosler has been a little more stable than the Barnes in big stuff and it appears sometimes the bands on the Barnes are grabbed and cause it to become a little unstable, but I'd use either depending on the accuracy and cartridge pressure.

Top is Punch, bottom left is what's left of Garret 540gr and center bottom is a Solid Kodiak
All of these were from an elephants head

Punch and Kodiak Solid from hippo

Garret 540 gr (what remains of it) from buffalo pelvic into 20" spine, and 300 gr Nosler partition from Leopard

[olyinaz]

Fascinating!

Oly

[madman4570]

Wow! (Professor Joe!)
If I knew 1/100th as much about this stuff as you, my brain still couldn't handle it.
You really make this forum special gracing us with your knowledge.(Thanks)
Rifleman course-------101 (your like one of those great professor's you get at college) Well Done!

You other guys are not so bad yourselves !

Always learning on here!

[Canuck Bob]

Amazing, I would have never thought the solids could mushroom up like that. I thought a bull moose was a big animal!

[donw]

IMHO, the use of 'solid' or FMJ on big game should be legal.

i read recently, the the DOJ here in California has "ruled" solid bullets as being "armor piercing" so that may be coming into play in the very near future here in California, at least...(I'm not certain about the brand names...but proposed legislation DOES give a metallurgical breakdown of the bullets composition)

i must also note that all this proposed legislation is so murky and unclear as to whether or not it applies to handgun only or ALL centerfire ammo. one of our legislators has been attempting to ban any ammo that will "Pierce metal or armor"...for a more detailed explanation got to www.calguns.net

[getitdone1]

One thing I'm "digging for" with my bullet related posts is how much is mushrooming worth and how much of it is hype? I don't know but I'm curious.

You take a solid or FMJ bullet and give it enough velocity and it'll do some "exploding" of animal tissue--just like it does with water jugs. Not as much as same velocity with a mushroomed bullet, but some. One thing about the solid or FMJ--assuming a long, heavy bullet: you're assured of lots of penetration. Not so with the mushrooming bullet. When the mushrooming begins the penetration begins to slow down significantly relative to the solid or FMJ bullet. My 375 H&H goes through 24 water jugs with Hornady 300 grain "solid" while it only goes through 5, at most, with various SP bullets--just about like the typical center-fire rifle with SP bullets. That 300 grain solid also went through about 28" of live tree. Not a hard oak and I think it was an ash. Dug the dirt up on the opposite side. Oh, and the jugs with 300 grain solid: that's all I had on the board, I still don't know how many jugs it'll penetrate but surely getting close to the max.

The old Remington 45-70, 405 grain factory load at about 1330 fps zipped through 10 gallon (all I had on the board) water jugs while most of my other calibers made it through 4-5. Reason is it's slow and therefore the bullet did not mushroom--or if it did I couldn't see it looking at the holes in the plastic jugs. The U.S. Forest Service used a different medium and this factory load also penetrated very well for them. They too said it didn't mushroom. And...does it really need to?

I know there's several people here who have used this Remington 45-70, 405 gr factory load in the field and I'd really like to hear from some of you about how it performed for you on real, honest-to-God, live animals.

Don

[86er]

To answer the first part of your last post - it depends on the profile and diameter. Spire point FMJ's make a hole that is significantly smaller than their original diameter. This is due to the skin and subsequent flesh being "pierced" and then stretching around the projectile. Looking at some animal skins where we have measured the hole, I see .308 bullets causing a hole of .213 and .269. Even a .458 bullet only made a hole that is .306. The tissue damage is not extensive and the internal and external bleeding is minimized because the flesh seals unto itself. This also maintains the blood pressure for a longer period of time. Take and awl of known diameter and punch it through a piece of leather, then measure the hole. It is a fraction of the awls' original diameter. On a paper target the hole is small with a thiin serrated edge around it and the edge is slightly pulled into the hole. Now a solid with a sharp cutting shoulder, like a Nosler Solid, Dzombo or Punch leaves a much more defined hole. The flat point and sharp edge is pushing the flesh away and (as the bullet rotates) cutting it. The pushing and cutting causes the flesh to lose the ability to relax to the point of full contact with itself and therefore leaves a tunnel that allows air in and blood to flow. Take the leather and use a leather punch to get a clearly defined round hole. Use a wadcutter on a paper target and notice the clean cut hole that is more defined and has crisp edges. Now as far as exits, a pointy FMJ is going to pierce the skin in the opposite way upon exiting, pushing it away from the skin and making a hole that folds outward. It is also less likely to pull the surrounding skin from the muscle. A flat point with a cutting egde will have enough surface area to tear skin away from flesh just a moment before it punches a hole. Because of the stretch created on the skin, the exit hole is often a bit smaller than the entry. Pointy FMJs can go through a bone without breaking it and can easily deflect and lose their course to travel in another direction within the animal. This could result in a non-lethal wound. Wide nosed solids are more likely to break bones due to the surface area of contact and are less subjected to deflection within the animal. Both types will tumble if they lose their centrifugal force or if the center of rotation is set off and they begin to yaw (the back is rotating around a larger axis than the nose). With FMJ' s and sometimes wide flat solids it is this "tumbling" that often causes the most damage internally. An expanding bullet is doing 3 things differently. One, it is making a funnel shaped hole becoming wider as it travels (to a point). At some point the funnel is tearing the flesh too wide and it cannot reseal itself. Second, the rough edges (lead core) or petals (Barnes, Thor, Rhino, Starfire, Extreme, etc) are chopping as it rotates, leaving frayed ends of flesh that cannot form a seal if it makes contact with other flesh again. Third, secondary bits and pieces are thrown in a spiral pattern causing secondary damage to vessels, capillaries, veins, arteries and nerves. Even a .243 of good quality will expand 1.5X its original diameter making it .365 (bigger than a .308 FMJ, and the same as a 9.3mm flat point solid). The exit pulls skin from the flesh and the exit hole is substantial enough that it cannot seal. A quick anotomical and physiological note: lungs and liver heal extremley quickly. A small hole in one lung even two can result in a recovered animal under the right circumstances. Same with a minor amount of damage to the liver. I've recovered animals that had the lower lobe of a lung or two damaged from a previous shot some weeks or months before! Case in point, the "devil 4 horn" was shot with a 303 Brit 180 grain 3X over two days. A week later it was shot with a 45 Colt once. Three weeks later it was shot with a 7mm Rem Mag and finally killed. Evidence showed the 303's did not expand at all. The critter has one lung working and it was torn at the back at one point but clearly was able to inflate. One 303 missed the spinal cord by less than a bullet diameter. The 45 Colt broke a shoulder and exited the brisket. NONE of these bullets showed any sign of expansion on this 70 lbs or so critter. This may be attributed to the low velocity and soft, thin animal. I am convinced an expanding bullet in the lung would have torn it away from the hoses and caused much more blood loss, and if the bullet under the spine expanded just 3/10's of an inch it would have serrated the spinal cord.

[86er]

The second part of your post regarding the "factory load Rem 405 grain 45-70". I see but two entries for this load in 1000 Tags Filled by Joe Riekers and John C. Clark. One was a whitetail at 100 yds that was hit in the shoulder and dropped on the spot. The other is a bison that was hit in the neck at 50 yds and dropped on the spot. My own personal use is limited but the results were consistent enough for me to draw some conclusions. While working with the Dept of Environmental Conservation on nuisance bear control I used some of the Rem factory ammo on two black bears around 120-150 pound each. One bear had the bullet exit just under the arms on a broadside shot. It ran a short distance and died. The entry and exit holes were not large and the internal damage not extensive. The next bear was hit quartering to me inside the shoulder. The bullet came to rest behind the last rib on the opposite side. Penetration was about 25". The bullet hardly expanded with the jacket peeling down to expose more lead and the lead rounding off so the whole bullet looked like a cylinder (no taper to the tip). These loads showed 1330 fps out of my 22" barrel rifle and the shots were both between 25 and 50 yards. Let me give two comparisons of these bullets loaded to a different velocity. Tim Sundles loaded some to 2000 fps for me to try on a bear hunt. A 200 pound bear strolled in at 22 yards. I was in a tree and shooting downward. The first shot hit the high shoulder and the bear rolled forward. The second shot hit the bear quartering away behind the leg and it rolled sideways. It got up and I hit it again low in the chest. As it ran past the tree I was in I shot straight down and hit it low in the back. When I went to look for it the little bugger ran out of a thicket, nocked me down and his paw cut my face and tore my shirt pocket off, then got caught on the peep sight of the rifle, ripping it off. I fired at his mass as he went away using only the front sight centered on him. What we found was that only one bullet exited through the belly and pulled out some intestines. All the others were inside, and they were all flat as pancakes and did not penetrate that much. I concluded that 2000 fps was too much for close range impact with this bullet. Next, we loaded some to a MV of 1650 fps. Ricky shot a bull oryx as it ran by, a great running shot that hit behind the shoulder. He quickly shot again as the animal pauses ever so briefly upon receiving the first shot. It got shot one more time although I can't recall the animals positioning. The oryx weighed right under 400 pounds and was shot from about 60 yds to 70 yard between the shots. One bullet exited and two did not. The recovered bullets were pretty well expanded, though not a neat round mushroom dome. The penetration was from side to side on the oryx, estimating about 16 inches. It seems that the best MV to get controlled expansion and retain penetration is somewhere in the 1500-1700 fps range making the impact velocity at 100 yds around 1350 fps and add 100 fps at 50 yds, for a loss of about 50 fps per 25 yds of travel out to about 200 yds. I think the 405 Rem CL is a good bullet for its simplicity and price and with personal expectations clearly defined you can figure out just how to load it to make it act like you prefer.

[getitdone1]

Thanks for that 86er. Appears it comes down to the "wound channel" usually being much bigger with the expanding SP bullet (assuming enough speed) and therefore you do more damage and hence kill more readily with an expanding/mushrooming bullet. Also, as we've all read, the expanded bullet often will not go all the way through the animal thus exerting it's full energy/shock on the animal.

The compromise, as has been said before, would be he Nosler Partition, A-Frame and H-Mantel bullets that mushroom only so far back from nose and no further. This gives deadliness of mushroom or large wound channel while also penetrating better than the typical jacketed, lead soft point bullet.

I've told this before but many years ago my grandmother called on the old crank type phone. (Any of you remember those old telephones?) Short, Long, Short, Long--as I recall. She tells us our dog is fighting with a racoon down in her barn lot. Her place was just across the pasture so I go over there with my Ruger SA 44 mag. The one that preceded the Super Blackhawk. I'd made some bullets with half jacket and pure lead. Swaged them. The coon and dog had been fighting for some time so "adrenalin was up" in both the dog and the coon. I put 2-3 bullets into the body of the coon with no effect. Had to be careful and not shoot the dog. Finally got one into it's brain and of course that did the job. On that small of an animal I expect a .243 75 gr HP in the body would have finished him off or at least had a lot more effect than the 44 mag with 240 gr bullets.

So...even with an animal that small shot placement is still very important and even more so with a slow, non-expanding bullet. I seen one ground hog, shot with a 22-250 dragging nearly all of its guts and still getting back down in it's hole. When animals this small can be so hard to kill fast makes you really wonder what you'd need with an enraged grizzly.

Off the subject but that Ruger 44 mag gave me more pain in one ear than any other gun. I shot it in prone position, no hearing protection, and the pain in my left ear from the muzzle blast was pretty severe. That was in my "the bigger the boom, the better" days.

Don