leverguns science experiment

[Ysabel Kid's Kid]

Hi guys!

I am going to do a science project this year in school. I asked my teacher if I could do one that involved shooting, and got permission to, as long as my Dad supervised me. I am going to test how using different amounts of gun powder affect how a bullet lands on a target. Best of all, I'm going to use a levergun. We're going to shoot my Dad's Marlin 1894c, shooting 38 special bullets.

Changing the gun powder amount will be the only variable. I am going to dig thru Dad's brass to find ones made by the same company. We'll use the same weight and type of bullet too. Same primers too.

So, will the bullet hit higher or lower as I increase the gun powder charge? Do you have a recommendation on the kind of gun powder we should use. Dad thinks Unigue powder would be best.

Thanks guys!!!

[rjohns94]

Unique is a good powder to use. What do you think the bullet will do as velocity will increase?

[Ysabel Kid's Kid]

Unique is a good powder to use. What do you think the bullet will do as velocity will increase?

I think it will hit higher on the target if I am at the same spot. Dad won't tell me. He says I need to do some research and then we will see! Coming here is some of my research!!!

[Old Savage]

Y2K - that depends on the rifle and cartridge used and the distance - I have seen it both ways. I would think with your choice it will shoot flatter with more powder. Of course the proof is in the pudding or in this case in the shooting.

[jhrosier]

I would agree that Unique is a good powder for your test.
It is consistent and safe over a wide range of loads from light to heavy.

When you measure your results, are you looking at group size or vertical point of impact?

Please post the report of the test and your conclusions here.

Jack

[Tycer]

Y2K,

Do you think the bullet will just move up and down? Will the bullets move side to side? Will group sizes change?

Do a youtube search for slow motion rifle or high speed rifle or high speed bullet or slow motion bullet or barrel flex and watch the rifles movement.

Here's one. Watch the barrel near the end of the video when you get to see the whole gun. Now this is a 50 BMG and not a .38 Special so you won't get that much flex but it does flex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5pVya7eask

Barrel harmonics.

I agree with using Unique.

[AJMD429]

If there is a powder listed in the loading manuals for .38 S&W and .38 Special and .357 Magnum, that would be a pretty versatile and ideal powder.

I went to the International Science Fair with my project in 10th grade ( ), and one thing that the good judges will look for in your 'conclusions' section, along with what you found as far as results, is your own 'critique' of potential weaknesses of the experiment. In other words, what other variables could have been present that you did NOT account for, or what sort of issues could affect results that were not measured, or perhaps not even measurable. They also want to know are there 'broader' conclusions you might draw from your results, or what further application it could have (i.e. is it only applicable to leverguns, or all guns, or would anything learned apply to rockets, baseballs, other projectiles, etc.), and what 'further research' it might suggest would be fruitful.

Don't let your dad hurt himself playing around with your guns, though...

[Old No7]

Sounds like a great project to me Y2K!

Glad you're using variations in powder as a variable, because this is what happens when the bullets are undersized in a rifle...

Cowboy - Keyholes.jpg

These were 0.375" bullets fired in a Marlin .38-55 -- which typically takes 0.379" or 0.380" lead bullets. I thought the bases might "slug up" enough (I bought those bullets for a low, low price), but as you can see, that didn't happen..............

I'm glad to hear your teacher -- and of course, your Dad -- support you on this project! (Wow, there is hope for America yet!)

I sure wish I lived closer, as I would gladly loan you my Chrony chronograph so you could do statistics on how the velocities changed as the powder charges increased.

Good luck, and tight groups!

Old No7

[Rusty]

Congratulations on being able to choose a project where you could use a levergun. When Rusty Jr. was in school we did a science project where we built a pneumatic "spud gun" of sorts. Our question in physics terms was "will double the amount of energy result in double the amount of work?" Our gun used a large (3") section of pvc pipe connected to a smaller section of pipe with a ball valve and galvanized pipe joining the two.It was much like a large air rifle. We were able to measure the amount of power in psi, then we could measure the distance we could propel a flashlight battery.

IIRC Jr. got a blue ribbon for that project.

[AJMD429]

I sure wish I lived closer, as I would gladly loan you my Chrony chronograph so you could do statistics on how the velocities changed as the powder charges increased.

If you can swing the $$ for a chronograph, it would really give you lots more 'data', and might be a big help. The 'impact' in elevation can of course be affected by the shooter and by many other variables, but the 'velocity' would help substantiate your conclusions, as you could show that the 'low' shots correlated with low velocity, and weren't just a matter of differences in gun recoil or whatever.

I think my 'Chrony' was about $75; it isn't fancy, but it does what I need..!

[Nath]

Very impressed

Enjoy it

Nath.

[Rusty]

Yes this would be a good excuse for YK to buy a Chrony. Maybe he should build a ballistic pendulum too. I was thinking about that last night. If you built a ballistic pendulum and made it so there was a marker at the top to make a graph at the same time. It would give more graphic information to put on the showboard besides just the spread sheets. Graphics = points in a science fair.

[w30wcf]

YKK,
Neat! Great project. Will you be using
1.) .38 Special cartridge cases?
2.) What bullet?
3.) Different Powders to achieve different velocities?
4.) Distance(s)?

The standard .38 Special factory loading has been 3.5 grs. of Bullseye under a 158 gr. lead alloy bullet.
Sometimes a higher velocity round may hit lower on the target than one running 300 + f.p.s. less since
the bullet exits the barrel quicker (less muzzle lift before exit)....and sometimes not....depending on the gun, caliber, distance......

Have fun!
w30wcf

[2ndovc]

I will second the vote for Bullseye.
I've been loading 3.5 or 3.8 grains of that powder with a 158 gr. bullet since I was about your age.
Always accurate.

jb

[Batman1939]

Actually, you have more than one variable in the experiment. Surely there is going to be some shot-to-shot variation due to your shooting technique (i.e. aiming) to name just one other. So, you should shoot several shots with each loading and use the average point of impact as your value for each variation of your "main variable", which will be the amount of powder in the charge. You probably planned to do this already--makes for a better experiment (and more fun).

Good luck with your experiment !!

[gundownunder]

I would not see Bullseye as suitable for this experiment as there is not enough variance between the min and max loads. If we assume that he will use the .38 standard of a 158 grain SWC then Bullseye loads are listed in Lees 2nd edition as 3.5 - 3.6 grains, Unique is not much better at 4.0 - 4.3 grains. I would suggest a powder like 4227 which goes from 9.0 to 10.0 grains, which makes more room for variable testing (and he gets to shoot more bullets too )

Oh yeah, and the kids kid should give thanks that he lives in the good old US of A because if he proposed a school experiment like this in Australia the school would probably call the cops, the psychiatrist, and his parents, and then expel him from school for being some kind of dangerous, radical, nutter.

[Griff]

Although I agree, Bullseye has a narrower range of application in the .38Spl. than does Unique. However, one of my books does show a wider band for Bullseye. (It's an old Lyman manual that shows a minimum of 2 grains for 500 fps up to 3.5 grains for 826 fps). None of my newer books show a lead load for a .38Spl +P, I don't think a well lubed bullet would lead even outta a carbine at +P velocities.

However, w30wcf points out a very potential outcome. Probably a more demonstrable effect with handguns vs. a rifle or carbine, but very real.

A chronograph would help ensure that your loads were consistent. I wouldn't use less than 5 shots per load density to establish the median for that for load.

Good luck and enjoy... be sure to share your findings with us after you get done with the science fair.

[the telegraphist]

Goodonya young fellah, hope you learn heaps. Unique is a good powder, might I suggest after your experiments with this powder you do the same with 2400 and compare results and come to conslusions regarding a quickish powder with a slower one. Felt recoil and accuracy as well as position on target of the falling shot.

All the best

Down-under

[Chas.]

A couple of things you might keep in mind.

First, gravity begins pulling that bullet down the instant it leaves the barrel, no matter how fast it's going.

Second, the amount it pulls the bullet down, or drop, depends on how long that bullet is in the air before it hits the target.

The length of time it's in the air depends on the speed of the bullet - the slower it is, the more time gravity can pull it down.