Lever gun factory assembly line sabotage.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:30 am

In 1980 I traded a Dan Wesson .357 revolver with an extra barrel for a brand new Winchester 94 Trapper in 30-30.
The little Trapper had the nicest finish of all the post-64s I've owned and a decently smooth action. The only immediate problem was a very heavy trigger pull.

My Glendale AZ friend and I took it and my other 94 Carbine out to the desert to shoot. We immediately started have jams with the new Trapper.
It would feed from the magazine to the chamber perfectly.
Fire perfectly, and sometimes open and eject perfectly.
But occasionally, way to often, it would jam after firing.
The lever would unlock and drop a short distance, but the bolt would not move more than an 1/16" or so.
This happened with factory ammo. Remember, I have a tradition of testing new or new to me guns with factory ammo.
And to complicate things, this would only happen when firing live ammo, we could not make it happen otherwise.

So since we had our table set up we put out some rags and tore the little Trapper apart. We looked at each and every part. We couldn't see anything wrong. Nothing stood out as defective or wrong.
When we put it back together it continued to jam.

At this point we were frustrated to the max. Something was wrong, it was simple and I knew it, but I couldn't find it.

So we took the Trapper apart again, and took the Carbine apart too. Compared each and every part side by side. Yet we still couldn't see what we were looking for. Put them back together again and still the Trapper would jam more often than not.

By this time, as each of us would shoot it and clear the jam, we discovered that shaking it as we tilted the action to the right always cleared it. So, back to the diagnostic board.
One part at a time we performed a minds eye function test. What part could move and jam the gun up. Nothing really came to mind.

So I started to take it apart again. ( Kind of sounds like a Dr. House episode don't it? ) I had it mostly apart and took out the lever to bolt pin retaining screw. As I laid it on the table the sun reflected on the small end of it. This seemed strange to me because every other one of these screws was always totally blued. They are not a super critical fit, so there's no need to file on them.

I looked it over real carefully and saw that the end of the screw had been ground down. I took the screw out of the other 94 and compared them. The one from my new Trapper had been shortened. Deliberately from what I could see. So I put the screw from my Carbine into the Trapper and then test fired it. It functioned perfectly. For the rest of the afternoon we shot the Trapper as much as we could. It never missed a beat.
What was happening is that each time we'd fire the Trapper the recoil would cause the lever pin to move to the left into it's removal hole and jam the action closed.

That afternoon on the way back home I stopped at a gun smith and bought three of the lever pin retaining screws.
When I told the gunsmith what had happened and showed him the screw, his comment was: sabotage.

So sometimes I wonder how many "defective" guns are actually sabotaged by a disgruntled employee?

Since that hot summer day in 1980 my 30-30 Trapper has never missed a beat. The only work ever done on it was a trigger job, and the installation of Williams FP 94/36 sight.

I've never run into another case of assembly line sabotage thankfully, but I always remember back to that day when ever I find a cranky 94.

Joe

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:44 am

Joe, this story makes me feel sad.

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:58 am

sabot: French word for wooden shoe.
sabotage: word for when a wooden shoe was used to damage equipment.

Quinn

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:11 pm

FWiedner wrote:Joe, this story makes me feel sad.

I kinda felt the same way then. But after replacing the screw I eventually got over it.
I don't think this happens very much, but I thought it would be a good story to tell considering all the little problems we've talked about the last couple years.

Quinn,
So you think the assembler use his wooden shoe to muck up the screw???

Joe

Kilroy6644 · Post by **Kilroy6644** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:22 pm

J Miller wrote:Quinn,
So you think the assembler use his wooden shoe to muck up the screw???

Joe

Well, wouldn't you feel a bit mischevious if you had to wear wooden shoes to work?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:38 pm

Kilroy6644 wrote:
J Miller wrote:Quinn,
So you think the assembler use his wooden shoe to muck up the screw???
Joe
Well, wouldn't you feel a bit mischevious if you had to wear wooden shoes to work?

No, sorta cloggish!

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:06 pm

The "5% of the population" that we've all heard about exists throughout the population. That extends to employees of any business. Somebody may have had their cranky pants on the day the Trapper was assembled.

In my experience, nearly almost any problems I've had with firearms have been due to previous owners making adjustments or modifications. Probably not in your Trapper's instance, seeing it was new. Folks that don't know which end of a Crescent wrench goes on a bolthead should not be attempting home gunsmithing. For example, NO WAY would I purchase a used home-built AK . . . but I digress.

I think it's the same fellers that feel compelled to take an ill-fitting screwdriver to screwheads on a firearm. "Doh . . . maybe I'll take this apart . . . hold my beer . . . " Or perhaps the owner's manuals instruct these people to bugger up the screwheads. Something compells them to do so; so many guns have buggered screws.

Noah

JB · Post by JB » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:15 pm

I've got an uncle who's a retired auto worker. He talks about people doing all sorts of sabotage by the autoworkers to slow down or stop the assembly lines. I'm sure it has happened in the firearms business as well.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:45 pm

JB wrote:I've got an uncle who's a retired auto worker. He talks about people doing all sorts of sabotage by the autoworkers to slow down or stop the assembly lines. I'm sure it has happened in the firearms business as well.

I saw that happen at a Ford factory here in OH. I was teaching a home repair class and had one of the maint. guys in my class. One day he got called out of class to help w/ some emergency. When I asked during the next class what had happened he told me that someone had thrown a stick of butter into one of the machines to screw it up. I asked why someone would do such a thing he told me that if it takes long enough to make repairs they may get sent home early. Needles to say I was shocked. Then he says " it happes all the time".

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:55 pm

Such things could be individual and unintentional lapses in QC also. For instance...say a guy puts the cover screw over the pin but the screw is slightly too long and binds the action. So, being a newbie or maybe it's 8AM on Monday, he grinds the screw down too far in an attempt to fix it, maybe it cycles for him and he passes it on, but unknowingly has caused the same binding problem with the too short cover screw, which lets the pin slide out. I'm betting that if it was sabotage, a guy would have done something a little more mean, as that problem is easily fixed. Probably just a mistake which got missed by a worker and the Quality Control dept.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:15 pm

Could of been an accident. But I've had a bunch of 94s and not one had a trimmed or filed pin stop screw. And the one I replaced it with did not require any trimming.

Could of been, but I don't think so.

Joe

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:15 pm

C. Cash wrote:Such things could be individual and unintentional lapses in QC also. For instance...say a guy puts the cover screw over the pin but the screw is slightly too long and binds the action. So, being a newbie or maybe it's 8AM on Monday, he grinds the screw down too far in an attempt to fix it, maybe it cycles for him and he passes it on, but unknowingly has caused the same binding problem with the too short cover screw, which lets the pin slide out. I'm betting that if it was sabotage, a guy would have done something a little more mean, as that problem is easily fixed. Probably just a mistake which got missed by a worker and the Quality Control dept.

J Miller wrote:Could of been an accident. But I've had a bunch of 94s and not one had a trimmed or filed pin stop screw. And the one I replaced it with did not require any trimming.

Could of been, but I don't think so.

Joe

Joe,
They all make bad ones sooner or later. I've seen it with the 94's and I see this with the Rossi's all the time. The screws are consistant but on occassion the hole in the frame is too deep. Rossi's solution is to just not tighten the screw in all the way. Folks find the loose screw and tighten it and find that the gun locks up because the plug screw is now bound into the bolt.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:27 pm

Well, lets look at this a bit closer.

Since I still have the shortened pin stop screw, and the two extra new ones I haven't used yet, and a good used one, I measured them

Measured from the back side of the screw head they measure:
New: .210", .2125"
Used: .210"

Shortened: .184"

A difference of .026" between the shortened one and the new and used unaltered ones.

The unaltered ones are totally blued and have circular machine marks on the end from the lathe that made them. The altered one is unblued on the end and has crosswise marks where it was shortened.

Since the brand new unaltered one fit perfectly as is, and has been functioning perfectly for 27 years, in this case I'm gonna agree with the gunsmith that sold me the new screws so many years ago and call this one sabotage.

If anybody wants I'll try to get some pics of the offending screw and maybe what I'm saying will be clearer.

Joe

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:17 pm

You never know - but I doubt it was intentional sabotage. I've worked in manufacturing for 30 years and have seen some wild mistakes but it's seldom malicious. More often, it's simple stupidity or cutting corners.

Some scenarios:
A. Their screw supplier shut them down because they didn't pay the bill so operators were grinding parts on the line, freehand...
B. They use the same screw on three models but one of them takes a shorter version. The bins got mixed on the line and the wrong one was put in your gun...
C. The day shift guy misassembled a bunch of guns and the night shift guy was stuck reworking them. He got tired about 4 in the morning and missed one...
D. You got the training gun - you know, the one that the new operators have to put together to prove they can. Someone set it against the wall and packed it for shipment...
E. You got a rebuilt gun. It was originally sent to Academy Sports/Cabela's/Bass Pro but some schmuck couldn't hit that buck deer so he returned it after the season for credit. The factory couldn't figure out what was wrong with it so the repair shop ground the end off that particular screw just because it looked like the right thing to do...
F. Winchester used to be a union shop. I visited there once on business. The whistle blew and everyone stopped immediately. We might theorize that the operator ground your screw once before coffee break and once after - .013 too much each time...

I have more but I'll stop...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:22 pm

I hear RIDE OF THE VALKYRIES and helicopters........Black ones....

Jayhawker · Post by **Jayhawker** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:24 pm

So, let me get this straight. You're just now grumbling about something that happened 27 years ago?

Or did something else happen to resurrect this distant memory?

edited to add smilies.....I was trying to be humorous but I don't think it got taken that way.

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:52 pm

Joe,

Read this earlier in the day, and as always the case been thinking about it. Maybe the assembly line person just put the "Bad" screw in without knowing any better. It fit, so they didn't care, nor did they care that when you got the rifle to the range, it didn't function properly. Hard to believe someone would do that knowing the rifle wouldn't function.

But then again there are all kinds out there.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:58 pm

OK, I'm just trying to tell a story about what happened to one of my guns.

A bunch of you guys have griped and bitched and whined and complained about your guns and we all try to cajole and help you out.

This was a deliberate act of manufacturing sabotage. I've owned more than enough of these Winchester lever guns to know how the d.a.m.n. things are put together and to be able to differentiate between a boo boo and something that was done on purpose.

So if you don't believe me, fine. But don't try to twist and manipulate me into a subject change and then try to intimidate me because this happened 27 years ago.

As a matter of fact all of you can just quit complaining about your defective Winchesters, Marlins, and what ever.

If I can't tell my story, neither can you.

J

e

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:41 pm

I think it is out of warranty.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:36 pm

Joe, I..I'm sorry...I did try the Vulcan Mind Meld, but you slipped out of it....

I know how you feel, though....In first grade, that little slider on the pencil box broke after just a couple days and I was the laughing stock at Etna Road Elem. School

We were just starting to get Chinese stuff, and I was convinced that it was a plot to ruin children the the USofA by ruining their educations.......Arrrghhh and Avast, Ye Heathen Scum

Ya's owes me a pencil box, dangit

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:20 pm

I for one love a mechanical mystery. I don't see any reason to give Joe a hard time over this(unless you fellas are like my wife and we're really talking about something else). It could really be as he thinks, maybe the other way around, but interesting to think about. And this IS about Leverguns!

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:31 pm

Joe, thank you for sharing the story. It's about things that did, can and do happen. It's even on topic.

I love to read of mysteries solved to boot!

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:32 pm

Back in the 60`s a friend bought a new Cadillac car. Every time he turned a sharp left turn there was a clunk in the left side. The dealer finally found the problem. A beer bottle was left inside the door from the factory.

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:07 pm

Joe;
Enjoyed the story - and what it revealed about you. But don't worry, You don't need to keep it a secret. I sometimes enjoy watching House with his "cut and try" medicine, also. I actually thought House seemed appropriate in/for your story!

Grace and Peace.

cas · Post by **cas** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:17 am

Chuck 100 yd wrote:Back in the 60`s a friend bought a new Cadillac car. Every time he turned a sharp left turn there was a clunk in the left side. The dealer finally found the problem. A beer bottle was left inside the door from the factory.

That reminded me of the story my father told me about removing the back seat of his '57 Chevy. Behind the seat was a brown paper lunch bag with some crumpled up wax paper that obviously had a sandwich wrapped in it, and an empty bottle inside it.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:58 am

Joe, I appreciated your story and your troubleshooting techniques. Sometimes you never can tell which direction these threads are going to take.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:11 pm

Sheesh!!! How many guns have I sold because they just didnt work quite right out of the box? Maybe I should have taken the time to look for sabotage that could be fixed.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:18 pm

Hey, guys, I'm sorry about being so cranky. KirkD has it dead right. Cabin fever and a lot of other b.s. just got to me.

I was trying to post a true lever guns story. I didn't mean to get into a fuss.

This could be a case of just sticking the part in without checking it. And if the end of the screw ( I am going to post some pics ) was blued but short I would actually think that.
Or it could be a case of someone trying to touch up a slightly out of spec part but going too far.
Or it could be a case of sabotage.

Since the orangutan that assembled this gun 27 years ago is long retired we'll never really know.

Joe

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:41 pm

Joe, no worries......understood! I am about to climb the walls.....3 little ones(one sick), snowed/iced in with no other adult in sight to talk to. Snow is coming down in buckets and will continue into tommorow. Got 44 Mags waiting to be loaded, 356 Win. and 22's that need to be shot, and no way/time to do it! Surrounded by people from the radical left who would rather shave their heads with a cheese grader than talk to the guy with the NRA stickers on his truck: I'm thoroughly surrounded, iced in and trapped in more ways than one, with no way out in sight, with my whole family back in(mostly) sunny Arizona!!!!

Oh well....any day that I spend upright is good a good day, and better and warmer times are comin'!!!!!!!

Hope you start feeling the same.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:53 pm

C.Cash.

If you wanna b.s. a bit off forum shoot me an email. BgKatt2-at-outdrs-dot-net. I'll be here most of the day. I might sneak out to one of the indoor ranges, but I doubt it. I'm not snowed in, but I know about the lefties and not having anybody else to talk too. Been in this same house for 6 years and only know one neighbor. And I'd probably get in a lot of trouble if I payed her too much attention.

Sorry to hear about your little one being sick.. Hope he/she recovers quick.

Joe

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:11 pm

Thanks Joe...appreciate that. I am at cashfam4@msn.com and feel free to do the same.

If anything, we should be passing job info back and forth so we can get to sunnier climes and better shooting weather!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:36 pm

If anything, we should be passing job info back and forth so we can get to sunnier climes and better shooting weather! Smile

Not a bad idea. But I really don't know anything about the job market in central IL. I've been out of it for a long time.
Plus all I am is a glorified light delivery driver so anything with skills is above my intelligence level.

Joe

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:23 pm

Joe,

No big deal! Everyone needs to vent on occasion. we all look up to you, and totally understand.

cowboykell · Post by **cowboykell** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:52 pm

J Miller " Been in the same house for 6 years and only know one neighbor.".....Advanced Levergunner - 6122 posts. Let me guess....

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:29 am

I once bought a Hornady Pistol Powder Measure with a full set of bushings. When I lined them up I noticed that one was visibly shorter than the others. This could have lead to a dangerous overload. When I informed Hornady they sent me another in exchange.

Fortunately I have never been paranoid enough to believe this was a deliberate act of sabotage. It was just something that slipped through quality control.

I once bought an RCBS sizing die that was so warped that it would not screw into the press. RCBS made good. At no time did I suspect sabotage.

When products are mass produced things sometime happen.

Life is so much more pleasant when one cuts the world a little slack. Remember there is only one who is perfect and it is not us.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:34 am

cowboykell wrote:J Miller " Been in the same house for 6 years and only know one neighbor.".....Advanced Levergunner - 6122 posts. Let me guess....

Huh ............